renesis porting...different.
renesis porting...different.
i have a 4 port renesis on the way. i plan on porting it to see what i can get out of it until i find a 6 port renesis. (its going into a 1st gen)
so, i will not be extending the port left or right, or any lower. only higher to where the 6 port normally is. and also porting the runner to look like a traditional 13b runner.
i just need to know if/where i will hit water. i will be using devcon to fill these areas also.
from what i have researched, they are the same thing just the top secondary port is not there. wich could just be added. or reshaped...
picture is of a 6 port renesis.
light color is devcon. and dark color is port area.
so, i will not be extending the port left or right, or any lower. only higher to where the 6 port normally is. and also porting the runner to look like a traditional 13b runner.
i just need to know if/where i will hit water. i will be using devcon to fill these areas also.
from what i have researched, they are the same thing just the top secondary port is not there. wich could just be added. or reshaped...
picture is of a 6 port renesis.
light color is devcon. and dark color is port area.
Last edited by sen2two; Jun 25, 2008 at 06:25 PM.
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i could see that motor not having a very long life if those are the plans for it... it would seem that the fill used to change over to 4 port would not have a very long life exposed to the engine like that...
He's not talking about filling in a 6 port engine to make it a 4 port. He's getting a 4 port engine but would like to port it out larger as supposedly the 4 port engines have the same castings as the 6 port engines but without the 6 ports cut out.
Having ported a Renesis, and still having Renesis parts lying around, I can tell you to have a very close look at everything before you even think about porting it. You may be surprised by what you find. Resist the urge to port out the exhaust ports. You WILL hit water if you do. Trust me. Look closely at them when you get it.
The worst thing about the Renesis is the poor casting quality. It's thin and VERY rough. You'll spend alot of time in the intake runners just smoothing them out.
Having ported a Renesis, and still having Renesis parts lying around, I can tell you to have a very close look at everything before you even think about porting it. You may be surprised by what you find. Resist the urge to port out the exhaust ports. You WILL hit water if you do. Trust me. Look closely at them when you get it.
The worst thing about the Renesis is the poor casting quality. It's thin and VERY rough. You'll spend alot of time in the intake runners just smoothing them out.
He's not talking about filling in a 6 port engine to make it a 4 port. He's getting a 4 port engine but would like to port it out larger as supposedly the 4 port engines have the same castings as the 6 port engines but without the 6 ports cut out.
Having ported a Renesis, and still having Renesis parts lying around, I can tell you to have a very close look at everything before you even think about porting it. You may be surprised by what you find. Resist the urge to port out the exhaust ports. You WILL hit water if you do. Trust me. Look closely at them when you get it.
The worst thing about the Renesis is the poor casting quality. It's thin and VERY rough. You'll spend alot of time in the intake runners just smoothing them out.
Having ported a Renesis, and still having Renesis parts lying around, I can tell you to have a very close look at everything before you even think about porting it. You may be surprised by what you find. Resist the urge to port out the exhaust ports. You WILL hit water if you do. Trust me. Look closely at them when you get it.
The worst thing about the Renesis is the poor casting quality. It's thin and VERY rough. You'll spend alot of time in the intake runners just smoothing them out.
thanks man...you got the right idea.
i will not be making any changes to the exhaust. maybe just polishing, but thats it. no porting bits will touch the exhuast.
so you think it is possible? its seems very time consuming, buit very possible in my head. i dont know what the HP increase will be, if any. i havnt seen it taken apart yet, and you have...
no one knew if a bridge port would make power until they cut it up. thats my thinking. im getting this motor for only 300. so if it takes a ****. or loses power...ehhhh, no biggie.
Can you improve it? Yes. How much is the real question. The 4 port Renesis engines have smaller exhaust ports than the 6 port engines. They close 10 degrees sooner. You can probably touch them slightly. 10 degrees on the closing side really isn't much at all and you need to be careful that you've still got enough material to support the corner and side seals as they go by.
The primary intake ports on the 4 port also close 10 degrees earlier. The primaries are the one place that you can do alot too. This is where most of my porting work was done. You'll look at the runner to port transition and see a wall where the runner goes behind the port. It's cast this way. It looks like crap and is terrible for flow but it was intentional. You'll see what I mean when you get one taken apart. The runner goes under the oil seal track a little bit. The port opening does not. Do not try to open the port up to match this! I actually cleaned it, roughed it up really well, and then filled it in and reshaped it out of epoxy. If epoxy makes you nervous don't try this. If you are careful and know what you are doing it can be completely reliable. You hear horror stories of epoxy from people who didn't do it right. Anyways, this lip is called the AWP or anti wet port. It is purposely done this way to induce turbulence at the port mouth. This turbulence may be bad for flow but it helps atomize the fuel better. This works in conjunction with the injectors being pointed straight at them as opposed to straight down and with some small air bleeds that go into the lower manifold and into the runners. I got rid of it all.
The secondary ports are where you are trying to concentrate your porting on. The secondary ports close later by 10 degrees than the secondaries on the 6 port although you don't have the auxiliary ports to work with. The castings are "supposedly" the same but I'm not entirely sure. I've seen dumber things. Be very careful. Check the thickness of the castings very closely. You may or may not be able to do what you think you can. The water jacket location on the Renesis is very odd. Just to give you an idea, if you tried to bridgeport the exhaust ports, you'd hit the water jacket! It's hard to envision so just trust me. You'll see what I mean when you get it.
I'd buy some new oversized side seals from Mazdatrix. You will have to clearance these on your own. You may have seen the many threads on the forum about side seals clearances. Some people like running "zero clearance". I measured clearances 4 to 5 times greater than the MAX clearance specified on the 13B;s from Mazda. You do need more clearance due to seal expansion from the heat of the side exhaust port but that's ridiculous! Use the high end of the factory specs for the 13B. The number just happened to escape me at the moment but it's easy to find.
Whatever you do, ALWAYS premix on a Renesis! I mean that for everyone who owns a pre 09 model RX-8 too. Mazda messed up with the oil metering system and it is why so many of those engines have been dying. They have 2 oil metering jets per rotor. Nothing out of the ordinary there. They are both on the rotor housings now though instead of just 1 per rotor on the housings. They are pointed towards the corners of the housings though as they are trying to get oil to the corner seals now. This leaves the center of the apex seal inadequately lubricated though. If you could see a chart of seal temperatures you'd see that the center of the apex seal gets hottest. That's where the oil metering is most important. This is the area of least lubrication on the Renesis. Seals warp, compression goes down, wear increases. This explains everything from inconsistent dyno numbers on RX-8's, low power numbers, and even explains why Mazda has gone through so many ecu reflashes on the car. They figured it out through and the 09 model cars now have a 3rd oil injector per rotor! Mazda knows they messed up as they've extended the engine warranty on all RX-8's to 100K miles. It's retroactive for those who had already had their warranties expire. Mazda has not publicly admitted that the oil metering was flawed in design. They are just fixing the issue slowly and are trying to be quiet about it. Some of us figured it out though! Use premix!
If you ever have any other Renesis questions, just ask.
The primary intake ports on the 4 port also close 10 degrees earlier. The primaries are the one place that you can do alot too. This is where most of my porting work was done. You'll look at the runner to port transition and see a wall where the runner goes behind the port. It's cast this way. It looks like crap and is terrible for flow but it was intentional. You'll see what I mean when you get one taken apart. The runner goes under the oil seal track a little bit. The port opening does not. Do not try to open the port up to match this! I actually cleaned it, roughed it up really well, and then filled it in and reshaped it out of epoxy. If epoxy makes you nervous don't try this. If you are careful and know what you are doing it can be completely reliable. You hear horror stories of epoxy from people who didn't do it right. Anyways, this lip is called the AWP or anti wet port. It is purposely done this way to induce turbulence at the port mouth. This turbulence may be bad for flow but it helps atomize the fuel better. This works in conjunction with the injectors being pointed straight at them as opposed to straight down and with some small air bleeds that go into the lower manifold and into the runners. I got rid of it all.
The secondary ports are where you are trying to concentrate your porting on. The secondary ports close later by 10 degrees than the secondaries on the 6 port although you don't have the auxiliary ports to work with. The castings are "supposedly" the same but I'm not entirely sure. I've seen dumber things. Be very careful. Check the thickness of the castings very closely. You may or may not be able to do what you think you can. The water jacket location on the Renesis is very odd. Just to give you an idea, if you tried to bridgeport the exhaust ports, you'd hit the water jacket! It's hard to envision so just trust me. You'll see what I mean when you get it.
I'd buy some new oversized side seals from Mazdatrix. You will have to clearance these on your own. You may have seen the many threads on the forum about side seals clearances. Some people like running "zero clearance". I measured clearances 4 to 5 times greater than the MAX clearance specified on the 13B;s from Mazda. You do need more clearance due to seal expansion from the heat of the side exhaust port but that's ridiculous! Use the high end of the factory specs for the 13B. The number just happened to escape me at the moment but it's easy to find.
Whatever you do, ALWAYS premix on a Renesis! I mean that for everyone who owns a pre 09 model RX-8 too. Mazda messed up with the oil metering system and it is why so many of those engines have been dying. They have 2 oil metering jets per rotor. Nothing out of the ordinary there. They are both on the rotor housings now though instead of just 1 per rotor on the housings. They are pointed towards the corners of the housings though as they are trying to get oil to the corner seals now. This leaves the center of the apex seal inadequately lubricated though. If you could see a chart of seal temperatures you'd see that the center of the apex seal gets hottest. That's where the oil metering is most important. This is the area of least lubrication on the Renesis. Seals warp, compression goes down, wear increases. This explains everything from inconsistent dyno numbers on RX-8's, low power numbers, and even explains why Mazda has gone through so many ecu reflashes on the car. They figured it out through and the 09 model cars now have a 3rd oil injector per rotor! Mazda knows they messed up as they've extended the engine warranty on all RX-8's to 100K miles. It's retroactive for those who had already had their warranties expire. Mazda has not publicly admitted that the oil metering was flawed in design. They are just fixing the issue slowly and are trying to be quiet about it. Some of us figured it out though! Use premix!
If you ever have any other Renesis questions, just ask.
On yeah, just to give you an idea of how important total flow through the exhaust ports really is, first off you'll see the Renesis ports when you get it. They are terrible! Words can't describe how bad they are but resist the urge to fix them as you'll hit water. Trust me! On the motor I ported, I really focused most of my work on the primary intake ports. The seconaries didn't change and neither did the aux ports. Their runners just got smoothened out. The exhaust ports were carefully radiused but not a whole lot was done as not much can be.
The result after retuning the ecu was 191 rwhp on a Mustang Dyno which many have said to read about 15% or so lower than a Dynojet. You'll have to verify that. The peak power is nice but it doesn't tell the whole story. When the dyno ends at 9200 rpm, the power is still going up! If the exhaust ports are so restrictive, why would power still be going up? Something to think about. Torque on that engine was a staggering 181 ft lbs at 6500 rpm and held flat above that. I've NEVER seen torque like that on a side port engine before. Only on bridge or peripheral ports. This engine has tons of AVERAGE power. You'll never find a 13B that can do what this one can unless it's bridge or peripheral ported and even then this one gets stock mileage numbers when you keep your foot out of it and it still passes inspection! Beat that 13B!
The result after retuning the ecu was 191 rwhp on a Mustang Dyno which many have said to read about 15% or so lower than a Dynojet. You'll have to verify that. The peak power is nice but it doesn't tell the whole story. When the dyno ends at 9200 rpm, the power is still going up! If the exhaust ports are so restrictive, why would power still be going up? Something to think about. Torque on that engine was a staggering 181 ft lbs at 6500 rpm and held flat above that. I've NEVER seen torque like that on a side port engine before. Only on bridge or peripheral ports. This engine has tons of AVERAGE power. You'll never find a 13B that can do what this one can unless it's bridge or peripheral ported and even then this one gets stock mileage numbers when you keep your foot out of it and it still passes inspection! Beat that 13B!
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damn...thats a lot of good info. good to find someone with actual resesis experience.
so, how can you use the epoxy wrong? many people have used JB weld and devcon to shape the runners flow. from what i know, once you put devcon in there, and let it cure. you can grind it, smooth it, shape it, and it is not coming loose. how could you do it wrong? this is a huge part of my planning.
so, how can you use the epoxy wrong? many people have used JB weld and devcon to shape the runners flow. from what i know, once you put devcon in there, and let it cure. you can grind it, smooth it, shape it, and it is not coming loose. how could you do it wrong? this is a huge part of my planning.
Some people don't clean the runners very well first. Another problem is that people often don't rough up the runners enough so there's not as much for the epoxy to grip to. I've used epoxy many times and never had a problem. I will completely clean the runner several times with various cleaning solvents until I'm confident that it's real clean. Then I'll go in with a Dremel and dimple the runner where the epoxy is going to go. It looks alot like the surface of a golf ball at that point. Basically I use a small Dremel bit and make lots of little cutout like dents. The bit only needs to touch the surface for a couple of seconds to do this. Once I get it where I like it, I clean the runners again. Then I'll use epoxy. I used to use Devcon but in more recent engines have changed to good old JB Weld.
i have the motor now!!! finally!
i havnt opened it , and will not be right away either. i want to have just about everything set up and ready to run. before i break it down. so when its time to rebuild and port, thats all thats left.
after stairing at it and reaching my fingers in the intake ports. it seems that it is the same casting, just not opened up. theres a space for the secondary (top) runner, its just not milled out. as they do this secondary after the casting. or atleast i think they do.
anyways...after looking at it, im pretty sure its possible. cool...
i'll try and post some pics up later on.
i havnt opened it , and will not be right away either. i want to have just about everything set up and ready to run. before i break it down. so when its time to rebuild and port, thats all thats left.
after stairing at it and reaching my fingers in the intake ports. it seems that it is the same casting, just not opened up. theres a space for the secondary (top) runner, its just not milled out. as they do this secondary after the casting. or atleast i think they do.
anyways...after looking at it, im pretty sure its possible. cool...
i'll try and post some pics up later on.
Extremely impressive. That's more power than my supercharged 13B, and I'm sure with just as good driveability down low if not more, if my bro's stock 8 (with a new motor, lol) is any indication. I've told him to start premixing right after break in.
My mouth is now watering to do a Renesis. Thanks for posting your results and how you got there.
My mouth is now watering to do a Renesis. Thanks for posting your results and how you got there.
this is my main thinking...
even the 4 port renesis (low power) has 198 SAE flywheel. thats more than an S4 Turbo II and almost equal to a S5 Turbo II. in NA form completely stock. better gas milage, newer technology, and most likely a great deal less milage.
the i been thinking about seeing what it will make stock first before opening it up. but we'll see. and when i say stock i mean the core. everything else will be custom or modified.
i have a set of GSXR 600 ITB's. and will be modifying the OBX header to fit with 2.75 inch the rest of the way. and maybe a resinator for some added backpressure. the car should be euqally, if not faster...than a TII 1st gen.
not bad....plus i got the motor (good running motor) for 300!!!
even the 4 port renesis (low power) has 198 SAE flywheel. thats more than an S4 Turbo II and almost equal to a S5 Turbo II. in NA form completely stock. better gas milage, newer technology, and most likely a great deal less milage.
the i been thinking about seeing what it will make stock first before opening it up. but we'll see. and when i say stock i mean the core. everything else will be custom or modified.
i have a set of GSXR 600 ITB's. and will be modifying the OBX header to fit with 2.75 inch the rest of the way. and maybe a resinator for some added backpressure. the car should be euqally, if not faster...than a TII 1st gen.
not bad....plus i got the motor (good running motor) for 300!!!
so, rotarygod...this question is a little off topic...
so i swap the 12a timing gear and front cover (just curious, does it matter wich side goes up for the gear???) and i went to bolt up to gsl-se oil pan...
its to short. so i thought maybe its not a gsl-se oil pan, maybe its a 12a. so i tryed using my FC oil pan, same thing! so the renesis is longer than regular 13b's???
i know i seen another guy extend his 12a oil pan by wleding two together. but i didnt think i would have to with a 13b oil pan!?!?
so i swap the 12a timing gear and front cover (just curious, does it matter wich side goes up for the gear???) and i went to bolt up to gsl-se oil pan...
its to short. so i thought maybe its not a gsl-se oil pan, maybe its a 12a. so i tryed using my FC oil pan, same thing! so the renesis is longer than regular 13b's???
i know i seen another guy extend his 12a oil pan by wleding two together. but i didnt think i would have to with a 13b oil pan!?!?
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From: Victoria, B.C.
sen2two sounds like ur car will be great, espcially with the ITbs. be careful with the porting tho lol.
RG are you talking about CRH's 8 on rx8club? i didnt no it made that much torque thats amazing
RG are you talking about CRH's 8 on rx8club? i didnt no it made that much torque thats amazing
in the first pic...you can see that the runner is just not milled out
in the second... you can really see the 6 port runner petruding out the rear plate.
so i really belive that this can be done now...
in the second... you can really see the 6 port runner petruding out the rear plate.
so i really belive that this can be done now...
i just emasured it right now.
there just about 2 inches different. the renesis was just under 16 1/4. (with the 12a front cover). and i measured the 13b oil pan. it was just under 14 1/2.
so it will have to be extended...
there just about 2 inches different. the renesis was just under 16 1/4. (with the 12a front cover). and i measured the 13b oil pan. it was just under 14 1/2.
so it will have to be extended...
The rotors are the same size. The front and rear housings are a bit thicker than the 13B. If you look at the intake runners on them, they don't turn as sharp which means the rear runners is farther back than on the 13B and the front runner is farther forward in the car. Thr rotor housings and int housing are the same thickness.
yeah...the runners for the center iron are the same size as the FD. atleast the opening where the manifold bolts to.
i'll be cutting two 12a pans to fit, since its going into a 1st gen.
i'll be cutting two 12a pans to fit, since its going into a 1st gen.