He said he cant afford a big budget build, so these P ports, Renesis motors and 100% race built engines and all that arent really options. A bolt-on K20 hatch will run mid to low 12s all day easy, I just dont see a budget build N/A rotary competing without costing massive amounts of money.

 

Well you gotta remember to get a K20 to run in a hatch it cost at LEAST 6K dollars.
You have to get a set of mounts tahts like 400, motor and trans are expensive, plust a wiring harness and an EMS, you cant use the stock computer. Its not gonna be cheap for them to do it.

 

If the Starlet weighs 1800-1900lbs it will run mid 12s with 180whp. ITS cars are doing 180+whp on stock ports, intake manifold, and MAF. 220whp will put it in 11s which can be done with a streetport.

 

Ok but the k20 engine isn't making a unheard amount of hp. Most people think they are when they see a civic with a k20 run a 11. The biggest advantage the civic will have is their weight. Not hp. Those bolt on k20 are only making 200-220 whp and that kind of hp can be made on a street port from a rotary.

 

a full k-series swap is gonna cost twice as much as a 13b swap...i see people paying 8 grand for a full k-swap thats not including alot of the stuff needed to put it in the car...

 

^ agreed, look at this scenario, if just the k20 (price of motor/trans/mounts/harness/axles) came out to ~5k and keep in mind this is without any mods like headwork, cams, boltons etc...

now take 5k and lets throw parts at a starlet, 500 on suspension, 500 on rearend, 500 on trans and clutch, 500 on sticky mickies and skinnys, put 3k into a race bridge. So about ~5k total on the starlet.

The k20 has 200 to the flywheel, the bridgey starlet has no less than 250 to the flywheel(underestimated for fun) and still has stickies and a built suspension and a lighter car to do the nasty. With money being the same, my money would be on that starlet.

Regarding a k20 swap being in the 12's... great show on speed called Pass Time, recently saw a type S k20 supercharged with a jackson racing kit still running 14's.... so where are we getting an n/a in the 12's?

 

I could maybe see high 12's on a stripped EG6 hatch swapped k20 with full slicks, built trans, built axle shafts, maybe a little spray?? just hard to see fwd doing 12's n/a in street trim.

 

It all depends on what you classify as legal. Where I live there is no emmissions or exhaust laws for cars over 25 years old, so you could build a 350 whp 13b with drag radials that would run 10.5's all day. There's no way any honda will run 10's on drag radials. At least I've never seen it. I have plenty of friends with 300whp turbo hondas that cant go faster than 11.5's with drag radials. He said street legal so no slicks for the honda... FYi a 96 is a EK hatch is 2400 lbs stock, but the starlet was around 1900 I believe.
You could have a PP13b making 350whp installed for less than 8k and still have money left over for suspension...

yes Jesus Padilla ran 9.88 @ 133mph with a 300 whp 20b streetport then they banned it, so he built a 13b that made more power. There are also plenty of guys running 9's with NA 13b's
The 7 can't lose. Noone has gone faster than 10 flat with a K series yet. As far as I know the only NA hondas running faster than 10 flat are Lookofsky, Shagday, and Bisi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G95yl6F0hI

 

hmm... I wonder why he would be using the heavier ek instead of the eg.... either way, I hope you follow through and wax his ***. Dont forget to post the vid

 

Maybe in your neck of the woods but where I live a K swapped Civic is very common and you can get the swap in an EG or EK for well under $6,000 installed with axles, tranny and with K-Pro ECU. Soon they'll be dropping a K2B transmission adapter also so guys are gonna be running K20s with very low geared B-series transmissions which makes them even more dangerous.


Dont need spray or a built transmission at all to do 12s N/A. I know of at least 15 guys personally with Ks running deep in the 11s with no spray. You can go to www.b20vtec.com which is a local NYC/NJ/Long Island Honda forum and check out their time slips in the 11 sec club, 10 second club, and 9 sec club sections.


But I do agree that maybe it is doable with the rotary now that I see you guys are dropping this motor in a very lightweight Starlet, that part passed me by earlier. Its still gonna be tough though, but I hope the rotary whoops some i-VTEC ***. Update when alls said and done.

 

Whatever, the comparison is apples to oranges.

If they are doing an NA K20 swap Civic hatch you HAVE to do a NA 20B Miata for a fair comparison.

Why do they get to choose the lightest/best chassis and best engine and you choose an old Toyota and little 13B? You are handicapping yourself.

Now, you if you are handy with tools you can do your own P-ports and get some good power out of the 20B for CHEAP, whereas when you start trying to put parts on a K20 to improve its power it is going to get expensive because Honda did a GREAT job engineering it and a little garage work isn't going to double its power like a rotary.

147% VE! Nice! We can do that too, but it is going to be a loud rowdy beast.

 

Can a 13B beat a K20? Yes

Can a K20 beat a 13B? Also yes

It depends on the exact setup used.

 

http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/f...nge/index.html

that car made 297hp at the wheels this summer.

you could make more power with a 13b, but it would not be very friendly

 

Let me give you guy some more info on this challenge. the starlet will have 4 link on 8.8 ford rearend with a 4.88 gear. A TII trans. Engine will be bridge port. There is talk of fuel injection holly style tb, over a jay tech intake. Microtech system. It will also have slicks. Do to age the fuel tank has been allowed to replace by a fuel cell.

 

I think that going FI is mod #1 for the rotary. Spraying water/alky/nitrous is Mod #2.

If they are getting 6k, then you will have no problem getting everything you need.
I personally think that the rotary can take it. Would I bet my car? no.
My reasoning is this:
What do you do to a rotary to up power? Bigger turbo, EMS and fuel system upgrades and port.

What do you do to a piston engine to up power? Full top end work, .20 over, EMS, turbo, and then fuel, AND if you get too much power, you might need to re-do bottom end.

For the cost of the headwork, you can do all porting and fuel for a rotary, turbos not included, both run EMS, Fuel systems the same price.

so for cost, rotary gets more.(that's just engine work)
For hp, I'm no expert, but even if the Honda makes more, the rotary has the weight behind them.

We can believe what we want, but like stated, we wont know until it goes down.

Edit, There are alot of things I forgot..... but my opinion and point stay the same.

 

Naturally aspirated forum........
Naturally aspirated 13B vs K20.......

 

yeah no spray or turbos in OP. I think you can do it. Even if he slightly beats you in hp. You might be able to take overall with 2 out of 3. Hell depending on how deep his pockets are maybe 3 for 3. I believe. Ask the big dogs here about the tunning, thats the secret. best tuner might be the winner

 

oh yeah what kind of exhuast are you going to b using?

 

"In the shop some of the guys feel that a 13b na can not be built to beat a k20 na" by ozvasques



as far as the oringinal post its that a 13b can not b built to beat a k20 n/a. nevr stated a modded k20, so thats easy. haha jk

 

Race 13B's modified with peripheral ports can put out in excess of 350hp, some can do that much to the wheels. I don't see a K20 ever doing that. That said, the race motor won't idle, will be INSANELY loud and will need to be reved a hell of a lot to get that sort of power, but then again I wouldn't expect that the really high hp K20's are particularly street friendly either (although probably less bad because of VTEC).

A street port should be able to put down 220whp, a bride a bunch more than that and can still be considered by some to be quite streetable (many people do run bridge ports on the street).

If we're talking $6k for a cheap K20 swap (ignoring power adders I assume?), then that could buy a pretty good, fairly powerful NA 13B setup.

 

I think you guys should make it equal in spending money on both cars. That way it would be more interesting. If money wasn't an issue the 13b would kill the k20. With a pport 13bs have seen upwards of 400hp. I don't think the k20 can top that. And one thing that is very very important that you guys are forgeting is Front wheel drive vs Rear wheel drive! Front wheel drive sucks! If both are equal in horsepower and weight the rear wheel drive car will win every time. What do you think is the most limiting factor for honda's that drag race? Front wheel drive.

The only reason the N/A Honda guys are winning right now in the all motor drag racing scene is because they get to weigh alot less than the rotary guys do and that's because the rotary was kicking so much *** that the Honda guys cried like little bitches until they changed the rules and allowed them to run lighter so that they could compete with the rotary.

It's all about the big sponsers and who brings in the big money. One thing I've learned in competing is that, "It's not who you know it's who you blow". LOL

 

the car in the link i posted does 297rwhp, s2000 pistons, ported heads, stock honda cams....

the k20 swap expensive though

 

FTMFW!!!

 

THAT IS A VERY NICE LOOKING PPORT.

 

Trust me it is very very possible because a rotary is one of the few engines in the world that a shade tree mechanic can build his own custom intake and exhaust set-ups without having to pay for expensive custom machining. You just have to know what the hell your doing. Any porting to a rotary is a DIY project if you choose. Right now their are aluminum rotors being developed in the aftermarket that so far have shown to really help boost the engine out put. Finally we will have aftermarket support for the internal rotating assembly. Support up until this year was virually non-existent. The game about to change.