ALS apex seals
02-20-09, 10:01 PM
#27
I have built about 6-7 engines with these seals. Unfortunately they have all been engines I have shipped out and not ones I have personally installed. I have heard from a couple of my customers who installed the engines I have built for them and they didnt have any problems on first start up. However, I dont use extremely high mileage housings with a lot of wear.
Edgar says they have used some sets on some pretty beat up housings and they made pretty decent compression right away.
Edgar says they have used some sets on some pretty beat up housings and they made pretty decent compression right away.
03-25-09, 08:28 PM
#32
Passing life by
The harder the seal the more wear on the contacting surfaces and less efficient sealing becomes. Mazda designed the OEM seals to wear at or as close to as possible the rate of the housing components. This is why Mazda road race team and the top teams all still run OEM seals. Anything to improve on in attempts of a new seal is just like selling dead fish bait.
03-29-09, 09:47 AM
#35
^^^^^
and your $2000 turbo!
I have only pulled apart a few bad motors that were on oem seals but everyone of them had lots of damage fom the seals to the point parts were unusable. I can not confirm these ALS will not wear sideplates but this was the first question I asked Edger before I bought them. He said they will not. I know of one that pulled apart his motor with these seals in it after he had a BAD detenation that cracked the entire rearplate........ seals were all fine!
03-30-09, 01:37 AM
#36
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I think the reason the race teams are using the oem seals is because the probably do get the best sealing but.... they break fastas well know. the difference between us and them is they build 10 motors with these bastards in them and get great sealing and power and when they blow who cares throw in another high performing short living motor. the als seals may be a trade off but for a street car or those who cant rebuild all the time.
Maybe we should give them a shot and if the hold then maybe Apex seals wont be the weak link in the chain. maybe we could start working on a new coating for the rotor housings.
Maybe we should give them a shot and if the hold then maybe Apex seals wont be the weak link in the chain. maybe we could start working on a new coating for the rotor housings.
03-30-09, 11:55 AM
#37
Passing life by
I think the reason the race teams are using the oem seals is because the probably do get the best sealing but.... they break fastas well know. the difference between us and them is they build 10 motors with these bastards in them and get great sealing and power and when they blow who cares throw in another high performing short living motor. the als seals may be a trade off but for a street car or those who cant rebuild all the time.
Maybe we should give them a shot and if the hold then maybe Apex seals wont be the weak link in the chain. maybe we could start working on a new coating for the rotor housings.
Maybe we should give them a shot and if the hold then maybe Apex seals wont be the weak link in the chain. maybe we could start working on a new coating for the rotor housings.
I have the personal feeling Mazda has spent billions in RND over the years specifically on the apex seals themselves. This is including there proven racing performance and development. They stuck and chose on the current compound of the seals for a reason. The chances of one of us outdoing them in a small shop across the country or in a garage is slim to none.
03-30-09, 02:49 PM
#38
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you do have to keep in mind they arent looking for a completely unstopable seal. they want something that will give smooth operation, cost effective and lets not forget will break eventually. really a seal that lasts forever isnt good for business. sales for there new rotary vehicles would drop lower than it already has. If you think about it there is a reason that car companies quit making car like they did in the 60's and earlier its because if they last forever then no one will buy new cars or new parts. not trying to say anyone is wrong just throwing ideas out. I think the reason the mazda race teams use oem seals could also be they probably dont pay for them.
03-30-09, 03:29 PM
#40
Not sure why you would want to coat a seal that seems to not break. I am sure if you had a real shitty tune they "may" but so far they have proven to be the bang for the buck.
There are other threads on here that cover the ALS seals that if one is interested should search. Lots more info there... But then again the way mods delete things on here it could very well be gone..
There are other threads on here that cover the ALS seals that if one is interested should search. Lots more info there... But then again the way mods delete things on here it could very well be gone..
03-30-09, 04:56 PM
#42
I have the personal feeling Mazda has spent billions in RND over the years specifically on the apex seals themselves. This is including there proven racing performance and development. They stuck and chose on the current compound of the seals for a reason. The chances of one of us outdoing them in a small shop across the country or in a garage is slim to none.
Hell, I think it is well known the ceramic seals are much better than the OEM seals, so that throws out the slim to none comment.Mazda also couldnt get the aluminum rotors to last, looks like the same shop making these seals is on the edge of releasing their billet rotors to the public. Anyone thinking that mazda has it all right with this engine is crazy. While they do have probably millions of man hours invested, they are one company with one division devoted to this engine. If you go around believing what you have in front of you is the best possible, and stop looking to advance then this would be a boring and dull world. I have heard from several customers who have installed their engines I sold them with these seals and they fire right up on first crank and make excellent compression.
Time will only tell on the long term effect these have on the housings.
Im not saying the OEM seals arent great, Im not saying the ALS seals are better, just saying there is still a lot to learn about this engine and its capabilities.
03-30-09, 06:47 PM
#43
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well put I think we will never meet our thirst for power therefore we should always keep looking to something to hold this motor together as it grows more and more powerful. OEM seals arent bad but there is always something we can do to improve the motor we just havent figured out what that is yet.
03-31-09, 12:03 PM
#44
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...04#post9087304
Just another 800+rwhp rotary running these seals.
Just another 800+rwhp rotary running these seals.
03-31-09, 02:17 PM
#45
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Not sure why you would want to coat a seal that seems to not break. I am sure if you had a real shitty tune they "may" but so far they have proven to be the bang for the buck.
There are other threads on here that cover the ALS seals that if one is interested should search. Lots more info there... But then again the way mods delete things on here it could very well be gone..
There are other threads on here that cover the ALS seals that if one is interested should search. Lots more info there... But then again the way mods delete things on here it could very well be gone..
As mentioned, cryo-treating isn't a coating. Freeze them to like -350 then slowly bring them up to room temp. Half my FD is cryo'ed b/c I found a facility close to Gotham years ago who had a huge tub and offered cheap pricing.
You coming to DGRR this year, with FD instead of german machine?
03-31-09, 08:33 PM
#46
OEM seals suck for N/A motors that see extreme rpm's because they're heavy and chatter at high rpms. I don't think there are many, if any, drag racers running 7 seconds and below running OEM seals. Most are running ceramics or these unbreakable seals. There are other manufactures that make these " unbreakable" seals too.
03-31-09, 09:05 PM
#47
Als Seals
Not to compare the oem seal to als but they both seal about the same. We have customers with 125 to 130 psi of compression. If am not mistaken that is about the same for mazda. When Als was design it was with the intensions of creating a seal that would work just like factory but unbreakable. This we did. About the price, we want every one to be able to afford our parts not just the top racers.
Thank you
Edgar
Thank you
Edgar
03-31-09, 09:06 PM
#48
Passing life by
OEM seals suck for N/A motors that see extreme rpm's because they're heavy and chatter at high rpms. I don't think there are many, if any, drag racers running 7 seconds and below running OEM seals. Most are running ceramics or these unbreakable seals. There are other manufactures that make these " unbreakable" seals too.
03-31-09, 09:21 PM
#49
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not to redirect this thread but if these ALS seals are the unbreakable (reasonably speaking) what could we do to improve the housing coatings? could be we coat them with them same material these seals are made of to get them to wear at the same rate? or maybe a low friction material like ceramic but less brittle obviously.
03-31-09, 09:56 PM
#50
Passing life by
They are the only seal out there with proper testing done on them in terms of housing compatibility, long term wear, resonance and crowning. The testing Mazda does on seals is far beyond anyone’s.
As far as unbreakable and being the same correct wear characteristics well you can’t have best of both worlds now. RE amemiya is still using the old stock 3 piece in his gt car. Mazda seal is soft on the flanks while only hard on the face. Mazda seals vary in hardness to protect the rotor slot. Something only Mazda has been able to achieve in seal production. If you actually break a Mazda seal in half you can see how the metals vary across the seal to cause them to bend and crown in specific key areas. I would like to see what Hot compression numbers are after 5kmi with the ALS seals and see if there is any warpage after a little bit. Flip the seals upside and down and compare the grooving with OEM seals and the rotor grooves after usage. I would be interested in seeing how well the springs held up and if the seals toasted the springs or not.
Metallurgical problems are a top factor of why a shop would be unable to produce a seal that would meet the kind of criteria and consistency Mazda does. What another company is producing is near impossible to keep the consistency from seal to seal. RA and Atkins have proven this a thousand times. There is allot more to apex seals, springs, and sealing life than just milling lapping something hard into the correct size and putting it into the motor. If anyone remembers all the issues RA had then they came out with the new black seals it was anti wear coating and they do prove to last a couple extra miles but when that coating wears off it’s the same old seal with the same old problems. The issue is the metallurgical of the seal.
I was referencing RA seals because they are the "Harder" more "Unbreakable" seal type. Then we decided to go back to 3mm seals great idea the 3 mm seals will not put the same pressure on the surface past a given rpm causing them to float plus the added mass will create more housing wear and increased chatter. Attached is a picture of what housings will look like when the seals are too hard.
As far as unbreakable and being the same correct wear characteristics well you can’t have best of both worlds now. RE amemiya is still using the old stock 3 piece in his gt car. Mazda seal is soft on the flanks while only hard on the face. Mazda seals vary in hardness to protect the rotor slot. Something only Mazda has been able to achieve in seal production. If you actually break a Mazda seal in half you can see how the metals vary across the seal to cause them to bend and crown in specific key areas. I would like to see what Hot compression numbers are after 5kmi with the ALS seals and see if there is any warpage after a little bit. Flip the seals upside and down and compare the grooving with OEM seals and the rotor grooves after usage. I would be interested in seeing how well the springs held up and if the seals toasted the springs or not.
Metallurgical problems are a top factor of why a shop would be unable to produce a seal that would meet the kind of criteria and consistency Mazda does. What another company is producing is near impossible to keep the consistency from seal to seal. RA and Atkins have proven this a thousand times. There is allot more to apex seals, springs, and sealing life than just milling lapping something hard into the correct size and putting it into the motor. If anyone remembers all the issues RA had then they came out with the new black seals it was anti wear coating and they do prove to last a couple extra miles but when that coating wears off it’s the same old seal with the same old problems. The issue is the metallurgical of the seal.
I was referencing RA seals because they are the "Harder" more "Unbreakable" seal type. Then we decided to go back to 3mm seals great idea the 3 mm seals will not put the same pressure on the surface past a given rpm causing them to float plus the added mass will create more housing wear and increased chatter. Attached is a picture of what housings will look like when the seals are too hard.