Haltech fresh rebuild + E6k = no start
11-04-07, 05:40 PM
#1
tom port.. AKA streetport
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fresh rebuild + E6k = no start
so here is what ive done:
pulled the CAS and spun it to verify spark. i know there is fuel because it floods and i have to unflood it every time i try and start it.
i have new fersh plugs in
i squirted a little 2 stroke oil in the housings to help build compression
it wont even try and fire.
my setup:
850 P
1680 S
stock coils
rebuilt and ported S4 TII
turbonetics 62-1 with .96
after market FPR set at 30 PSI.
walboro in tank fuel pump.
FMIC
i have the MAP but i cant load it on here. i can email it.
i really cant push start it since its not really road worthy yet. im waiting on a flange for the wastegate and im just running the DP.
tommorow or the following nite i will wld up the exhaust.
i loaded 2 PDF's to show how i wired the haltech E6k
i have no trouble going online or anything like that. i just cant get it to fire.
but it shouldnt keep it form starting.
pulled the CAS and spun it to verify spark. i know there is fuel because it floods and i have to unflood it every time i try and start it.
i have new fersh plugs in
i squirted a little 2 stroke oil in the housings to help build compression
it wont even try and fire.
my setup:
850 P
1680 S
stock coils
rebuilt and ported S4 TII
turbonetics 62-1 with .96
after market FPR set at 30 PSI.
walboro in tank fuel pump.
FMIC
i have the MAP but i cant load it on here. i can email it.
i really cant push start it since its not really road worthy yet. im waiting on a flange for the wastegate and im just running the DP.
tommorow or the following nite i will wld up the exhaust.
i loaded 2 PDF's to show how i wired the haltech E6k
i have no trouble going online or anything like that. i just cant get it to fire.
but it shouldnt keep it form starting.
11-04-07, 07:32 PM
#2
Lives on the Forum
I absolutely HATE doing this.
Unless the (fuel) maps are dialed in pretty good, if you flood the motor just once, it's a royal PITA to get it fired.
It's even harder to do if you're new to this sorta thing.
Flooding the engine washes all the assembly lube / oil that you used to coat everything on assembly.
Once all of that gets washed away from too much fuel, compression takes a dump.
So basically you're trying to start a low compression engine...
Have a battery charger handy...
Be patient...
Start lean and then enrich just to get the engine started and idling.
That's about the only advice I can give you...
Good luck!
-Ted
Unless the (fuel) maps are dialed in pretty good, if you flood the motor just once, it's a royal PITA to get it fired.
It's even harder to do if you're new to this sorta thing.
Flooding the engine washes all the assembly lube / oil that you used to coat everything on assembly.
Once all of that gets washed away from too much fuel, compression takes a dump.
So basically you're trying to start a low compression engine...
Have a battery charger handy...
Be patient...
Start lean and then enrich just to get the engine started and idling.
That's about the only advice I can give you...
Good luck!
-Ted
11-04-07, 07:38 PM
#3
tom port.. AKA streetport
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oh its flooded allright. it looked like i was in a car wash under my hood when i pulled the plugs and de-flooded it. should i maybe put some 2 stroke oil in there prior to start up to build compression?
11-04-07, 07:44 PM
#4
tom port.. AKA streetport
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now removing fuel, do i remove in the 0 RPM range and 500??
i have the MAP setup for 800 P and im running 850's.
so i have no idea how much i should remove??
should i take it down 2 or 3 notches then try it or more??
god i hate not knowing what to do!!!
glad you guys are here to help!!
i have the MAP setup for 800 P and im running 850's.
so i have no idea how much i should remove??
should i take it down 2 or 3 notches then try it or more??
god i hate not knowing what to do!!!
glad you guys are here to help!!
11-04-07, 08:50 PM
#5
tom port.. AKA streetport
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so after searching im finding out i shouldnt even be removing fuel from the fuel map yet.....SHEEESHHH....LOL
so which one do i remove fuel from??
the post start MAP?
zero throttle MAP?
so which one do i remove fuel from??
the post start MAP?
zero throttle MAP?
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11-07-07, 02:57 PM
#8
tom port.. AKA streetport
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yeah, i been doing this. i had a couple pair of plugs and its just not starting.
ok i found out my timing was 6 degress retarded. got the timing dead nutz @ the yellow marker. checked the T1 and its right on the red marker. i tried starting it again with flooding again. i have the injectors all the way down to 2.464 right on 0 on the zero RPM range. i have both coresponding bars next to it down that far to with still flooding. is that close to where i need it for 850 primaries?
and for some reason im getting vaccum readings from the MAP sensor when im NOT cranking? its reading 2.2inHG without cranking??? could it be that my MAP sensor is shot?? its a 3 bar MAP sensor. if i unplug the sensor it sky rockets to 27inHG
also it doesnt help when its 40 degrees here:/
ok i found out my timing was 6 degress retarded. got the timing dead nutz @ the yellow marker. checked the T1 and its right on the red marker. i tried starting it again with flooding again. i have the injectors all the way down to 2.464 right on 0 on the zero RPM range. i have both coresponding bars next to it down that far to with still flooding. is that close to where i need it for 850 primaries?
and for some reason im getting vaccum readings from the MAP sensor when im NOT cranking? its reading 2.2inHG without cranking??? could it be that my MAP sensor is shot?? its a 3 bar MAP sensor. if i unplug the sensor it sky rockets to 27inHG
also it doesnt help when its 40 degrees here:/
Last edited by 88rxn/a; 11-07-07 at 03:09 PM.
11-08-07, 04:44 PM
#9
I would pull all 4 plugs and set them on a good ground, crank it and verify that indeed - all four plugs are firing good and healthy.
If your timing is close, you have fuel, and your sparkplugs are sparkin' - tow the bad boy down the road and get it going. Make sure to have your timing light, a decent amount of fuel, and a helper ready for when it fires up and you get back to the garage/work area.
If (lets say when
) it does start keep it running for as long as possible (watch temps etc.) since the objective will be to provide some break-in for the seals. What I've done in the past (on pre-mix motors with used housings) is to actually do the first start up on straight gas and let it run and idle away for a decent time (15 minutes or so) to help the seals seat initially.
From the sounds of it you're battling low compression - but you can verify that before trying anything drastic like bump starting by just takign a compression test. Keep in mind the numbers will be fundamentally flawed though since the engine isn't at running temp, so instead of low numbers - expect really low ones.
If your timing is close, you have fuel, and your sparkplugs are sparkin' - tow the bad boy down the road and get it going. Make sure to have your timing light, a decent amount of fuel, and a helper ready for when it fires up and you get back to the garage/work area.
If (lets say when
) it does start keep it running for as long as possible (watch temps etc.) since the objective will be to provide some break-in for the seals. What I've done in the past (on pre-mix motors with used housings) is to actually do the first start up on straight gas and let it run and idle away for a decent time (15 minutes or so) to help the seals seat initially.From the sounds of it you're battling low compression - but you can verify that before trying anything drastic like bump starting by just takign a compression test. Keep in mind the numbers will be fundamentally flawed though since the engine isn't at running temp, so instead of low numbers - expect really low ones.
11-09-07, 08:26 PM
#10
tom port.. AKA streetport
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i think i suck at timing. i started the base @ 65...cheked it with timing lock ON. i then moved the trugger anlge to about 71 to get it aligned with the pointer. i forgot to turn back OFF the lock timing......so today i had a buddy help with this. after seeing the timing was off after turning the lock OFF we adjusted the trigger angle untill it was set with the pointer (leading 1)...i turned it to like 92...... is that to far? should i have adjusted the CAS to get it closr first?
i then checked the trailing 1 and it wasnt exactly NEAR the pointer. trail 2 was in the same spot??
im asumming THIS is my problem...timing is EFFED up?
thanks for the info classic. i greatley app. it!
i then checked the trailing 1 and it wasnt exactly NEAR the pointer. trail 2 was in the same spot??
im asumming THIS is my problem...timing is EFFED up?
thanks for the info classic. i greatley app. it!
11-09-07, 10:06 PM
#11
Lives on the Forum
You're not doing it correctly.
Once you get it dialed in with LOCK ON, you're not supposed to adjust it.
The Haltech is changing ignition timing via base ignition map and any other ignition timing correction maps that has been programmed.
Unless all of these ignition timing maps are zero'd out (actually set to -5), it's not going to match...
We can't verify the ignition lock is correct, cause your motor can't run yet so don't worry about it moving around until you get the motor started.
Although it's harder to crank and start the motor with ignition timing lock ON, it should start once the maps are dialed in better.
Helpful hint, engines tend to crank and start and idle better with a little more ignition advance...
Sorry I haven't responded to your PM, but I really can't help you with emailing maps back and forth.
I haven't touched an E6K in years, so I've totally forgotten what should be set and how much fuel you should be running...
I've been wanting to post a more detailed reply, but things are super busy right now!
-Ted
Once you get it dialed in with LOCK ON, you're not supposed to adjust it.
The Haltech is changing ignition timing via base ignition map and any other ignition timing correction maps that has been programmed.
Unless all of these ignition timing maps are zero'd out (actually set to -5), it's not going to match...
We can't verify the ignition lock is correct, cause your motor can't run yet so don't worry about it moving around until you get the motor started.
Although it's harder to crank and start the motor with ignition timing lock ON, it should start once the maps are dialed in better.
Helpful hint, engines tend to crank and start and idle better with a little more ignition advance...
Sorry I haven't responded to your PM, but I really can't help you with emailing maps back and forth.
I haven't touched an E6K in years, so I've totally forgotten what should be set and how much fuel you should be running...
I've been wanting to post a more detailed reply, but things are super busy right now!
-Ted
11-10-07, 08:59 AM
#12
FWIW in the setups i've worked with, your 65-71 trigger angle settings are closer to the norm for zero'd timing then the 90 something you mention.
Ted is entirely correct on the zero'ing method - but you need to do that with the engine running so let's get there first
Ted is entirely correct on the zero'ing method - but you need to do that with the engine running so let's get there first
11-10-07, 12:21 PM
#13
tom port.. AKA streetport
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thanks for the reply's. yesterday (before i changed the trigger angle to 90) i managed to get a nice back fire....
hmmmmmm, i think i had it off when i was cranking the motor before.....
all i need to do left to make it "road worthy" is get my shifter back on and replace the slave cylinder (leaking) so ill do this ASAP and see if i can pop start this car.....
again, thanks for the help....at first i thought i was on my own on this one....
Although it's harder to crank and start the motor with ignition timing lock ON, it should start once the maps are dialed in better.
all i need to do left to make it "road worthy" is get my shifter back on and replace the slave cylinder (leaking) so ill do this ASAP and see if i can pop start this car.....
again, thanks for the help....at first i thought i was on my own on this one....
11-11-07, 11:18 AM
#14
tom port.. AKA streetport
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ok....so i got my shifter installed....exhaust is all on....
but first im gonna crank on it again......
im assuming from searching i need to adjust the primer MAP since its flooding on cranking right??? well....thats what im going to do....
i remember asking this somewhere and got no answer....
cause i really am not sure which map i need to adjust for cranking....
or is it the post start....
i just need to know which map im adjusting upon cranking~?
but first im gonna crank on it again......
im assuming from searching i need to adjust the primer MAP since its flooding on cranking right??? well....thats what im going to do....
i remember asking this somewhere and got no answer....
cause i really am not sure which map i need to adjust for cranking....
or is it the post start....
i just need to know which map im adjusting upon cranking~?
11-11-07, 11:49 AM
#15
Lives on the Forum
Yes, adjusting the PRIMER map will change fuel delivery only on cranking.
BTW, your cranking RPM's are dictated on how you set it up on the MAIN(?) settings page - it should show as cranking under XXX RPM.
-Ted
BTW, your cranking RPM's are dictated on how you set it up on the MAIN(?) settings page - it should show as cranking under XXX RPM.
-Ted
11-11-07, 12:22 PM
#16
Lives on the Forum
(Godfunit missed the edit window.)
Yes, adjusting the PRIMER map will change fuel delivery only on cranking.
BTW, your cranking RPM's are dictated on how you set it up on the MAIN(?) settings page - it should show as cranking under XXX RPM.
Concentrate on getting the engine to crank over and fire...
Once you can get the engine to do this like stock (fire on the 3rd rotation), then concentrate on the FUEL map to get the car to idle.
If the engine cranks over, fires and then floods, your FUEL map is set too rich.
If the engine cranks over and floods, then your PRIMER map is set too rich.
If the engine cranks over and the sound doesn't change, then your PRIMER map is too lean.
How can you tell the difference between too much or too little fuel on cranking?
If it floods, the engine will sometimes want to fire and then start to crank over a little faster.
If the engine cranks over with very little change in speed, it doesn't have enough gas.
Also, you can check your spark plugs - it'll be obvious if it floods.
-Ted
Yes, adjusting the PRIMER map will change fuel delivery only on cranking.
BTW, your cranking RPM's are dictated on how you set it up on the MAIN(?) settings page - it should show as cranking under XXX RPM.
Concentrate on getting the engine to crank over and fire...
Once you can get the engine to do this like stock (fire on the 3rd rotation), then concentrate on the FUEL map to get the car to idle.
If the engine cranks over, fires and then floods, your FUEL map is set too rich.
If the engine cranks over and floods, then your PRIMER map is set too rich.
If the engine cranks over and the sound doesn't change, then your PRIMER map is too lean.
How can you tell the difference between too much or too little fuel on cranking?
If it floods, the engine will sometimes want to fire and then start to crank over a little faster.
If the engine cranks over with very little change in speed, it doesn't have enough gas.
Also, you can check your spark plugs - it'll be obvious if it floods.
-Ted
11-11-07, 10:03 PM
#17
tom port.. AKA streetport
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thanks ted...
im guessing by your descriptions that im not getting enough fuel then because all it does is crank with any change in tone or speeding up from slight firing....
ill add MORE fuel to the PRIMER map since its just a steady crank with no change...
but the strange thing is the plugs get saturated but they arent SOAKED in fuel.
BTW: i figured out how to load the map in here......
im guessing by your descriptions that im not getting enough fuel then because all it does is crank with any change in tone or speeding up from slight firing....
ill add MORE fuel to the PRIMER map since its just a steady crank with no change...
but the strange thing is the plugs get saturated but they arent SOAKED in fuel.
BTW: i figured out how to load the map in here......
11-12-07, 04:38 AM
#18
Lives on the Forum
Periodically, check to make sure the spark plugs are firing consistently.
1) Disable fuel (unless you like seeing mists of fuel shoot out of your spark plug holes!)
2) Pull spark plugs but keep spark plug wires on them
3) Ground threads of spark plugs on known good ground - I use the strut tower studs as a convenient place
4) Have friend crank the motor
Watch to see you have a good, strong spark.
If spark is weak or inconsistent, replace them or burn the tips with a propane torch.
-Ted
11-12-07, 05:04 AM
#19
tom port.. AKA streetport
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LOL, I really dont know what i was trying to say either....
i guess obviously the plugs are getting saturated since they arent firing. they really arent even turning black...the leadings arent...the trailings are showing signs of being fired though....a little black carbon on them.im gonna give it a try again today when i get home form work (add MORE fuel)
again thanks for the assistance!
*edit*
spark seems good and strong.
11-12-07, 03:05 PM
#21
tom port.. AKA streetport
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actually a few times. i re-stabbed the CAS and had the leading (L1) dead nuts with the timing lock ON and set to -5. it's dead nutz now but i checked it last nite (forgot to mentioin this! UGH!) and the trailing both had the yellow (leading) markerd ligned up to the pointer...BOTH T1 AND T2 were lined up the the leading marker on the pulley...i printed the coil install sheet posted in my first post and triple checked the wiring...i dont know how i got it so wacked out??
11-12-07, 06:32 PM
#22
tom port.. AKA streetport
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WOOOOOTTTT!!
it runs!!
turns out the primer MAP was off. i added and added fuel and it started....
first it would stumble and would rotate faster.....i kept adding and it fired....
i attached the map i got it to run with....if you look youll see it has a ways to go.....
also, i re-stabbed the CAS and got it right this time....trailings are fine. T1 lines right up with the marker...T2 is 180 of T1.
L1 is lined right up....
thanks to everyone for the help and support...wouldnt of happen without the RX7CLUB and the rotor heads on it!!
it runs!!
turns out the primer MAP was off. i added and added fuel and it started....
first it would stumble and would rotate faster.....i kept adding and it fired....
i attached the map i got it to run with....if you look youll see it has a ways to go.....
also, i re-stabbed the CAS and got it right this time....trailings are fine. T1 lines right up with the marker...T2 is 180 of T1.
L1 is lined right up....
thanks to everyone for the help and support...wouldnt of happen without the RX7CLUB and the rotor heads on it!!
Last edited by 88rxn/a; 11-12-07 at 06:43 PM.
11-12-07, 06:50 PM
#23
Rotary Loco
Good news!
Am glad you got your car fired up,
I been following this thread and believe it or not it helps other learn from someone else mistakes.
Am planning on getting a Haltech for my project car, am doing alots of reading and hopefully everything goes smooth.
Andres
Am glad you got your car fired up,
I been following this thread and believe it or not it helps other learn from someone else mistakes.
Am planning on getting a Haltech for my project car, am doing alots of reading and hopefully everything goes smooth.
Andres
11-12-07, 06:54 PM
#24
tom port.. AKA streetport
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cool!
thanks man....if you get time check out the difference in the PRIMER maps between the 2 i posted. i thought i was flooding it from to much fuel, turned out that i didnt have enough and it would just crank (thanks TED!!). by no means is the MAP decent (ill clean it up later on) but it at least got it to fire and idle for at least 20 minutes...
thanks man....if you get time check out the difference in the PRIMER maps between the 2 i posted. i thought i was flooding it from to much fuel, turned out that i didnt have enough and it would just crank (thanks TED!!). by no means is the MAP decent (ill clean it up later on) but it at least got it to fire and idle for at least 20 minutes...