Haltech Stumped... Looking for ideas
05-09-14, 01:36 PM
#1
Stumped... Looking for ideas
Hey guys, thanks for taking a look at this.
Configuration: PS1000 running LS2 Ignition Coils, 850cc primary injectors and 1600cc secondary through a rywire harness. Trigger is FFE hall effect.
Problem: after a couple of key on key off events, the car fails to start. It has spark, fuel pressure and compression. I can smell fuel odor emanating from the exhaust pipe after a start attempt.
Troubleshooting efforts: I checked all fuses and possible relays, executed the deflooding procedure, replaced the spark plugs, and attempted pull starting the vehicle without success.
I am out of ideas and looking for yours.
Configuration: PS1000 running LS2 Ignition Coils, 850cc primary injectors and 1600cc secondary through a rywire harness. Trigger is FFE hall effect.
Problem: after a couple of key on key off events, the car fails to start. It has spark, fuel pressure and compression. I can smell fuel odor emanating from the exhaust pipe after a start attempt.
Troubleshooting efforts: I checked all fuses and possible relays, executed the deflooding procedure, replaced the spark plugs, and attempted pull starting the vehicle without success.
I am out of ideas and looking for yours.
05-09-14, 02:04 PM
#2
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What model engine is this? REW?
Does the car start if you don't cycle the key? I'm assuming this means you are just turning the key to the on position and back off?
May be a good idea to take a log of what is happening.
If the car isn't running, have you disabled the injectors and set the timing? This is a good time to look at the triggers since last home and other related channels which can diagnose a properly setup trigger system.
Can you see fuel pressure? If so, how long does it take to bleed off pressure?
Which map are you using as a base?
Feel free to post the map so that others can see if they notice anything off.
Does the car start if you don't cycle the key? I'm assuming this means you are just turning the key to the on position and back off?
May be a good idea to take a log of what is happening.
If the car isn't running, have you disabled the injectors and set the timing? This is a good time to look at the triggers since last home and other related channels which can diagnose a properly setup trigger system.
Can you see fuel pressure? If so, how long does it take to bleed off pressure?
Which map are you using as a base?
Feel free to post the map so that others can see if they notice anything off.
05-09-14, 03:09 PM
#3
Sorry, it is an REW w/ non sequential BNR Stage 2 Turbos.
You're correct. I parked the car. While it was parked, I turned the key to the on position and back off a few times to check fuel pressure after installing a new pump (Bosch 044), which checks fine (43psi during crank and while attempting to pull start). The pressure does bleed off quickly, but there is no check valve in the line and pressure is solid during crank. This also occurred with the old pump.
This isn't a fresh install. Its been fine since I bought the car a year and a half ago. Injectors are enabled and the timing settings are still intact, unless I've overlooked something. Trigger works... coils are sparking. I'll post a log this evening.
Map is attached, just change the extension from txt to hs1-113
You're correct. I parked the car. While it was parked, I turned the key to the on position and back off a few times to check fuel pressure after installing a new pump (Bosch 044), which checks fine (43psi during crank and while attempting to pull start). The pressure does bleed off quickly, but there is no check valve in the line and pressure is solid during crank. This also occurred with the old pump.
This isn't a fresh install. Its been fine since I bought the car a year and a half ago. Injectors are enabled and the timing settings are still intact, unless I've overlooked something. Trigger works... coils are sparking. I'll post a log this evening.
Map is attached, just change the extension from txt to hs1-113
05-10-14, 10:09 AM
#4
Injectors aren't firing. Pressure is good and they are receiving power.
I suspect it is the injector driver that has failed. Anyone care to confirm? Other ideas?
I guess this isn't uncommon and it would also explain the intermittent cutoffs that occurred last fall.
I suspect it is the injector driver that has failed. Anyone care to confirm? Other ideas?
I guess this isn't uncommon and it would also explain the intermittent cutoffs that occurred last fall.
05-11-14, 07:23 PM
#7
If the TPS is stuck at 100% for any reason, the ECU will go into flood clear mode and shut down injection. Something to check anyway.
Also, in ECU Manager, is it showing an injection pulse width while you're cranking or just 0?
I assume, since you say you have spark, that you have an RPM signal while cranking?
Also, in ECU Manager, is it showing an injection pulse width while you're cranking or just 0?
I assume, since you say you have spark, that you have an RPM signal while cranking?
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06-08-14, 06:30 PM
#10
I did. They still have it. The EMS fired injectors during a bench test, but Haltech is doing some additional testing. I suppose that there is a remote chance that the injectors are stuck closed, but it seems unlikely that both would fail simultaneously. I'll update when I know more... hopefully this week.
06-16-14, 04:01 PM
#11
Haltech was unable to find anything wrong. I guess it did fine in another vehicle. I plugged it back into mine and I'm where I was to begin with. 9V batt test confirmed that the injectors are functioning. I am completely out of ideas now. I'm going to recheck grounding points I suppose. I've never seen anything like this.
06-17-14, 12:06 AM
#13
This is just an educated guess, but if your voltage is dropping that low when cranking, things like the relays aren't getting enough juice to stay alive. I don't have any hard and fast numbers, but most automotive relays I'm aware of need at least 9-10v to energize the coil. So power gets cut to the injectors/coils, ECU shuts off and it's only the starter left to putter along at a speed too slow to actually start if the ECU was still on. But at least it doesn't sound like Lassie
For reference, proper cranking voltage is 10.0v or above, while normal battery voltage is 12.6v. I'd pull your battery and give it a nice, slow charge to see if it will recover any grunt. You MIGHT get lucky.
06-17-14, 07:22 PM
#14
In some of my earlier indoor boot experiments, my PS2000 would boot & connect to the laptop on as little as 7.2v. Keep in mind, this was the ECU only though, no relays in the boot harness. If your voltage is dropping to 8v when cranking, I'd say you either got some major nasty battery cables or your battery is falling on its face as my shitty autozone one was before I bought a Deka Intimidator.
This is just an educated guess, but if your voltage is dropping that low when cranking, things like the relays aren't getting enough juice to stay alive. I don't have any hard and fast numbers, but most automotive relays I'm aware of need at least 9-10v to energize the coil. So power gets cut to the injectors/coils, ECU shuts off and it's only the starter left to putter along at a speed too slow to actually start if the ECU was still on. But at least it doesn't sound like Lassie
For reference, proper cranking voltage is 10.0v or above, while normal battery voltage is 12.6v. I'd pull your battery and give it a nice, slow charge to see if it will recover any grunt. You MIGHT get lucky.
This is just an educated guess, but if your voltage is dropping that low when cranking, things like the relays aren't getting enough juice to stay alive. I don't have any hard and fast numbers, but most automotive relays I'm aware of need at least 9-10v to energize the coil. So power gets cut to the injectors/coils, ECU shuts off and it's only the starter left to putter along at a speed too slow to actually start if the ECU was still on. But at least it doesn't sound like Lassie
For reference, proper cranking voltage is 10.0v or above, while normal battery voltage is 12.6v. I'd pull your battery and give it a nice, slow charge to see if it will recover any grunt. You MIGHT get lucky.
thanks for your input
06-21-14, 09:47 AM
#16
This may be noteworthy as well. I have an AEM wideband w/ gauge. The gauge stopped providing a readout at the same time that this problem manifested. It is powered and the ems is still receiving an AFR signal. Not sure if this is relevant information, but it may help. Thanks again for your ideas.
06-21-14, 12:29 PM
#17
I did a little digging and found this: https://www.rx7club.com/power-fc-for...alogit-912142/
Specifically, this picture:
This doesn't make sense. Why would there be both a Positive AND Negative signal output from the Wideband Controller? Every stock ECU I am aware of has only ONE input for O2 and it is always a 0-1v or 0-5v positive voltage signal, never a ground-based signal. Your Haltech can have two widebands, but they are still only one 0-5v input each.
So I checked the diagram on AEM's site here, found on Page 3:
http://aemelectronics.com/files/inst...GO%20Gauge.pdf
If your ECU is displaying a signal, but the Gauge/Controller isn't, I would suspect the Gauge/Controller. If the Gauge/Controller is behaving strangely, the ECU can receive a funky O2 sensor signal, leading to glitchy starting/running behavior as you've experienced. Datalogging the ECU against the Controller and comparing the two sources O2 readings in both AFR and voltage would probably shed some light on this.
The way I wired up my Innovate LC-1 was to put both the ECU & gauge on one of the controller's available outputs so they received the same information. The unused output is wired to a test connector (a Delphi metripack one, my standard for any automotive wiring) under the hood. If the Gauge or ECU start acting funny with their readings, I check the readings against the second output using a voltmeter. If both outputs are reading wacky, then the ECU & Gauge are fine and I'd suspect the controller or sensor.
My gut feeling is that the controller is spitting out funky signals, making the ECU dump in assloads of fuel, flooding the engine and making it not start as indicated above. Make sure ALL of the wiring between the controller, ECU and chassis is solid and has next to no resistance. 0.7 ohms is the figure I've found to indicate a perfect connection.
Specifically, this picture:
This doesn't make sense. Why would there be both a Positive AND Negative signal output from the Wideband Controller? Every stock ECU I am aware of has only ONE input for O2 and it is always a 0-1v or 0-5v positive voltage signal, never a ground-based signal. Your Haltech can have two widebands, but they are still only one 0-5v input each.
So I checked the diagram on AEM's site here, found on Page 3:
http://aemelectronics.com/files/inst...GO%20Gauge.pdf
If your ECU is displaying a signal, but the Gauge/Controller isn't, I would suspect the Gauge/Controller. If the Gauge/Controller is behaving strangely, the ECU can receive a funky O2 sensor signal, leading to glitchy starting/running behavior as you've experienced. Datalogging the ECU against the Controller and comparing the two sources O2 readings in both AFR and voltage would probably shed some light on this.
The way I wired up my Innovate LC-1 was to put both the ECU & gauge on one of the controller's available outputs so they received the same information. The unused output is wired to a test connector (a Delphi metripack one, my standard for any automotive wiring) under the hood. If the Gauge or ECU start acting funny with their readings, I check the readings against the second output using a voltmeter. If both outputs are reading wacky, then the ECU & Gauge are fine and I'd suspect the controller or sensor.
My gut feeling is that the controller is spitting out funky signals, making the ECU dump in assloads of fuel, flooding the engine and making it not start as indicated above. Make sure ALL of the wiring between the controller, ECU and chassis is solid and has next to no resistance. 0.7 ohms is the figure I've found to indicate a perfect connection.
06-21-14, 01:08 PM
#18
Well, I am lacking an injector pulse. No fuel is getting into the motor. Fuel pressure is steady at 43psi and the pumps are running. Injectors click with a 9V battery and I have power at the injectors and at the EMS pins. Crank RPM is approx 230 and I have activity from my ignition coils.
Since I last posted, I am more confident that the wideband controller is inoperative and it isn't providing an output signal to the ems. The log I posted gives a key on value of 11.0 afr and, during the crank, it bounces just above and below that value (+.5 -.2). After cranking ceases, it returns to 11.0. I arrived at this conclusion when I noticed that the afr value and behavior remains the same when the controller is plugged in and when it is not.
I'm wondering if, in the absence of an O2 signal, the ems will elect not to pulse the injectors.
Since I last posted, I am more confident that the wideband controller is inoperative and it isn't providing an output signal to the ems. The log I posted gives a key on value of 11.0 afr and, during the crank, it bounces just above and below that value (+.5 -.2). After cranking ceases, it returns to 11.0. I arrived at this conclusion when I noticed that the afr value and behavior remains the same when the controller is plugged in and when it is not.
I'm wondering if, in the absence of an O2 signal, the ems will elect not to pulse the injectors.
06-21-14, 02:05 PM
#19
06-22-14, 09:33 AM
#20
Figured it out! Self induced (of course).
I was troubleshooting lack of fuel pressure immediately after my surge tank install (I reversed the terminals for my feed pump... it was dark. leave me alone) and in doing so, moved the relay with two 87 pins from the injectors and replaced with an 87, 87a relay without looking at the pin diagram and assuming they were the same. Swapped it back in and presto.
Don't judge me. Thanks very much for all of the feedback.
I was troubleshooting lack of fuel pressure immediately after my surge tank install (I reversed the terminals for my feed pump... it was dark. leave me alone) and in doing so, moved the relay with two 87 pins from the injectors and replaced with an 87, 87a relay without looking at the pin diagram and assuming they were the same. Swapped it back in and presto.
Don't judge me. Thanks very much for all of the feedback.
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