Simple gain suggestions for n/a owners-
12-27-07, 11:18 AM
#26
^Not Necessarily, so many things in porting can vary the flow of air and may not increase it as much as you might think.
But back on topic, I'm actually pretty amazed at that. What all did you remove exactly? Just the fans and clutch?
Also since you're running a haltech, why not use a Second gen CAS to control your timing through the hlatech as oppose to just the distributor? Maybe you can tweak a few more ponies like that.
But back on topic, I'm actually pretty amazed at that. What all did you remove exactly? Just the fans and clutch?
Also since you're running a haltech, why not use a Second gen CAS to control your timing through the hlatech as oppose to just the distributor? Maybe you can tweak a few more ponies like that.
12-27-07, 03:58 PM
#27
^Not Necessarily, so many things in porting can vary the flow of air and may not increase it as much as you might think.
But back on topic, I'm actually pretty amazed at that. What all did you remove exactly? Just the fans and clutch?
Also since you're running a haltech, why not use a Second gen CAS to control your timing through the hlatech as oppose to just the distributor? Maybe you can tweak a few more ponies like that.
But back on topic, I'm actually pretty amazed at that. What all did you remove exactly? Just the fans and clutch?
Also since you're running a haltech, why not use a Second gen CAS to control your timing through the hlatech as oppose to just the distributor? Maybe you can tweak a few more ponies like that.
12-27-07, 07:17 PM
#28
I thought a solid rebuild w/ porting, exhaust upgrades and good tuning were pretty much taken as a given for n/a performance. With my 13b-re, nice street port, high compression rotors, decent exhaust, and haltech, it layed down 174rwhp/ 135rwtq. Know how I got it to 206rwhp/152rwtq from there? With those gimmicks listed above. I will continue to stick with them any time. And this is with a 1st gen distributer. Please dont take me as bragging, but I was simply trying to help others get a little more power. When you have n/a, there is no boost **** to just "turn it up". So its hard, small gains after the big chunk is made.
Merry Christmas Rx-owners!
Merry Christmas Rx-owners!
Don't defend yourself so much Logan. Alot of us know what your capable of doing. People who know anything about perfomance upgrades or have an understanding of the science behind air flow dynamics wouldn't call these upgrades gimmicks. In the end it's knowing what the hell your doing. The funny thing here on this forum is most people really don't know why something works the way it does. They just know that if you do this...this is what happens but yet they couldn't even explain in detail why it worked the way it did. LOL so so funny!
Peace and thx for sharing proven info!
12-27-07, 07:19 PM
#29
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well, i know i need more of a life because of the amount of time i spend reading on this (and other) forums, but maybe some of you need to spend more time, too. you need to lighten up a bit. everything GtoRx7 has been backed up with dyno sheets already - some of those things have been "dyno-proven" for about 10 years now. besides, not to say it makes him "God", but i haven't seen any of the skeptics in this thread build anything near to what he has. honestly, that sounded a lot more harsh than i meant it, but i'm just saying he's probably not one of the guys that gonna post something just to increase his post count. this thread has merit.
Just got to figure out this fuel injection stuff out. lol
12-27-07, 07:26 PM
#30
Dude give me a break you cannot increase your hp by removing a fan! And there is no way it would net you 8-12hp...Its the same thing as installing a light weight flywheel it gives you no hp increase but lighten's up the rotating assembly.
Please don't post this garbage.
Please don't post this garbage.
Dude please educate yourself before you call someone out. Light weight flywheels lower the rotational inertia. This allows the engine to rev faster. The fan puts more drag on the engine because it's moving air. This puts more load on the engine therefore causing a slight loss of power.
12-27-07, 08:59 PM
#31
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1) Clutch fan removal, electric fan install. Hp gain of 8-12 rwhp.
Dude please educate yourself before you call someone out. Light weight flywheels lower the rotational inertia. This allows the engine to rev faster. The fan puts more drag on the engine because it's moving air. This puts more load on the engine therefore causing a slight loss of power.
This is what I think of the e-fan and the clutch fan debate...
The Electric Fan by RotaMan99
This is a summerized version of what I am talking about on that page
Originally Posted by RotaMan99
The electric fan and clutch fan both have their pros and cons. The electric fan will be over kill for most engines at idle or low speed crusing. An electric fan that pulls 15A will consume about .40 hp with a 50% efficient alternator so while the electric fan is powered, it will also require more mechanical power from the engine then the clutch fan during normal driving conditions. When the electric fan is off, you have zero power loss and only gained any amount of power that could have been taken by either the e-fan or clutch fan.
Mazda designed the stock clutch fan system to work with the rotary engine and it works very well and does not need to be replaced with an electric fan if there is nothing wrong with it or if the extra space is not needed.
The amount of HP or HEAT the engine creates at the times the clutch fan needs to be used is very small so you should not need MORE CFM then what the stock clutch fan is capable of.
If you have cooling issues, you probably should look into other areas of the cooling system.
The electric fan is capable of more cfm for less mechanical power. The stock clutch fan would require about 2hp to move 2500 CFM of air. An electric fan will only require about .30-.50 hp to move the same if not more air.
Stick with the stock clutch fan if you are not having issues, and if you are, check the rest of the cooling system. An electric fan may not solve your cooling issues. The only time I can see an electric fan being more beneficial is at low rpms where the clutch fan is much less effective and if you have a FMIC. Other then that, you are only cleaning up the engine bay which could be very important
Mazda designed the stock clutch fan system to work with the rotary engine and it works very well and does not need to be replaced with an electric fan if there is nothing wrong with it or if the extra space is not needed.
The amount of HP or HEAT the engine creates at the times the clutch fan needs to be used is very small so you should not need MORE CFM then what the stock clutch fan is capable of.
If you have cooling issues, you probably should look into other areas of the cooling system.
The electric fan is capable of more cfm for less mechanical power. The stock clutch fan would require about 2hp to move 2500 CFM of air. An electric fan will only require about .30-.50 hp to move the same if not more air.
Stick with the stock clutch fan if you are not having issues, and if you are, check the rest of the cooling system. An electric fan may not solve your cooling issues. The only time I can see an electric fan being more beneficial is at low rpms where the clutch fan is much less effective and if you have a FMIC. Other then that, you are only cleaning up the engine bay which could be very important
S4 Fan CFM estimation
Just by reading the link right above this, there is no way you could even gain 2 hp
I don't know about all the other stuff you listed, may be true but I have no experience in those areas....
Last edited by RotaMan99; 12-27-07 at 09:15 PM.
12-27-07, 09:14 PM
#32
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Dude give me a break you cannot increase your hp by removing a fan! And there is no way it would net you 8-12hp...Its the same thing as installing a light weight flywheel it gives you no hp increase but lighten's up the rotating assembly.
Please don't post this garbage.
Please don't post this garbage.
12-28-07, 07:39 PM
#33
BS flag here. No possible way you can gain 8-12 rwhp by doing this. Maybe 1-2 when the e-fan is OFF.
Where do you think the electrical power to power the e-fan is coming from ? The Alternator, how does the alternator generate power? By converting mechanical energy to electrical energy.
This is what I think of the e-fan and the clutch fan debate...
The Electric Fan by RotaMan99
This is a summerized version of what I am talking about on that page
Also read this
S4 Fan CFM estimation
Just by reading the link right above this, there is no way you could even gain 2 hp
I don't know about all the other stuff you listed, may be true but I have no experience in those areas....
Where do you think the electrical power to power the e-fan is coming from ? The Alternator, how does the alternator generate power? By converting mechanical energy to electrical energy.
This is what I think of the e-fan and the clutch fan debate...
The Electric Fan by RotaMan99
This is a summerized version of what I am talking about on that page
Also read this
S4 Fan CFM estimation
Just by reading the link right above this, there is no way you could even gain 2 hp
I don't know about all the other stuff you listed, may be true but I have no experience in those areas....
Nice write up you got there about the mechanical vs electrical fan debate. I've always personally liked the mechanical fans better for the reason stated.
12-28-07, 10:19 PM
#34
To add to my above post, the info you provided is nice but you are comparing hp differences under cruising conditions. This thread is about what changes could be made to increase your PEAK hp. In this case the electrical fan is more beneficial than the mechanical one since the mechanical fan will never fully disengage. Personally I would trade the few ponies you loose with the mechanical fan and gain the extra full time cooling benefits. With the mechanical fan you have continuous air flow throughout the engine bay (which is great for engine accessories). GTO is providing dyno proven info, so far your just guessing. Is it really necessary to call BS if you yourself don't have any hard numbers for prove someone wrong?
Last edited by t-von; 12-28-07 at 10:28 PM.
12-29-07, 06:45 PM
#35
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Nice write up you got there about the mechanical vs electrical fan debate. I've always personally liked the mechanical fans better for the reason stated.
To add to my above post, the info you provided is nice but you are comparing hp differences under cruising conditions. This thread is about what changes could be made to increase your PEAK hp. In this case the electrical fan is more beneficial than the mechanical one since the mechanical fan will never fully disengage. Personally I would trade the few ponies you loose with the mechanical fan and gain the extra full time cooling benefits. With the mechanical fan you have continuous air flow throughout the engine bay (which is great for engine accessories). GTO is providing dyno proven info, so far your just guessing. Is it really necessary to call BS if you yourself don't have any hard numbers for prove someone wrong?
I rear some where that the fan reaches its max rpm at around 3250 engine rpm and wont spin any faster after that. I can't find it in the training manual though. I have to research it again. If this were to be true, then the power taken would be no more then just over 1 hp. If the fan did increase all the way up to 7000 engine rpm, the hp it would take up may not be more then 5hp. That was a guestimate from reading the S4 fan CFM estimation page.
With that said, I do agree the e-fan is more efficient at moving more air with less power taken from the engine.
I saw the dyno results, I don't know what those dynos are showing me. He did not explain what each chart shows.
12-30-07, 06:52 AM
#36
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To add to my post, the clutch usually disengages to an extent as the rpms climb since the clutch cools do to the increased air flow and the not so hot engine while idling. Im sure after a few runs the engine gets fairly warm but the fan wont spin faster then the clutch will let it. The clutch spins the fan at about 80% of the engines rpm at full engagement. that doesn't mean you will see the fan spinning at 6000rpm and 7500 engine rpm. So the power it takes is limited and once it stops spinning any faster, the HP taken does not climb any further.
With that said, the dyno graphs are noted and will be remembered.
With that said, the dyno graphs are noted and will be remembered.
Last edited by RotaMan99; 12-30-07 at 07:02 AM.
12-31-07, 06:42 PM
#38
To add to my post, the clutch usually disengages to an extent as the rpms climb since the clutch cools do to the increased air flow and the not so hot engine while idling. Im sure after a few runs the engine gets fairly warm but the fan wont spin faster then the clutch will let it. The clutch spins the fan at about 80% of the engines rpm at full engagement. that doesn't mean you will see the fan spinning at 6000rpm and 7500 engine rpm. So the power it takes is limited and once it stops spinning any faster, the HP taken does not climb any further.
With that said, the dyno graphs are noted and will be remembered.
With that said, the dyno graphs are noted and will be remembered.
Great info! I always wondered how the clutch worked.
01-01-08, 10:55 AM
#39
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Your Welcome
Im wondering how well the OP's fna clutch worked. If some fluid had leaked out over time, it may not disengage as much as it should. Although, I have only had one clutch fail on me and that was in my 89 GMC truck. It went from working great, to not working at all because ALL the fluid leaked out. So I don't know if only "some" of the fluid can leak out or if it will almost always be that all the fluid will leak out if the clutch fails....
Im wondering how well the OP's fna clutch worked. If some fluid had leaked out over time, it may not disengage as much as it should. Although, I have only had one clutch fail on me and that was in my 89 GMC truck. It went from working great, to not working at all because ALL the fluid leaked out. So I don't know if only "some" of the fluid can leak out or if it will almost always be that all the fluid will leak out if the clutch fails....
01-04-08, 08:43 PM
#40
Bongolio
Dude please educate yourself before you call someone out. Light weight flywheels lower the rotational inertia. This allows the engine to rev faster. The fan puts more drag on the engine because it's moving air. This puts more load on the engine therefore causing a slight loss of power.
Another good example is you have a pump that is 5hp! Now weigh that pump down with a 60lb flywheel! pump turns slow and is sluggish!..Replace 60lb flywheel with 5lb flywheel! Pump spins fast and is quicker!
BUT ITS STILL 5HP!!
Please if you dont understand this then dont post at all!
I only dissagree with the "removing your fan will net you over 12 rwhp"...Other than that i dont see a problem.
01-04-08, 08:44 PM
#41
Bongolio
01-04-08, 11:13 PM
#42
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It will net you hp. It wont increase power made by the engine, but it nets you power at the wheels because it lessens the amount of energy needed to spin it. That results is a NET increase in horsepower, not a gross increase.
BC
BC
01-05-08, 11:20 AM
#44
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to add to my post above, who ever says that installing a lightweight flywheel will increase HP is not entirly wrong as long as they know that the HP produced by the engine does not increase, but the wheel hp does increase.
01-05-08, 11:49 AM
#45
Bongolio
Listen i know what im talking about ive installed lightweight flywheel's on many different car's like 300ZXTT,RX-7,ECLIPSE...ec ec. You may boost faster and your rev's will increase faster but thats it!
And how can you have a RWHP increase with no brake engine hp increase?..You cant its impossible!
Listen im not going to sit here all day and argue with you if some of you cant use alittle logic and understand what really happens when you remove weight from a car!
If you want to believe its gives you RWHP..then fine!
http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/flywhee...heel_works.htm
That link will explain what really happen's when you remove weight from a car!..Note that the article say just like i have that it net's ZERO HP INCREASE!!! But then goes on to explain how removing weight can make your car faster without increasing RWHP.
And again please search and read up on this stuff!!!!
Other than that this is a great thread!! 175ish rwhp is awesome!!!
And how can you have a RWHP increase with no brake engine hp increase?..You cant its impossible!
Listen im not going to sit here all day and argue with you if some of you cant use alittle logic and understand what really happens when you remove weight from a car!
If you want to believe its gives you RWHP..then fine!
http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/flywhee...heel_works.htm
That link will explain what really happen's when you remove weight from a car!..Note that the article say just like i have that it net's ZERO HP INCREASE!!! But then goes on to explain how removing weight can make your car faster without increasing RWHP.
And again please search and read up on this stuff!!!!
Other than that this is a great thread!! 175ish rwhp is awesome!!!
Last edited by KillaKitiie; 01-05-08 at 12:06 PM.
01-05-08, 02:29 PM
#46
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How can you "free up" hp without gaining it at the wheels?
A heavier flywheel takes more power to spin it up to speed there for you will loose HP at the wheels. I can see how peak HP will not change but the HP while accelerating could increase.
That writeup even shows you gains from the lightweight flywheel.
A heavier flywheel takes more power to spin it up to speed there for you will loose HP at the wheels. I can see how peak HP will not change but the HP while accelerating could increase.
That writeup even shows you gains from the lightweight flywheel.
Last edited by RotaMan99; 01-05-08 at 02:46 PM.
01-05-08, 03:28 PM
#49
Bongolio
How can you "free up" hp without gaining it at the wheels?
A heavier flywheel takes more power to spin it up to speed there for you will loose HP at the wheels. I can see how peak HP will not change but the HP while accelerating could increase.
That writeup even shows you gains from the lightweight flywheel.
A heavier flywheel takes more power to spin it up to speed there for you will loose HP at the wheels. I can see how peak HP will not change but the HP while accelerating could increase.
That writeup even shows you gains from the lightweight flywheel.
When you take weight off a vehicle more of the engines power is used to power the rear wheels. This does not mean that The engine makes more hp.
Like i said if you cant understand this i dont know what to tell you.
Ive already explained it clearly enough and provided proof that a lightweight flywheel does not increase RWHP.
You just want to be stubborn.
Adding a lightweight flywheel and removing the fan is benifitial to excelleration..But does not increase HP.
01-05-08, 05:45 PM
#50
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I don't think anyone is saying that a lighter flywheel makes more power. What they're saying is that the engine can get more of that power to the wheels if it has to spin less weight. I believe a RWD car loses about 15% of its power from the engine to the wheels. For example, an S5 NA would make 160hp, but only about 135 would get to the wheels because the engine has to spin the weight of the drivetrain. When you lighten up the flywheel, you remove the weight the engine has to spin, and therefore that 15% loss was just reduced to (just throwing a number out there) 11%. So instead of having 135 at the wheels, you have 142 at the wheels even though the engine is still making the original 160.