When ALS apex seals break
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11-30-11, 10:23 AM
#8
Doing the Ricky Bobby
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Secondly, detonation is the usual cause of blown apex seals. How exactly is this proof of anything besides you are capable of ruining a new seal?
11-30-11, 03:39 PM
#12
Are people still debating if these seals are worth the money. They take the same abuse as teh Super Seals and dont eat your housings. I cant see why people still question it.
As for 100k miles I dont know, most Fds havent reached that mileage in 20 years, and those are the cars I deal with. I do have several customers over 20k miles without issue still pulling great vacuum and the car hot starting great.
Sk8twrld's car is well documented here on the forum. Runs low 6s in the 1/8th at 110mph, around 15k miles on it now with ALS seals and a bunch of drag racing at around 30psi on that motor. Never the less it was his first engine rebuild he ever performed.
Not saying they are a miracle seal, but for someone who wants to beat on their car, turn up the boost and not constantly worry about losing their engine when boost spikes a couple pounds they are the answer.
There are a lot of these seals out there now and not much bad press if any. Hard to argue against them.
Im not here to bash one seal or promote one over the other, I really dont care. If I feel another seal comes out that is better I will switch in a heart beat. Until that happens I run ALS in every build I do unless a customer requests otherwise.
As for 100k miles I dont know, most Fds havent reached that mileage in 20 years, and those are the cars I deal with. I do have several customers over 20k miles without issue still pulling great vacuum and the car hot starting great.
Sk8twrld's car is well documented here on the forum. Runs low 6s in the 1/8th at 110mph, around 15k miles on it now with ALS seals and a bunch of drag racing at around 30psi on that motor. Never the less it was his first engine rebuild he ever performed.
Not saying they are a miracle seal, but for someone who wants to beat on their car, turn up the boost and not constantly worry about losing their engine when boost spikes a couple pounds they are the answer.
There are a lot of these seals out there now and not much bad press if any. Hard to argue against them.
Im not here to bash one seal or promote one over the other, I really dont care. If I feel another seal comes out that is better I will switch in a heart beat. Until that happens I run ALS in every build I do unless a customer requests otherwise.
11-30-11, 04:19 PM
#13
Are people still debating if these seals are worth the money. They take the same abuse as teh Super Seals and dont eat your housings. I cant see why people still question it.
As for 100k miles I dont know, most Fds havent reached that mileage in 20 years, and those are the cars I deal with. I do have several customers over 20k miles without issue still pulling great vacuum and the car hot starting great.
Sk8twrld's car is well documented here on the forum. Runs low 6s in the 1/8th at 110mph, around 15k miles on it now with ALS seals and a bunch of drag racing at around 30psi on that motor. Never the less it was his first engine rebuild he ever performed.
Not saying they are a miracle seal, but for someone who wants to beat on their car, turn up the boost and not constantly worry about losing their engine when boost spikes a couple pounds they are the answer.
There are a lot of these seals out there now and not much bad press if any. Hard to argue against them.
Im not here to bash one seal or promote one over the other, I really dont care. If I feel another seal comes out that is better I will switch in a heart beat. Until that happens I run ALS in every build I do unless a customer requests otherwise.
As for 100k miles I dont know, most Fds havent reached that mileage in 20 years, and those are the cars I deal with. I do have several customers over 20k miles without issue still pulling great vacuum and the car hot starting great.
Sk8twrld's car is well documented here on the forum. Runs low 6s in the 1/8th at 110mph, around 15k miles on it now with ALS seals and a bunch of drag racing at around 30psi on that motor. Never the less it was his first engine rebuild he ever performed.
Not saying they are a miracle seal, but for someone who wants to beat on their car, turn up the boost and not constantly worry about losing their engine when boost spikes a couple pounds they are the answer.
There are a lot of these seals out there now and not much bad press if any. Hard to argue against them.
Im not here to bash one seal or promote one over the other, I really dont care. If I feel another seal comes out that is better I will switch in a heart beat. Until that happens I run ALS in every build I do unless a customer requests otherwise.
my point was the picture is pointless. i hate it when people try to use marketing ploys like bent seals like it's supposed to mean something. ALS has a reputation for durable seals, but any idiot can take a non hardened piece of metal and twist/bend it, it means nothing.
all i see in this thread is 2 wasted apex seals for no apparent reason, unless they were junk to begin with? well i hope not, that might actually give a negative impression.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-30-11 at 04:23 PM.
11-30-11, 04:36 PM
#14
It's not really a debate but rather a question. At least in terms of my question. Anything soft enough to not break (as in not hard enough to be brittle) is going to get questioned in terms of long term reliability. I understand they are probably going to go into engines that are beat to crap that don't go very long between rebuilds but in regards to my question that really doesn't matter. Many people crapped on Hurley seals in n/a engines because they wore out sooner than stock seals due to being soft so I'm asking the same question. The fact that they don't eat your housings is proof that they are soft. Hurley said theirs reduced housing wear too and they did but at their expense. Based on that it is safe to ask, does this lack of hardness with these ALS seals cause accelerated seal wear compared to other seals? Logic would say yes. It's a legit question. Will they last as long as a stock seal in a non-boosted engine? My money says no but if they can top 100K then that probably isn't a concern. I've had engines go over 200K on stock seals though but I don't daily drive them anymore so that high of a mileage really isn't a concern anymore. I'm not trying to bash them. I'm trying to see if they are a seal I'd consider using.
11-30-11, 04:42 PM
#15
the OEMs would have gone twice that if they weren't 3 piece seals, just sayin. for longevity nothing beats the OEM, that is a fact, and it is why mazda used their materials for the seals. of course mazda also didn't expect people to start pushing the boost up to and well beyond 10 psi where detonation is much more likely to occur.
but that's off topic, i just wanted people to realize that the OEMs weren't that bad, they had a specific aim and met it.
i'd be curious how these seals hold up against wear as well. usually when you trade hardness for toughness the softer materials sacrifice themselves in friction situations.
BUT i'd specifically use a bendable seal for lower mileage higher horsepower builds. for longevity near stock horsepower(ie naturally aspirated) i would use a more hardened durable seal. both with additional lubrication over the stock OMP system.
but that's off topic, i just wanted people to realize that the OEMs weren't that bad, they had a specific aim and met it.
i'd be curious how these seals hold up against wear as well. usually when you trade hardness for toughness the softer materials sacrifice themselves in friction situations.
BUT i'd specifically use a bendable seal for lower mileage higher horsepower builds. for longevity near stock horsepower(ie naturally aspirated) i would use a more hardened durable seal. both with additional lubrication over the stock OMP system.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-30-11 at 04:47 PM.
11-30-11, 04:53 PM
#17
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Yup. I think that's a good strategy. A good source told me that these seals are likely about 40K-50K miles worth.
How do the Goopy seals compare to these ALS ones? I've heard good things about both, many think that they are comparable. Could they be from the same source (the rotary community can be very secretive)?
How do the Goopy seals compare to these ALS ones? I've heard good things about both, many think that they are comparable. Could they be from the same source (the rotary community can be very secretive)?
the OEMs would have gone twice that if they weren't 3 piece seals, just sayin. for longevity nothing beats the OEM, that is a fact, and it is why mazda used their materials for the seals. of course mazda also didn't expect people to start pushing the boost up to and well beyond 10 psi where detonation is much more likely to occur.
but that's off topic, i just wanted people to realize that the OEMs weren't that bad, they had a specific aim and met it.
i'd be curious how these seals hold up against wear as well. usually when you trade hardness for toughness the softer materials sacrifice themselves in friction situations.
BUT i'd specifically use a bendable seal for lower mileage higher horsepower builds. for longevity near stock horsepower(ie naturally aspirated) i would use a more hardened durable seal. both with additional lubrication over the stock OMP system.
but that's off topic, i just wanted people to realize that the OEMs weren't that bad, they had a specific aim and met it.
i'd be curious how these seals hold up against wear as well. usually when you trade hardness for toughness the softer materials sacrifice themselves in friction situations.
BUT i'd specifically use a bendable seal for lower mileage higher horsepower builds. for longevity near stock horsepower(ie naturally aspirated) i would use a more hardened durable seal. both with additional lubrication over the stock OMP system.
11-30-11, 04:57 PM
#18
Yup. I think that's a good strategy. A good source told me that these seals are likely about 40K-50K miles worth.
How do the Goopy seals compare to these ALS ones? I've heard good things about both, many think that they are comparable. Could they be from the same source (the rotary community can be very secretive)?
How do the Goopy seals compare to these ALS ones? I've heard good things about both, many think that they are comparable. Could they be from the same source (the rotary community can be very secretive)?
11-30-11, 09:49 PM
#20
Goopy and ALS are not the same seals. Ive also heard good things about Goopy seals. Until someone claims they found the miracle seal I know what I am using. I have seen ALS seals take abuse OEM and some other seals simply would not. Ive seen them make more compression on the same exact set of housings as other "unbreakable" seals.
Once again, they arent the answer for everyone. There is still the very small majority of people who are happy with 200hp engine, not knocking anyone for that. However, most of the rotary scene these days are guys running expensive turbo setups, and spend a lot of money on their rebuilds and want them to take some abuse. For the amount of time the seal has been on the market it has been nothing but positive. Ive been using them for almost 3 years now with nothing but great feed back. Time will only tell how many miles one can expect out of these in an NA setup or stock turbo setup that will go over 50k miles.
Once again, they arent the answer for everyone. There is still the very small majority of people who are happy with 200hp engine, not knocking anyone for that. However, most of the rotary scene these days are guys running expensive turbo setups, and spend a lot of money on their rebuilds and want them to take some abuse. For the amount of time the seal has been on the market it has been nothing but positive. Ive been using them for almost 3 years now with nothing but great feed back. Time will only tell how many miles one can expect out of these in an NA setup or stock turbo setup that will go over 50k miles.
11-30-11, 09:54 PM
#21
The first pic is from a set of seals I sent to Steve where one of the small apex seal pieces was lost somehow so I sent him another full seal thanks to Edgar at E&J.
The second seal is just a seal they use for advertising at different rotary events.
Keep in mind, I will likely build 2-3 engines in all of 2012 as it is more of a hobby nowadays than any form of business. I really have no dog in this fight. I just feel this strongly about the seals.
11-30-11, 09:57 PM
#22
I should add one thing. I did see a set of JHB cermet A housings wear a set of these seals out in only a couple thousand miles. Another set of housings from the same batch also ate a set of OEM 3mm seals in a couple thousand miles. Just trying to keep the facts straight.
11-30-11, 10:54 PM
#24
I should add one thing. I did see a set of JHB cermet A housings wear a set of these seals out in only a couple thousand miles. Another set of housings from the same batch also ate a set of OEM 3mm seals in a couple thousand miles. Just trying to keep the facts straight.
not to mention their basic theft of good quality parts replaced with crap used worn out components.
09-07-12, 02:57 PM
#25
D.I.L.U.S.I.
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been on my set for 4 years and around 40k miles with weekends of playing im rebuilding my turbo now but the engine is still as fresh as when i closed it.. luv these seals