ozvazquez

Im a tech for honda but also a big rotary fan. In the shop some of the guys feel that a 13b na can not be built to beat a k20 na. The challenge is any mod to engines but the body has to stay street legal and unaltered. Meaning factory interior and all glass. Vehicles have to be registered. There are 3 parts to the challenge. 1st most horsepower, 2nd cost (who spends the least amount), and 3rd who will weight the least amount. Vehicles will be 96 civic hatch (k20) and 82 starlet (13b).


There is no cap on how much can be spent however, you have to keep in mind that we cant afford to a big budget build.......... That is the reason for the 2nd part of the challenge.

LOOKING FOR SOME FEEDBACK ON THIS CHALLENGE??

drewski86

Is this going to be a full blown race car? This is going to dictate a lot on what you will be able to do.

The fastest all motor 13Bs (PPort) are around 350whp trapping over 130mph. These are going to be way to loud for the street though.

2RotorsNaDream

iTrader: (7)

I honestly dont see you winning. K20 hatches are very fast when done right. I have lots of friends with K swapped hatches and many of them are running in the low to mid 11s all motor. And these are 19-25 year old guys who dont have huge budgets. I lost to my friends all motor 1993 K20 hatch with my 305whp FD, and when he got traction and started pulling it wasnt really close at all. I'm hoping that I can do better now since I just did my non-sequential conversion running 350whp, but I still dont see myself winning. Good luck man, you're gonna need it.

FC-Dan

I honestly dont know how you could think that you would lose with 350 TO THE WHEELS! Theres no way in hell an all motor k20 could push out that kind of power. Id also say that it also seems very unlikely that he could reach close to 305whp either. And you have RWD.. So please, kick his ***. Somehow.

2RotorsNaDream

iTrader: (7)

You must have never run into a built K swapped Civic hatch, they are fast because they are so light. The one I lost to is 270whp and weighs in at about 1900-2000lbs with driver. So yeah, its gonna be tough even with 350whp but we'll see what happens. That car has banged out an 11.3 if I remember correctly, I really dont think I'd be able to beat it.

peejay

A K20 will demolish a 13B. Sorry.



There's some really great things going on with the chambers and ports in a K-series. The only problems with them, as I see it, is that most people I've encountered running K-series are megadouches (even more than some of the holy rotors) so getting info is painful. But, the main problem is that the cars around the engine just plain suck. They're all huge minivan like things, except for the S2000, which is fine if you don't mind a heavy car that you can't race or open-track unless you put in a rollcage because it doesn't have a fixed roof.

g14novak

iTrader: (1)

As much as I like rotaries, that K20 would stomp the **** outa the 13b.

Just for the 13B to put out what a K20 does stock, the 13B would have to be ported so far it wouldn't be legal to drive on the road at idle, not to mention under some throttle...

You'd need a GOOD full bridge n/a 13B to match a stock block tuned K20 FYI. Start putting internals in the K20? Game over.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

yes, but to stay within the confines of the original post, weight should be a moot point when going up against a rotary Starlet. a well-executed setup on just about any non-stock port configuration should run the Civic.

as for the HP-number part of the competiton, i don't know what numbers the K20 are capable of, but if that 270 to the wheels is an accurate example, then you may be limited to using a bridgey or peripheral port.

i say go for it ....

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

i'd be more than willing to concede that the K20 can beat a 13B. however, this statement just seems wrong. if the stock K20 (in the S2000) is putting down roughly 240 HP (flywheel), that's streetport territory - more than legal (and civil) to drive around on the public streets.

as i said, i don't know what the K-engines are capable of when they are fully jacked up on steroids, and based on the stock power levels, i suspect it could run well into the 270-280 (flywheel) range and still be civil - but that's just a guess. if i am right, then it would clearly take a race-type port for a non-Renesis 13B to hope to compete with it.

2RotorsNaDream

iTrader: (7)

S2000s dont come with K-series motors, only the Civic SI, RSX Type S, CRV, and TSX/Accord base model. S2Ks come with F20 and F22 motors. The stock SI in America is 197hp in the Civic and 210hp in the Type S. In Japan Mugen RRs come stock with up to 240hp.

drewski86

Is the Renesis included? If so, on stockports they are doing ~260 flywheel hp and the newer ones are doing even better.

g14novak

iTrader: (1)

Built K20 only putting down 270-280? You gotta be huffin something. You better share. A built B16(1.6L) can put down 260 on pump gas. The K20(2.0L) is a FAR superior motor. I'll let you do your own research on that one.

And a full bridge 13b is only going to put out around 300-325. They better hope their making that 13b a J-port or a P-port.

A stock starlet weights like 1800-1900lbs.

A stock civic EG weights between 2200-2600lbs.

Their isn't a whole lot of difference there. I think I remember reading somewhere that every 100lbs is .1 second off a persons 1/4 mile time.

peejay

SOME street ports can do it. We're talking 95th percentile here, all ducks have to be in a row.

I have seen dyno plots of a K24 at 340hp flywheel at realistic RPM levels. (Nowhere near 5-figures) And bear in mind, that the main HP limitation is the head, so a 2 liter could get within maybe 90-95% of this.

Eternal_Gamer

iTrader: (10)

I say use the renesis 13b or u will just be comparing an old engine to a new engine. The renesis is stronger stock than a k20.The old 13b na won't cut it.

dvs71990

I think the 13 b can win with some kind of port job. You have advantage from a dig because of the rwd. What's is the killer is the significent weight difference of the two.I have faith in the rotary and I will love to see you kill it.

fcdin

iTrader: (1)

its like saying..

can a 13b beat a stock EVO,STI,GTO even a SRT4

Wankel1der

iTrader: (3)

sorry to break some hearts but i seen built K20 hatches destroy 500 whp supras... so an n/a rotary i would think is no problem. especially considering the age of the technology in the rotary being used here.

NCross

iTrader: (18)

Why put it in a Toyota??? Put it in a 1st gen RX-7. It will weigh in around 2300 pounds with full interior. P port it. Racing Beat suspension. Racing Beat exhaust. Standalone fuel management. Bigger fuel pump. That's a fast car...

RacerJason

iTrader: (5)

Tough to bring some rotor heads out of their trances... Please keep this thread informative and civil. A little debating is fine but lets all be realistic.

rnz520

iTrader: (10)

I truly and honestly dislike Hondas, beacuse of their drivers mainly that think their fwd economy cars are hot ****, but I cannot deny that they have built some great motors. The B series vtecs were great for their time, and an older 13b can probably and honestly beat one, but when you talk about the K series you are talking about a completely different animal.
I dont know how or why, but they put out ridiculous power with barely any mods, with a good midrange to boast. They are easily the best 4 cylinder in the world when it comes to making power.
You have your work cut out for you, but with the weight advantage and a traction advantage you have a chance. Just remember, pistons dont take kindly to overrevving or being abused all day long, so even if he beats you on the drag strip you can always challenge him to an enduro.
And do yourselve a favor, start with a renesis, you have a better chance.

NoPistons!

iTrader: (3)

My vote goes to the k20. I started out with honda and i've done some digging on the swap. K20's aren't to be taken lightly. Nor are turbo sohc d16 hatchbacks....

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

ain't huffin' ****, really. wish i was ... it's all ignorance on my part, but i made sure to put that out there, up front. as for the research, i'll have to do some now because this topic has piqued my interest. no worries ...

2slow4stock

iTrader: (18)

Yeah, I would have to give it to the k series. B series push some good numbers. Boosted type r, stock cams, aftermarket valve springs, 8.5.1 compression piston, rods, t3/t4 turbo with 550cc injectors max out at 15psi. made 378whp and ran an 12.1 at it's best and trap speed was 119mph. (In an eg hatch with full interior)

Hell there was an article that a stock b16 with pistons and a turbo kit made 504whp on stock block and head. Just to show you get a damn good tune.

I honestly have to say good luck.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

true, indeed. i was merely making a point on the statement i quoted.

well, it seems i've got some phone calls to make and some reading to do. thanks, Peejay.

rotormind

As far as I no, john padilla rx7 made more hp in his allmotor rx7 than all the hondas including the k series. He was killing the Honda allmotor tuning class until they changed the rules. The 13b was the dominant engine in that class so I'm pretty sure the 13b has a good chance if done properly.