ALS apex seals
03-31-09, 10:15 PM
#51
They are the only seal out there with proper testing done on them in terms of housing compatibility, long term wear, resonance and crowning. The testing Mazda does on seals is far beyond anyone’s.
As far as unbreakable and being the same correct wear characteristics well you can’t have best of both worlds now. RE amemiya is still using the old stock 3 piece in his gt car. Mazda seal is soft on the flanks while only hard on the face. Mazda seals vary in hardness to protect the rotor slot. Something only Mazda has been able to achieve in seal production. If you actually break a Mazda seal in half you can see how the metals vary across the seal to cause them to bend and crown in specific key areas. I would like to see what Hot compression numbers are after 5kmi with the ALS seals and see if there is any warpage after a little bit. Flip the seals upside and down and compare the grooving with OEM seals and the rotor grooves after usage. I would be interested in seeing how well the springs held up and if the seals toasted the springs or not.
Metallurgical problems are a top factor of why a shop would be unable to produce a seal that would meet the kind of criteria and consistency Mazda does. What another company is producing is near impossible to keep the consistency from seal to seal. RA and Atkins have proven this a thousand times. There is allot more to apex seals, springs, and sealing life than just milling lapping something hard into the correct size and putting it into the motor. If anyone remembers all the issues RA had then they came out with the new black seals it was anti wear coating and they do prove to last a couple extra miles but when that coating wears off it’s the same old seal with the same old problems. The issue is the metallurgical of the seal.
I was referencing RA seals because they are the "Harder" more "Unbreakable" seal type. Then we decided to go back to 3mm seals great idea the 3 mm seals will not put the same pressure on the surface past a given rpm causing them to float plus the added mass will create more housing wear and increased chatter. Attached is a picture of what housings will look like when the seals are too hard.
As far as unbreakable and being the same correct wear characteristics well you can’t have best of both worlds now. RE amemiya is still using the old stock 3 piece in his gt car. Mazda seal is soft on the flanks while only hard on the face. Mazda seals vary in hardness to protect the rotor slot. Something only Mazda has been able to achieve in seal production. If you actually break a Mazda seal in half you can see how the metals vary across the seal to cause them to bend and crown in specific key areas. I would like to see what Hot compression numbers are after 5kmi with the ALS seals and see if there is any warpage after a little bit. Flip the seals upside and down and compare the grooving with OEM seals and the rotor grooves after usage. I would be interested in seeing how well the springs held up and if the seals toasted the springs or not.
Metallurgical problems are a top factor of why a shop would be unable to produce a seal that would meet the kind of criteria and consistency Mazda does. What another company is producing is near impossible to keep the consistency from seal to seal. RA and Atkins have proven this a thousand times. There is allot more to apex seals, springs, and sealing life than just milling lapping something hard into the correct size and putting it into the motor. If anyone remembers all the issues RA had then they came out with the new black seals it was anti wear coating and they do prove to last a couple extra miles but when that coating wears off it’s the same old seal with the same old problems. The issue is the metallurgical of the seal.
I was referencing RA seals because they are the "Harder" more "Unbreakable" seal type. Then we decided to go back to 3mm seals great idea the 3 mm seals will not put the same pressure on the surface past a given rpm causing them to float plus the added mass will create more housing wear and increased chatter. Attached is a picture of what housings will look like when the seals are too hard.
03-31-09, 10:29 PM
#52
Passing life by
I would say that these ALS seals are softer than the OEM seals, not harder and that's why they bend instead of break. Usually harder means more brittle. When OEM seals break they take out housings, rotors, plates, turbos, etc.- When these ALS seals detonate they will bend and will not break and in most cases the internals are saved. OEM not the case. .
Well that is the point why wouldn't you build a motor that can last instead of taking it out? RE runs on stock 3peace seals for full seasons before rebuilds. In fact there is no more 3peace stock because when Mazda ceased production the Japanese race teams bought up all the stock available.
03-31-09, 10:42 PM
#53
[ Well that is the point why wouldn't you build a motor that can last instead of taking it out? RE runs on stock 3peace seals for full seasons before rebuilds. In fact there is no more 3peace stock because when Mazda ceased production the Japanese race teams bought up all the stock available.[/QUOTE]
Well, how much boost and power is this RE making on these stock 3 piece seals?Of course if you use moderate boost and not pushing the motor to extreme max power levels, you're going to be able to use the engine longer.
All I know is that most of the world records, at least in drag racing, are done with apex seals other than OEM and most are with ceramics.
Well, how much boost and power is this RE making on these stock 3 piece seals?Of course if you use moderate boost and not pushing the motor to extreme max power levels, you're going to be able to use the engine longer.
All I know is that most of the world records, at least in drag racing, are done with apex seals other than OEM and most are with ceramics.
03-31-09, 10:54 PM
#54
Passing life by
Most of the problems start to really exhibit when the motor is pushed passed moderate boost levels that’s where OEM seals prove themselves. Pore tuning tends to give things a worse name then they earned. Remember some of the ceramics are OEM certified and were talking about steel metallurgical not an entire different spectrum of materials. Mazda discussed using ceramic seals in the FE and again was ultimately doomed because of cost vs economics when they have perfected another seal that will do the job more than acceptable. Mazda actualy did there homework
Even the billet rotors I know someone tried to compare them to standard aluminum which it’s far different I am all for billet! I have been using billet parts inside my race motors for well over a decade and I love them. The simple fact that Mazda uses a machine the size of your house on seismograph levelers to mill them for preciseness. It becomes almost apparent that no one else is just going to simple slap a rotor together on the same standards. I am sure we can put out on small quantity with rigorous guidelines accepting parts failures to be thrown away eating the cost in time and materials that we could put a select number of parts out. This is just past the main stream availability.
Even the billet rotors I know someone tried to compare them to standard aluminum which it’s far different I am all for billet! I have been using billet parts inside my race motors for well over a decade and I love them. The simple fact that Mazda uses a machine the size of your house on seismograph levelers to mill them for preciseness. It becomes almost apparent that no one else is just going to simple slap a rotor together on the same standards. I am sure we can put out on small quantity with rigorous guidelines accepting parts failures to be thrown away eating the cost in time and materials that we could put a select number of parts out. This is just past the main stream availability.
04-01-09, 01:14 AM
#55
My take is i blew one motor with stock seals and it cost me $1200 to put it back together. I had another failure using ALS seals and it cost me $150 to get her up and running again. That ALONE is enough to make my mind up. I have too much money tied up in my motor to take a chance with part destroying stock seals. On my last motor that i attempted to tune (big mistake) i split the rear iron into two pieces and dented doth rotors. Those exact same seals are in my motor right now making 764hp!
You don't know that
You don't know that
04-01-09, 04:39 AM
#56
Rotary Enthusiast
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Hey Allen,
Why is it that the guys whom argue against these seals have never tried them? Always quoting something from the past. It's crazy. Sometimes it does not matter what the guys who tried these seals say there are always going to be the one guys who is ignorant, for the lack of words.
And yes I have tried them. Anyone can make great power on any seal if they can tune. These seals are really for the beginner tuner. As long as you keep the EGTs down they will last. I beat on these seals for over 100 1/4 passes. Often times my AFR would go into the high 13s with boost over 25psi. My EGTs would be over 2000f. I did finally bend them ending in no compression. I have blown a few motor using OEM and Atkins and I know ALS seals kept on ticking when the other seals would have broke, taking out a rotor and housing. When I finally bent the ALS seals from extreme heat I replaced them with a set of Atkins seals I had laying around and ran my best times. (Same rotors and housing) Then tried the laughing gas and blew a Atkins seal and took out a rotor and housing.
Blow and motor on ALS seals you replace the seals. Blow and motor on breakable seals and you buy seals, rotor, housing, maybe a turbo then you have to do some porting work. choice is yours!!!!
please excuse the grammar
Why is it that the guys whom argue against these seals have never tried them? Always quoting something from the past. It's crazy. Sometimes it does not matter what the guys who tried these seals say there are always going to be the one guys who is ignorant, for the lack of words.
And yes I have tried them. Anyone can make great power on any seal if they can tune. These seals are really for the beginner tuner. As long as you keep the EGTs down they will last. I beat on these seals for over 100 1/4 passes. Often times my AFR would go into the high 13s with boost over 25psi. My EGTs would be over 2000f. I did finally bend them ending in no compression. I have blown a few motor using OEM and Atkins and I know ALS seals kept on ticking when the other seals would have broke, taking out a rotor and housing. When I finally bent the ALS seals from extreme heat I replaced them with a set of Atkins seals I had laying around and ran my best times. (Same rotors and housing) Then tried the laughing gas and blew a Atkins seal and took out a rotor and housing.
Blow and motor on ALS seals you replace the seals. Blow and motor on breakable seals and you buy seals, rotor, housing, maybe a turbo then you have to do some porting work. choice is yours!!!!
please excuse the grammar
04-01-09, 10:55 AM
#57
Als seals vs oem and others
From the first time that I got involve with rotaries, the problem was that the oem seals damage everything when they broke. Then, the aftermarket seals did not seal, they left chatter marks, they bend to fast, so on.
Well to answer all question, our seals are design to mazda specs. second, they do not leave any chatter marks and they marry the housings, just like mazda does. We took a motor and place the seals with no spring clearance so they would wear. When the motor lost compression, we took them out and the housing and plates were in perfect condition, a bit of shine but no grooves and no chatter.
So as a customer this is what we are looking for a product that work and does not destroy. The sealing power is excellent and there is no damage to the housings, A+.
Is hard to belive but is true. To those who dont belive, try them and see how great they are.
Well to answer all question, our seals are design to mazda specs. second, they do not leave any chatter marks and they marry the housings, just like mazda does. We took a motor and place the seals with no spring clearance so they would wear. When the motor lost compression, we took them out and the housing and plates were in perfect condition, a bit of shine but no grooves and no chatter.
So as a customer this is what we are looking for a product that work and does not destroy. The sealing power is excellent and there is no damage to the housings, A+.
Is hard to belive but is true. To those who dont belive, try them and see how great they are.
04-01-09, 12:11 PM
#58
Hey Allen,
Why is it that the guys whom argue against these seals have never tried them? Always quoting something from the past. It's crazy. Sometimes it does not matter what the guys who tried these seals say there are always going to be the one guys who is ignorant, for the lack of words.
And yes I have tried them. Anyone can make great power on any seal if they can tune. These seals are really for the beginner tuner. As long as you keep the EGTs down they will last. I beat on these seals for over 100 1/4 passes. Often times my AFR would go into the high 13s with boost over 25psi. My EGTs would be over 2000f. I did finally bend them ending in no compression. I have blown a few motor using OEM and Atkins and I know ALS seals kept on ticking when the other seals would have broke, taking out a rotor and housing. When I finally bent the ALS seals from extreme heat I replaced them with a set of Atkins seals I had laying around and ran my best times. (Same rotors and housing) Then tried the laughing gas and blew a Atkins seal and took out a rotor and housing.
Blow and motor on ALS seals you replace the seals. Blow and motor on breakable seals and you buy seals, rotor, housing, maybe a turbo then you have to do some porting work. choice is yours!!!!
please excuse the grammar
Why is it that the guys whom argue against these seals have never tried them? Always quoting something from the past. It's crazy. Sometimes it does not matter what the guys who tried these seals say there are always going to be the one guys who is ignorant, for the lack of words.
And yes I have tried them. Anyone can make great power on any seal if they can tune. These seals are really for the beginner tuner. As long as you keep the EGTs down they will last. I beat on these seals for over 100 1/4 passes. Often times my AFR would go into the high 13s with boost over 25psi. My EGTs would be over 2000f. I did finally bend them ending in no compression. I have blown a few motor using OEM and Atkins and I know ALS seals kept on ticking when the other seals would have broke, taking out a rotor and housing. When I finally bent the ALS seals from extreme heat I replaced them with a set of Atkins seals I had laying around and ran my best times. (Same rotors and housing) Then tried the laughing gas and blew a Atkins seal and took out a rotor and housing.
Blow and motor on ALS seals you replace the seals. Blow and motor on breakable seals and you buy seals, rotor, housing, maybe a turbo then you have to do some porting work. choice is yours!!!!
please excuse the grammar
Yeah Chuck, we definitely put them to a test
04-01-09, 09:20 PM
#59
Passing life by
RE A sells factory comp steal apex seals its 900$ last time I checked for the set they come with side seals and all. When OEM seals wont make the cut thats the next choice in steal seals. Theres no wonder tricks out there I nor anyone else is going to have that magical engineering to out due Mazda there 50 years of research of an entire team with billions of dolors.
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 04-06-09 at 08:36 AM.
04-01-09, 10:25 PM
#60
I'm impressed you got something dead on and didn't fall for all the hype and the RX7 infamous shiny new parts illness.
RE A sells factory comp steal apex seals its 900$ last time I checked for the set they come with side seals and all. When OEM seals wont make the cut thats the next choice in steal seals. Theres no wonder tricks out there I nor anyone else is going to have that magical engineering to out due Mazda there 50 years of research of an entire team with billions of dolors.
RE A sells factory comp steal apex seals its 900$ last time I checked for the set they come with side seals and all. When OEM seals wont make the cut thats the next choice in steal seals. Theres no wonder tricks out there I nor anyone else is going to have that magical engineering to out due Mazda there 50 years of research of an entire team with billions of dolors.
04-01-09, 10:34 PM
#61
Passing life by
Well accourding to RR seal test comparison the OEM seals failed misserably too, so so much for your OEM seals. I think the next set of seals for me is definitely ceramic seals, but then again I run N/A. If I were to have a turbo car, I would probably go with these ALS seals as they are a little turbo tunner noob friendly.
04-01-09, 10:46 PM
#62
Not really pay more attention to the information and usages the maximum egt for a stock seal is 1100 C. You can over push the basic OEM seals thats why Mazda FRT has the OEM RE A seals and then they switch over to Ceramics some are OE certified. Everything else really is just wasted effort IMO.
All I know is that if Sporty can run a 6.9 second pass with a 13b with NRS seals and use the same seals in his motor time and time again- I'm sold.
04-01-09, 10:49 PM
#63
And the rotary world is a much better place because of it. The 3piece seals may be great for compression but in high mileage conditions, they are complete junk. The thin top piece will easily snap like a tooth pick as they get brittle with age. Also the bottom piece will easily carbon lock leaving the top piece to float and bounce around in the rotor groove. If you ask me, the 3piece design was a huge mistake in Mazda's R&D. Old school 3mm seals in the 1st gen would easily last over 200k. If anything Mazda should have only come out with a piece 2mm for the 2nd and 3rd gens. Atleast the 2piece design has the advantage of having more metal to help it absorb the shock of detonation. R.I.P 3 piece. You will not be missed by yours truely.
04-01-09, 11:17 PM
#64
Passing life by
And the rotary world is a much better place because of it. The 3piece seals may be great for compression but in high mileage conditions, they are complete junk. The thin top piece will easily snap like a tooth pick as they get brittle with age. Also the bottom piece will easily carbon lock leaving the top piece to float and bounce around in the rotor groove. If you ask me, the 3piece design was a huge mistake in Mazda's R&D. Old school 3mm seals in the 1st gen would easily last over 200k. If anything Mazda should have only come out with a piece 2mm for the 2nd and 3rd gens. Atleast the 2piece design has the advantage of having more metal to help it absorb the shock of detonation. R.I.P 3 piece. You will not be missed by yours truely.
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 04-06-09 at 08:40 AM.
04-02-09, 01:18 AM
#65
All i can say from my personal experience is that the factory Mazda rotors and factory Mazda iron let loose before the seal did 
. IF i ever get to a point where the ALS fail i will get a set of NRS seals but that has not happened yet.
. IF i ever get to a point where the ALS fail i will get a set of NRS seals but that has not happened yet.
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 04-06-09 at 08:43 AM.
04-02-09, 01:33 AM
#66
I agree with you but what i consider durability and what you consider durability are two different things. I am working with very little knowledge of rotary so i am expecting to make mistakes. So far i have been the cause of two motors demise in the search for power. My idea of durability is a seal that can withstand detonation without shattering. Once i am at the point that you are and have to worry about long term durability then i will step back and reassess the situation and make the decision on what to use in my "good motor". As far as i am concerned these seals (for now) are cheap insurance. As for the wear, if i could get a seasons use out of them and they are easy on the housings then i will stick with them.
04-02-09, 08:25 AM
#67
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
'sort of off topic but there are a few other items that fall into the
lots of talk, lots of Opinions based on modest knowledge category:
i would nominate OIL to be close to number 1
with Coil-Overs, Tires and Porting to be near the top along w apex seals.
it is like waving a red cape at a bull.
hc
lots of talk, lots of Opinions based on modest knowledge category:
i would nominate OIL to be close to number 1
with Coil-Overs, Tires and Porting to be near the top along w apex seals.
it is like waving a red cape at a bull.
hc
04-02-09, 10:28 AM
#68
'sort of off topic but there are a few other items that fall into the
lots of talk, lots of Opinions based on modest knowledge category:
i would nominate OIL to be close to number 1
with Coil-Overs, Tires and Porting to be near the top along w apex seals.
it is like waving a red cape at a bull.
hc
lots of talk, lots of Opinions based on modest knowledge category:
i would nominate OIL to be close to number 1
with Coil-Overs, Tires and Porting to be near the top along w apex seals.
it is like waving a red cape at a bull.
hc
04-02-09, 10:48 AM
#69
Passing life by
There is hardly enough oil put into the chamber to cause any sort of cooling for the apex seal. Heck the fuel mixture would provide 100x more cooling effect then the oil. The oil is there for sealing purposes.
Sheesh I would figure you old people might know this by now.
Sheesh I would figure you old people might know this by now.
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 04-06-09 at 08:48 AM.
04-04-09, 01:18 AM
#70
Passing life by
eastcoastparts - Chilling with MFRT a couple years ago at SEMA learned allot from them guys. They had a set of aluminum rotors there. The things them guys do differently from the norm is just ridiculous it was a treat. They wouldn't sell the rotors they were for MFRT teams only thus I am very intrigued for a set. Being able to raise my RPM band to 12k+ will allow for some awesome new avenues of intake design and port work, much more room to add port volume or make my PP setup a far broader range motor. Getting suffichant volume out of the exhaust without creating to much overlapped timing and without bringing the stroke duration to short should be some interesting time on a flow bench.
Last edited by iceblue; 04-04-09 at 01:39 AM. Reason: Spelling
04-06-09, 09:18 AM
#72
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
perhaps you may have noticed that this thread is missing 48 posts...
a re-read will find that it is missing none of it's content.
there are two issues here. while we recognise (and welcome the fact) that there are always different opinions that does not mean that all threads end up thermonuclear. generally, when that happens, content disappears.
so we are talking apex seals here, something (engine tech) that this board needs more of IMO. have at it.
the other issue is commercial. the board exists because various companies pay vendor/advertising fees to gain customers. while non vendors are welcome to discuss the aspects of their products, unless they become vendors they are not allowed to solicit orders, provide links, or sell off of PMs.
obviously that wouldn't be fair to the paying vendors and as a result the board would lose it's sustaining income. (no board)
the various commercial entities that have posted here are welcome as long as they keep it between the lines. i would imagine the board would hope that they, by virtue of their product strength, would find it a worthwhile investment to become a vendor.
thanks to all who have remaining posts in this thread and i hope it continues to develop.
howard coleman
a re-read will find that it is missing none of it's content.
there are two issues here. while we recognise (and welcome the fact) that there are always different opinions that does not mean that all threads end up thermonuclear. generally, when that happens, content disappears.
so we are talking apex seals here, something (engine tech) that this board needs more of IMO. have at it.
the other issue is commercial. the board exists because various companies pay vendor/advertising fees to gain customers. while non vendors are welcome to discuss the aspects of their products, unless they become vendors they are not allowed to solicit orders, provide links, or sell off of PMs.
obviously that wouldn't be fair to the paying vendors and as a result the board would lose it's sustaining income. (no board)
the various commercial entities that have posted here are welcome as long as they keep it between the lines. i would imagine the board would hope that they, by virtue of their product strength, would find it a worthwhile investment to become a vendor.
thanks to all who have remaining posts in this thread and i hope it continues to develop.
howard coleman
