Haltech Elite tuning questions - VE tuning is that the best option?
#126
Full Member
Dunno whether you sorted this out, but I think I have the same problem.
Do you get it when you log all channels?
I have a feeling it is because you need to log Fuel Load and Ignition Load instead of just MAP. Even though they should be the same, technically your X-axis is the latter two for those tables, not MAP. So if you don't log it, you don't have that data to plot it on the table.
So question
1: in the ECU there is a setting for base pressure. what does that impact? the fuel fuel map? I could set it to 31psi and the VE map won't need to be updated?
2: If I turn the fuel pressure back up, Ill have to redo the VE map right...
3: whats everyone running for base pressure. Im running upgraded pumps and injectors I can run 43 base, not issues.
1: in the ECU there is a setting for base pressure. what does that impact? the fuel fuel map? I could set it to 31psi and the VE map won't need to be updated?
2: If I turn the fuel pressure back up, Ill have to redo the VE map right...
3: whats everyone running for base pressure. Im running upgraded pumps and injectors I can run 43 base, not issues.
From my understanding, based on the manifold pressure, air temperature and volumetric efficiency, the engine calculates how much air should theoretically enter the engine. Then it calculates how much fuel is required to meet the AFR target. It then calculates how much duty cycle it needs to provide to the injectors to provide this fuel - this is where the fuel pressure comes into play, as higher pressure = more flow for the same pulse width.
Higher pressure will reduce the flow of your pumps however. Most injectors and pump flows are usually quoted at 300kPa (43.5psi), which is the standard.
2.
Theoretically, you could change your fuel pressure setting to compensate. In other words, turn your pressure up on your regulator, then in the Haltech settings, set it to like 400kPa (not sure if it's linear, so you may need to play with it). But you should theoretically find the value where it all works out again.
#127
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
hey mate,
Ive not looked at it again but its done the timing issue replay error a few times now. I log all output (I have the lappy in the car when I go for a cruise) so no issued their.
In regards to the fuel, Im just doing the VE map again, was roughly a 20% but the angles in the VE map are different now. Not a biggie just need more time on the road to get it fixed.
Ive not looked at it again but its done the timing issue replay error a few times now. I log all output (I have the lappy in the car when I go for a cruise) so no issued their.
In regards to the fuel, Im just doing the VE map again, was roughly a 20% but the angles in the VE map are different now. Not a biggie just need more time on the road to get it fixed.
#128
Full Member
It's actually one of the features I'm a bit disappointed the Haltech didn't include.
On the Megasquirt, if you're running a fuel pressure sensor, I believe you can use that as an input for the fuel model calculations - so you're using an actual value instead of calculated value based on what you set your base fuel pressure to be.
Means you don't run into situations like this where your setting and your actual are different, so you have to go retune everything again.
On the Megasquirt, if you're running a fuel pressure sensor, I believe you can use that as an input for the fuel model calculations - so you're using an actual value instead of calculated value based on what you set your base fuel pressure to be.
Means you don't run into situations like this where your setting and your actual are different, so you have to go retune everything again.
#130
Full Member
Yeah, fair enough.
It does highlight one of the benefits of a VE method vs a "traditional" tuning method. If you set it up properly at the start, theoretically, you can make big changes to your system - injector size, fuel pressure, etc - and not have to retune your VE tables as long as your manifold and ports remain the same.
It does highlight one of the benefits of a VE method vs a "traditional" tuning method. If you set it up properly at the start, theoretically, you can make big changes to your system - injector size, fuel pressure, etc - and not have to retune your VE tables as long as your manifold and ports remain the same.
#131
www.lms-efi.com
iTrader: (27)
It's actually one of the features I'm a bit disappointed the Haltech didn't include.
On the Megasquirt, if you're running a fuel pressure sensor, I believe you can use that as an input for the fuel model calculations - so you're using an actual value instead of calculated value based on what you set your base fuel pressure to be.
Means you don't run into situations like this where your setting and your actual are different, so you have to go retune everything again.
On the Megasquirt, if you're running a fuel pressure sensor, I believe you can use that as an input for the fuel model calculations - so you're using an actual value instead of calculated value based on what you set your base fuel pressure to be.
Means you don't run into situations like this where your setting and your actual are different, so you have to go retune everything again.
#132
Full Member
You could argue it still gives the same result, but there's a bit more work involved in setting it up. Seems like it's wasting one of the possible benefits of using a VE model in the first place (that is, being able to model the system properly as a sum of individual components and parameters, and hence be able to more easily account for changes to any one of them without retuning).
#134
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Chris and Jarik, Thanks for that info. I really enjoy the commentary and different thoughts.
Really it's a bloody complex ecu and can do way more that what I want. If you know what to ask it.
I do have fuel pressure on my Defi's but I think I'm going to add a fuel pressure sensor for the haltech and update that info intot he injector parameters as I think its useful. I'd also like to think if I did have a fuel pressure failure the ECU would then pick up on it before I kill the donk.
But had a cruise on Saturday and got the map back to a good point. Really I've only gone to 3psi boost to date and I think I need to get a dyno to do it right.
Mantrx7 Cruising about tuning
Still having a lot of fun learning about all the in's and out's or tuning.
Really it's a bloody complex ecu and can do way more that what I want. If you know what to ask it.
I do have fuel pressure on my Defi's but I think I'm going to add a fuel pressure sensor for the haltech and update that info intot he injector parameters as I think its useful. I'd also like to think if I did have a fuel pressure failure the ECU would then pick up on it before I kill the donk.
But had a cruise on Saturday and got the map back to a good point. Really I've only gone to 3psi boost to date and I think I need to get a dyno to do it right.
Mantrx7 Cruising about tuning
Still having a lot of fun learning about all the in's and out's or tuning.
#135
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Also off topic.
For those that are using Megalog Viewer as well (Really I just use it to interogate my logs). As the haltech doesnt export the data the way the software wants it, I make these custom calculations. Really this is for reference. As I'm not use to using Kpa or Lambda.
For those that are using Megalog Viewer as well (Really I just use it to interogate my logs). As the haltech doesnt export the data the way the software wants it, I make these custom calculations. Really this is for reference. As I'm not use to using Kpa or Lambda.
#136
Rocket Appliances
iTrader: (11)
So attached is:
So basically I got the map from Haltech and looks really good, much more developed then their original base map for the 13B.
I then copied and screen shot all the maps to put them into excel file so i could copy the info into a new 13B map for the 1500 ECU.
From that point I starter modifying to suit my setup.
Anyway ECU is in, just need to start the repinning process. Looks easier than I originally throught.
- The Rx7 map from Hatech for the 2500 ECU.
- My Copy of the map in Excell
- My Draft Rx7 haltech 1500 ECU map.
So basically I got the map from Haltech and looks really good, much more developed then their original base map for the 13B.
I then copied and screen shot all the maps to put them into excel file so i could copy the info into a new 13B map for the 1500 ECU.
From that point I starter modifying to suit my setup.
- I think the ignition is all good to suit my system
- The closed boost.... NFI what Im doing there
- Trigger... looks wrong, FFE dont give much help on the Elite platform
- how do you do injector dead times? ID give to much info and I don't have fuel pressure loged....
Anyway ECU is in, just need to start the repinning process. Looks easier than I originally throught.
Anyone else get this error or have the updated map? I'd start a new thread but seems this is where it's already been/being discussed.
Skeese
#138
rotorhead
iTrader: (3)
Wait, why do you want fuel pressure compensation on a return fuel system with port injection? If the regulator is working correctly the pressure difference across the injector is always the base pressure unless it is an odd ball rising rate. So you don't need compensation. That's one of the reasons why you use a return fuel system in the first place. You just need good fuel lines, rails, etc.
#140
www.lms-efi.com
iTrader: (27)
I downloaded this haltech 2500 basemap and the latest software gave me a compatibity error about it having been developed using an older version than the newest V2.00.26. I emailed haltech asking for a more current version, however don't have a reply yet.
Anyone else get this error or have the updated map? I'd start a new thread but seems this is where it's already been/being discussed.
Skeese
Anyone else get this error or have the updated map? I'd start a new thread but seems this is where it's already been/being discussed.
Skeese
Actually, the problem is most likely that you haven't downloaded the definitions for the older maps. Use ESP Online to update the definitions.
#141
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
I downloaded this haltech 2500 basemap and the latest software gave me a compatibity error about it having been developed using an older version than the newest V2.00.26. I emailed haltech asking for a more current version, however don't have a reply yet.
Anyone else get this error or have the updated map? I'd start a new thread but seems this is where it's already been/being discussed.
Skeese
Anyone else get this error or have the updated map? I'd start a new thread but seems this is where it's already been/being discussed.
Skeese
Skeese,
When I had all those issues it was before haltech released the "official" basemaps. My FFE trigger issue looked like was a patch issue. Once I updated I got signal.
#142
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
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Relisys190 (04-03-23)
#144
Rocket Appliances
iTrader: (11)
Thanks for the quick shipping. The ECU will be here Thursday and I've got a 3 day weekend, so I'll be moving onto tuning really soon. I'll likely start another thread as what I'm doing will be unique, but this thread has alot of solid info I'll be using, so thanks to all.
Skeese
#145
www.lms-efi.com
iTrader: (27)
Thanks, will do. I need to spend more time exploring all the side functions of the software outside of just the tuning interface. I was mostly just looking for a basemap that had general I/O settings as close to my application as possible so i didn't have to change everything as well as oem sensor calibrations for the ones I still have but don't have datasheets on. I don't so much care about the tuning maps as I'll be redoing everything since my car is a far stretch from being anywhere near capable of running on values that drive a stock-ish FD.
Thanks for the quick shipping. The ECU will be here Thursday and I've got a 3 day weekend, so I'll be moving onto tuning really soon. I'll likely start another thread as what I'm doing will be unique, but this thread has alot of solid info I'll be using, so thanks to all.
Skeese
Thanks for the quick shipping. The ECU will be here Thursday and I've got a 3 day weekend, so I'll be moving onto tuning really soon. I'll likely start another thread as what I'm doing will be unique, but this thread has alot of solid info I'll be using, so thanks to all.
Skeese
#146
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
#147
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Afternoon all.
So got another cruise in on the weekend before I got the car dropped off the panel shop (getting a scratch fixed up)
Im slowly taking the car into boost. But I don't trust myself yet to go to hard (I know im being conservative!)
Just some questions im sure are simple that I dont understand.
Closed loop boost control:
So in open loop 40% duty did great boost control for me
In close the map below worked fine as well.
BUT: now that Im trying to not fully boost (just up to 7psi max for now) I can hear my WG opening?
So.. I must have something wrong in the map or the settings. I thought 100% was 100% closed but I must be wrong should this all be reversed?
Idle control:
So I run DBW. and Ive had it idle lower. But Im curious why my idle is set to 1000rpm. But the DWB is making it sit at about 1500?
Stumble
Lastly I find a small stumble on instant of takeofff. which is interesting I didn't have before I changed (upped the fuel pressure - change the dead times - changes the injector flow data - auto air temp corrections)
Im guessing this is deadtime thing? I dont really know enough about this yet..
Anyway my current tune and datalog attached - just FYI and so I can look back on in a years time
So got another cruise in on the weekend before I got the car dropped off the panel shop (getting a scratch fixed up)
Im slowly taking the car into boost. But I don't trust myself yet to go to hard (I know im being conservative!)
Just some questions im sure are simple that I dont understand.
Closed loop boost control:
So in open loop 40% duty did great boost control for me
In close the map below worked fine as well.
BUT: now that Im trying to not fully boost (just up to 7psi max for now) I can hear my WG opening?
So.. I must have something wrong in the map or the settings. I thought 100% was 100% closed but I must be wrong should this all be reversed?
Idle control:
So I run DBW. and Ive had it idle lower. But Im curious why my idle is set to 1000rpm. But the DWB is making it sit at about 1500?
Stumble
Lastly I find a small stumble on instant of takeofff. which is interesting I didn't have before I changed (upped the fuel pressure - change the dead times - changes the injector flow data - auto air temp corrections)
Im guessing this is deadtime thing? I dont really know enough about this yet..
Anyway my current tune and datalog attached - just FYI and so I can look back on in a years time
#149
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (1)
your closed loop map isn't set up correctly.
whatever boost level the 40% got you, put that under the target boost column.
whatever below that should be below 40%. whatever above it should be above 40% to reach desired boost level.
I basically copy/paste solenoid duty cycle map for 6 psi, 9 psi, and 12 psi individually with PID settings off. (or you can do it under open loop.) put that under closed loop setting under 6, 9, and 12psi.
thanks for the reply to my pm. can you provide the link? I didn't get it..
whatever boost level the 40% got you, put that under the target boost column.
whatever below that should be below 40%. whatever above it should be above 40% to reach desired boost level.
I basically copy/paste solenoid duty cycle map for 6 psi, 9 psi, and 12 psi individually with PID settings off. (or you can do it under open loop.) put that under closed loop setting under 6, 9, and 12psi.
thanks for the reply to my pm. can you provide the link? I didn't get it..
#150
Full Member
Wait, why do you want fuel pressure compensation on a return fuel system with port injection? If the regulator is working correctly the pressure difference across the injector is always the base pressure unless it is an odd ball rising rate. So you don't need compensation. That's one of the reasons why you use a return fuel system in the first place. You just need good fuel lines, rails, etc.
If you're referencing an actual measured fuel pressure value in your tune, then this won't actually affect your AFRs, as the ECU will compensate by increasing duty cycle times. Without that feature, you will lean.
Originally Posted by Havoc
So.. I must have something wrong in the map or the settings. I thought 100% was 100% closed but I must be wrong should this all be reversed?
Then a value of 100% will hold the wastegate closed = builds boost.
Think you have misunderstood the purpose of the base duty cycle tables. The columns are boost targets - not current measured MAP. Each column refers to what you have set in the Boost Target table and will only be enabled when that is set.
The best way to configure it IMO is this (and please correct me if I am wrong, I am actually in the same stage of tuning boost myself for the first time):
Disable Closed Loop (but stay in Closed Loop Mode)
1. Set all P, I and D values to zero (disable close loop)
Tune Base Tables
2. Set all values in your base duty cycle table to 0%
3. Let's choose a boost target to tune. Let's say, 15psi. Go to your Boost Target table and set everything to 15psi.
4. In your Base Duty Cycle Table, slowly increase all cells in the 15psi column (across that rpm range) until you hit 15psi at least one part of the rpm range. This column is the only one that matters at the moment, because that's your boost target (all other columns are disabled).
5. Now change the other cells in that column until you hit 15psi in all of those cells.
6. In the areas where you're still spooling, increase the duty cycle to 100% - but be careful on the spool point, because you may overboost there on a cool day where the turbo manifold is warm
7. Do this for all the other columns. So set the boost target to 10psi and in the 10psi column, tune it to 10psi. For the 13psi target tune to 13psi column. etc.
8. This means all the columns in the LEFT of your table should be set to 0% duty cycle - not 100%. Duty cycles should increase as you go from left to right in that table. Opposite of what you've done.
Re-enable Closed Loop
9. Now that you've set your open loop table, restore the PID settings.
10. Now set your boost targets in the closed loop boost targets table to what you want.
Last edited by Jarik; 07-07-17 at 10:41 PM.