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Elite tuning questions - VE tuning is that the best option?

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Old 07-10-17, 12:11 AM
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Jarik,

Thanks for that!

I assumed that the Duty Cycle map reacted like a fuel map, would see the dot drift around in the boost zones and be 100% duty and until it hit the 12psi zones (which is what I have it set to in the Target pressure for now). But as you noted should just go up and down one specific target pressure range - Seems weird you have 2 lots of RPM control to do that).

But I did find one of my other issued.

I got a small cruise in on the weekend and still tuning some of the boost zones. The boost setting I had incorrect the whole time was "control point offset". I orginally read this as the boost you wanted the close boost to react from. But it an offset from the target. I have 10psi in there (so technically tried to control boost from 12-10=2psi it turned on...) is Ive changed this back to 3 (which is default) and now turns on ay 12-3=9psi.

Also Ive been wanting the LTBT to work, but I dont think Ive had the engine into 60% min tps yet for it to activate.

Note: I think their is an error in the haltech help. It talks about a "Start Duty map" but this isnt in the haltech elite.

Note: looks like the elite and platinum had different configurations. I found this write up useful

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Old 07-10-17, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Havoc View Post
I assumed that the Duty Cycle map reacted like a fuel map, would see the dot drift around in the boost zones and be 100% duty and until it hit the 12psi zones (which is what I have it set to in the Target pressure for now). But as you noted should just go up and down one specific target pressure range - Seems weird you have 2 lots of RPM control to do that).
That's actually one of the ways HPAcademy recommends setting it up. Set it to Open Loop, and then use a 3D table with rpm vs MAP to set up a non-PID closed loop setup.

The reason I didn't go for that is I wanted the ability to quickly change my boost targets at the track. Eg, have a "safe" tune when it gets really hot, a "normal" tune and a "#yolo" tune for that last session at a time attack competition.

As for having rpm on your target boost table, I imagine that's if you wanted to do things like taper boost off at high rpm to reduce chance of knock, or alternatively, slowly build it up to avoid wheel spin at low rpm.

You can also employ strategies like reducing boost in lower gears to prevent wheel spin too.

I got a small cruise in on the weekend and still tuning some of the boost zones. The boost setting I had incorrect the whole time was "control point offset". I orginally read this as the boost you wanted the close boost to react from. But it an offset from the target. I have 10psi in there (so technically tried to control boost from 12-10=2psi it turned on...) is Ive changed this back to 3 (which is default) and now turns on ay 12-3=9psi.
Yeah, control point offset is basically when it turns off Enable Spool Assist (if you have it on) and turns on closed loop. It does this to prevent integrator wind up (since the magnitude of your integration scalar increases with time - you don't want it accumulating to some huge value while you're still spooling and then overshoot until it winds down).

Note: I think their is an error in the haltech help. It talks about a "Start Duty map" but this isnt in the haltech elite.
I'm guessing Start Duty Map in the PS2000 is the same as the Base Duty Map in the Elite.

Out of curiosity, did you change any of your values in the Controller Delay table?
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Old 07-19-17, 11:23 PM
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Hi guys.

thought id do an update. I got a cruise in last weekend. I was playing with my Zero timeing (-5 it idles a **** load better) but I was having issues with it hunting. Started to **** down so cruise got cut short

I then started going through my data logs that night and was just getting strange results.
I hoped on the haltech forum as I thought it couldn't be just me.

Anyway a setup error all along (and trick for young players)

So with data logging with the laptop I thought I loged all channels but I wasnt. The catch is you need to untick the box and manually select them all. For me it went from 100 channells loged to 414!

So now I have blue dots on my data logs! yay


See blue dot now on the timing map

Can see closed loop boost is acturally trying to do something.
Can see that Zero timing was trying to work as well.

Now can go back to playing with tuning
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Old 08-29-17, 01:21 AM
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Well small update as tuning been going really slowly. (just because its middle of winter and the roads are wet and with Semi's its safer to stay inside)

Well I was having issues with hunting at idle with -5 timing.
I did some reading and the issue was bloody obvious I was way to lean. I went from trying to get 14.7arf to 13.4 and its smoothed out quite nicely maintaining the -5 timing.



Im unsure why but Im taking this as just they know better then me. But my old and recent retune both put my Zero timing map at 10Deg. as I didnt like the idle I modified my map to this. Seems to have been working fine for me. Idle has come down from 2000 down to 1500 now. (I could likely drop it lower but happy at 1500)




Lastly I booked the dyno and going to go have a crack at doing it myself. Im not trying to go ***** out or anything, just want to learn and complete more of the map. As its just getting to quick for the road.



Ill do another reply after this one as I have some dyno tuning questions.
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Old 08-29-17, 01:49 AM
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Gents,

As noted Iím going to have a crack at the dyno and Iím keen to hear any tips you all have. Iíve not done it before, so am really treating this as a learning experice. I donít plan to change my timing Ė just the VE map and will have someone operating the dyno for me and Im not aiming to see new max power Ė just to learn and be safe. But im very keen to hear of any ďBest Practice waysĒ to do it.

So I read this:
https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo...ethods-971193/

And read some of the HP Academy threads as well.

But some of the info is old and may not be that relevant to Rx7ís

But some additional questions I had were:

I know the power runs are traditionally done in 4th (1:1) but for the tuning of cells do you still use 4th? Or 3rd gear?
Whats best practice?
I thought this in my head on how I would do it?


Or would you hold an RPM and then use the dyno to simulate more load (so dot moves across the map left to right on the flat?)


Then WOT runes after that in 4th?

Is there any issue with statically holding cells (Iím not planning to hold 8K but 6K?) so get good ARF data?

What are the key screens I should have up that maybe I donít use currently (eg knock Ė Target afr Ė Current atf Ė VE map screen)
Should I decrease STFT so that I get the primary VE more accurate? (is their an easy way to do this?)


Besides the boost and high rev cells. Are there any other cells on the map that are only easily achievable on the dyno? Perthís bloody flat so I donít see many hills, should I simulate something very steep or not worth it?
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Old 09-03-17, 12:56 AM
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Well since Im using this thread as a bit of a blog id better update it on my Dyno session went.

Just to give some background of why I went this way, was that although the previous tune was complete for the Pump fuel and not the E85 I knew the setting in the background were not setup correctly. Just because the other tuner wasnt use to haltechs.

And been in a small city, their is only really 3 tuners here and non do Haltech.

So since id now been conservative: but had a level of confidence that I woudl sit with a tuner (who knows nothing abotu rotors) but is an expert in Haltechs. I just wanted to learn more about the ins and outs and thats exactly what I got. I learnt heaps and very happy about the experience. Id recommend others to do something similar.

I know the below some will read as: oh I wouldn't have done thats. Thats a waste of time. But was all just part of the learning process.


First thing we discussed was to turn of the STFT and LTFT so we were dealing with the raw data. (seem logical but I know my other tuner didnt do this)

this was my previous map from street tuning (I hadnt really gone into any boost zones as too hard with only 1 person in the car)





We statically held the RPMs the same moving from left to right accross the same RPM cells. Previously Id only been using "Q" but on the dyno thats too slow, so "W" was more effective. Seems so simple again, but it was the case that we generally ha to do it 3x on each cell to ensure it really narrowed in. (I could only do it once on the road - why the dyno is so helpfull)
So started on the:
3K
4K
5K

which was bloody quick really. One a small change from my Start map




going up to the 6 and 7K range was progressed at a quicker rate quicker just to keep the heat down. We did a a fews stops as the manifolds were getting a bit hot. Doesnt like holding 7K for long.




I think its still clear to see their are some patches that done seem right, but I'll test those zones on the street and see how they look.

So all of that was good, basically did 3-7K and -17hg to 5psi.

So once got their started some light power runs.

The very first go the dyno operator guy says the staging is wrong. Funny this was never modified originally in the previous tune as well, but I know it was a difficult area to get ironed out previous. after a few plays we ending up with a staging of 55 /25. (Im running 1000/2000's this emoved the lean spot at just before boost coming on.) Stock setting was 88/30 from memory.

Really I have no idea is this is what other guys have been getting but this worked for us. We did play with fudging the flow rates to make this batter but the staging worked the best and smothed it out.









So we did some runs with just on wastegate spring pressure just at 10psi. Quite a differnt philosophy here. no more using the Q or W keys. Just modify the Cells in the one column a cell by cell based on the ARF tracked data.

The goal wasnt to get a perfect AFR, but to get it as flat as possiable. This then allow's us to move the entire column Up or Down to suit to then get the right ARF.

So Im not going for power but, we then moved to 13psi.
Was easy to see it was over boosting to 15-18psi straight up.
I'm glad he knew haltechs as the closed loop PID stock setting were way off!! I use the haltech boost solanoid and tradittionally you can run the default setting, but that was way off.

It feels that took about 20mins of runs to get this right. He was also very informative about how that trace mode is the best to do this in.

So once we got it holding 13psi tunes the rest of the 13psi row to suit about a 10.5afr. I know thats rich again is about seeing that the cells sho that the AFR looks flat and then you can change the entire column to suit.

final run was about 11afr so still a bit rich



(I'll postt he map in a tick)

Loved seeing a non-rotor guy going, **** Im doing 8K and it doesnt want to stop

I know that it did 405rwhp at 13psi previously at 11.5arf. but Ill do the rest. As least I know the setting in the background are correct now so will be heaps easier to me to move forward and complete the rest

So the major things that took the time to setup:
Closed Loop boost
Injector Staging
obviously the fuel map.

Knock never went past its predetermined thresholds which is good.

Timing I never touched from the original map I had from the pevious tuner.

So all up took about 3 hours. I wish filmed it (I tried but my gopro failed..) as I feel like I learned so much. I know there are hundreds of ways to do all. And obviously the easiers and most effecient way is to get a professional, BUT I wanted to learn how to do it, just not just drop it off and have ti come back with XYZ HP.

So on the street, **** it's awesome. Turned the STFT and LTFT back on and just feels... well just so punchy now. I think the main part was the staging and that the STFT is doing so much less, just feels so so effortless now. Boost control is spot on but I never noticed it been that off before.

Really looking forward to getting a few more KM's and will lean out the fuel a bit in the future.

Then save it all, and start all over again with E85!

I'll post my Boost control PID's in another post. Really dont know what he was doing there but its working much better now.

-Anth
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Old 09-03-17, 08:29 PM
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Your tuning the staging incorrectly. There's really no need to fool with the max and min duty percentages and that's not really doing anything for the actually mixture. Just changes the loads where the secondary injectors come on/off. He stage on and stage off fuel enrichment is what you need to manipulate to smooth out the transition. All of the Elites I've worked with have had acceptable staging transitions with the default settings. I'll usually go in and tweak it to get the fuel curve as flat as possible but the base settings usually provide a transition that can't be felt.
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Old 09-03-17, 10:32 PM
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Chris,

Great to get your feedback. Yeah, I was surprised but I was there watching a noticeable lean spot disappeared by changing this. We tried abotu 10 combinations to get it to this. It only occurs just as it steps into boost. Now that "Ive been driving it on the street, it feels great. But you would know more than us put together on this!

I wonder if its just the size of the injectors im running? (I wouldn't think so - many run this 1000 /2000 combo)

Wonder if my secondaries just get better atomization which is why I'm noticing it so much?

Anyway I have to do some more read on that and update it later if I think I have to.

Anyway final run. I know its still rich -Ill lean this out in my own time.


this is the previous one that Ill work my way back up to.






This down 40 Rwhp from my previous tune. but i'm fine with that. I'll keep refining it in due course. More interesting in the E85 now.

In regard to the Close loop boost settings. I went from Left (stock PID settings) to the right (new PID settings)



really as I noted before, he was doing more of this than me and knew what to look for. I was just spectating and learning.

Anyway thats where i'm up to.

Soon to start playing with E85 again.
-Anth

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Old 09-05-17, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by C. Ludwig View Post
Your tuning the staging incorrectly. There's really no need to fool with the max and min duty percentages and that's not really doing anything for the actually mixture. Just changes the loads where the secondary injectors come on/off. He stage on and stage off fuel enrichment is what you need to manipulate to smooth out the transition. All of the Elites I've worked with have had acceptable staging transitions with the default settings. I'll usually go in and tweak it to get the fuel curve as flat as possible but the base settings usually provide a transition that can't be felt.
^^ This is exactly right^^

I was fighting a lean condition that seemed like almost like a hiccup across what was otherwise a smooth AFR-On-Target pull. I initially added fuel in the map, which didn't seem right given it made for a mountain in an otherwise smooth area and still then didn't correct the issue.

In looking at the transition from the primary injectors to the second stage and saw this was happening directly after the staging regardless of what boost level or rpm it took place at.



I increased both the Stage On Fuel Enrichment and Duration by a significant amount and then backed it off from a rich condition until it would hit and hold target.

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Old 09-05-17, 10:13 PM
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I must admit I didnt realised that played such a large role in it. Though changing the transition was the better way to do it.

If this is the stock setting.


Chris and Skeese, what are you generally changing this to to suit 1000 / 2000's? (which seems a fairly standard these days.'

Skeese in that map you posted. I'm assuming that's just the relay from the stage 2 coming on (then the lean spot 0.4ms later) keen to see what the corrected staging looked like (and data log result after)
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Old 09-06-17, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Havoc View Post
I must admit I didnt realised that played such a large role in it. Though changing the transition was the better way to do it.

If this is the stock setting.


Chris and Skeese, what are you generally changing this to to suit 1000 / 2000's? (which seems a fairly standard these days.'

Skeese in that map you posted. I'm assuming that's just the relay from the stage 2 coming on (then the lean spot 0.4ms later) keen to see what the corrected staging looked like (and data log result after)
I'll look up what my final corrected settings ended up being when I get home today and post the corrected staging log.

I'm running ID1300s as stage 1 then ID2000 2200's as stage 2 and 3. That combined with my current setup where the outer secondary runners partially feed both the larger cosmo sized intake side ports and the 1" peripherals likely makes my fueling requirement a bit unique

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Old 09-12-17, 02:06 PM
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I'm still kinda fighting this, apparently I didnt get it as close as I thought. The stage on fuel enrichment duration table is setup with RAW rpm units, and I wonder if this is implying that if you stage at 4000 rpms you will only have 16 cycles of enrichment? Given 4500 rpms is 75 rev/sec at the shaft this seems really short. I feel like a duration should be set up using time in seconds or ms over engine cycles as this will be easier to gather usable data from a log for... right?

I go WOT, all is good on the primaries, asynch does its thing and I hold AFR after the punch.

Next I come up to staging mark with the afr on target, secondaries come online and meet the dropping primaries at now similar duty for the pair. AFR is on target still. Time starts.

AFR holds target for 0.5 seconds after duties conjoin, at 0.5s mark shoots lean for ~0.35 seconds and is back on target by 1 second total after the staging duties conjoined then it holds all the way up.

Seems to me it is just running dry too soon as the duration is too short which I'm thinking has something to do with the enlarged/extra ports im my motor as well as as the larger runner lower intake maifold.

I'm going to see this afternoon if an increased duration, or time based and increased duration fixes the issue.

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Old 09-21-17, 02:01 PM
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As was mentioned, there is no real difference with VE vs PW tuning when actually setting up the fuel map.

But, if you've entered all the correct values in regards to your injectors (flow rate, dead times etc) then once you have it tuned, if you change injectors down the road, all you need to do is change the injector data. The volumetric efficiency doesn't change unless you change something mechanical with the engine.
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Old 09-21-17, 10:39 PM
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hmm not sure what that has to do with the current conversation.
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Old 01-10-18, 10:34 PM
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So started my E85 tune today. Funney enought the VE numbers are very similar to my Pump VE numbers. Through there would be a larger difference (like 30%)

Still Early days. updates to come. Reallly need a second person to drive so I can press W & Q
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Old 01-11-18, 04:32 AM
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How would the pumping efficiency of the engine change because you changed fuels? VE can't change. Only the stoichiometric value of the fuel has changed.

With the Elite, when flex fuel is enabled, a base compensation is done in the background. So offset values, in theory, should be zero. In effect though, you'll have small varied compensation.
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Old 01-12-18, 06:27 PM
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yeah, thats interesting. Was really just an observation/ I guess with the fuel burning cooler there might have been some changes in the VE's.

Ive only just started but Im seeing lower VE's overall by about 5-9%. But its still early days, I really need yo get it on a dyno
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Old 02-13-18, 03:31 AM
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Hi Chris (and others)

So Ive got a dyno booked for next week to do the E85 tune. So will see how I go.

My question is based around the previous comment of
"How would the pumping efficiency of the engine change because you changed fuels? VE can't change"

Because of that statement Im now thinking what am I doing that's wrong?
I know I only have limited km's up on it. But there is no way it likes the pump fuel VE map. So is that purely dictated by the Scalar map? (I would have assumed these scalars would be fairly general )

These are my scalar settings.

So if the








So a point like 3psi at 4500 rpm. Im a good 125VE vs 103VE now (~8% difference) . With no change in AFR.
So should I just change my scalar? Is that causing the

Or not bother. I guess in the 4D tuning, I can just hop on the dyno. Tune is like I did previously and just be done with it (which I will likely do)

But just curious more than anything?

Thanks Anthony
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Old 02-13-18, 06:57 PM
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What is your Fuel Type setting?
It could be a scalar issue or it could be a fuel stoichiometry issue. I always leave the scalar as a linear interpolation. Fuel isn't fuel though. Some pump gas, for example, can vary in stoichiometry value from around 14.2 to 15:1. It's rarely actually 14.7:1. So that will effect Lambda readings and tune up. My point in saying that VE doesn't change is that the air pumping efficiency doesn't change. That's what VE is. VE really has nothing to do with fuel, only air. So the engine is going to pump the same amount of air, theoretically, regardless of the fuel you burn. That assumes you're not inducing oxygenated fuels. So, again, in theory, you'd have the same VE fuel map for gasoline and E85 and the ECU would make a simple stoichiometric adjustment in the background. If you have the ECU setup correctly, it's making that adjustment but in most all cases it's not going to be perfectly correct because of all the variables. That's why we have 4D tuning... So I would recommend 1) to use consistent fuel. And 2) tune the VE map for the fuel you have and not sweat the details.
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Old 02-13-18, 07:35 PM
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Thank's Chris.

Fuel type is = Fuel flex. The % reads and shows up all fine.
Consistent fuel = is fine. I only use the one servo place for E85. and for Pump.
Cool will just tune the 4D and see what I get.

Yeah I was happy with how I was going to do it. Only got a bit concerned when you mentioned I should "technically" have the same VE. But thanks for the clarification
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Old 02-24-18, 09:19 PM
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hey fella's.

Well small update I booked some time onto the dyno to do my E85 tune.
Things were going fin then as I started to do some of the higher loads I was having some major staging issues (which I find weird as I didnt have that issue on the pump map)

I could be in a cell, and just tip over the 80% primary demand it the secondarys would kick in. AFR's in the same cell could go from a 12.5 to a 10.5 in a instant.
Stage 1 duty cycle would go from 80% down to 35% in an instant.

You can see the Diagional stage hump it generated. I know I have a setting incorrect. So I stoped and once I get it sorted I'll go back and redo it.

Amazing how much these 13B's love E85. Low coolant temps. Low exhaust temps. Low oil temps love it.

you can see the weird staging line Im now getting
Map attached.

Cheers for any idea's, Im assuming it something simple ive just missed.

Oh I run 2x1000 IDs primarys and 2x2000cc IDs secondaries. So nothing to complex. As noted all worked find on the pump map
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Old 02-27-18, 07:43 AM
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data log from a criuise tonight. goes with the map above. bloody annoying goes from 12afr to 10 when the stage 2 kicks in
Stage 1 from 80% to 20% then stage 2 is overfueling it.
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data log test.zip (1.05 MB, 3 views)

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Old 02-27-18, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Havoc View Post
data log from a criuise tonight. goes with the map above. bloody annoying goes from 12afr to 10 when the stage 2 kicks in
Stage 1 from 80% to 20% then stage 2 is overfueling it.
I'm at work so I'm not where I can look at the tune and logs. Do you log the primary and secondary duty cycle? And what is the "stage on enrichment" and duration set to? Does is stay rich once staged or come back towards target once the secondaries are flowing?

Skeese

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Old 02-27-18, 07:22 PM
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Thanks Skeese.

Any help would be much appreciated. Im sure its just a setting.
We did play with the one stage enrichment on the dyno but it didnt do much.

This is a static load

But from going down the freeway last night. Trying to hold a single cell, but it just kicks in the secondaries and then goes Rich.

It will hold that rich as well (Im sure the short term trim then tries to fix it)
But as noted, I didn't have the issue on the pump fuel?



l the staging loged in the data logs.
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Old 02-27-18, 07:35 PM
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Turn down stage on fuel enrichment and probably shorten the duration.
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