D Walker

iTrader: (1)

As I posted in the Good Guy forum, I have been very happy with the parts and services provided by Goopy Performance in New York. This motor is being built for a customer and the car is intended to become a track car as time and money allow.
History of the engine as I understand it, although I could have bits wrong: Engine was assembled some time ago by a local fellow with the local "helping" . They used new housings and all rebuild parts came from Atkins, and I believe RA classic apex selas, although I could be wrong- good quality stuff, no junk. For some reason the front rotor never made the compression it should have. After 10K miles a compression test showed 60psi front, 110 rear, so it was obviously time for a rebuild.
On teardown the front housing showed odd carbon tracking and some scuffing, the rear housing looked fine but on cleanup a small depression was found near the exhaust port. The front iron was cracked and both the front iron and rotor housing had a couple of coolant passages virtually plugged with a very fine silty muck.The oil pump had some scoring internally, but the e-shaft and bearings were well within spec, as one would expect a 10K motor should be.

The irons and housings were sent out to be resurfaced. Goopy resurfaced the housings perfectly, they both look like new. When the front housing was resurfaced it was shown to have a slight warp to it. Since the housing was new on assembly, either it was warped from the factory (not unheard of) and wasnt caught, or it warped from overheating.
The cracked front iron might also have been pre-existing to the rebuild, as it was bought as a "good used" part, although the middle iron also had signs the front rotor had overheated at some point.
In any case the front iron was replaced, and the middle and rear irons resurfaced.

Goopy also provided the Apex seals (2MM), corner seals, corner seal springs, O-ring kit, and a new Mazda oil pump.
The engine has now been assembled using the parts, and I must say I really like the Apex seals so far. They probably look black in the pictures, but are actually coated with some grey substance, similar to a DFL or graphite coating. They superglued together fine, so I am not sure what it is. Jonathan assured me that it is not something that will just wear or rub off, and after seeing it I can believe it will last some time.

One thing that should be of interest to anyone building an engine with some miles or races with rotors where the apex seal slot is out of spec Are the Goopy oversized Apex seals. Where once a rotor with a worn slot the only choices were to either mill it to 3MM if it was 2MM or toss it if it was already 3MM and go buy a new or "good used" rotor or two. Well, now Goopy offers oversized 2MM and 3MM apex seals, so if you have a worn rotor that doesnt clearance right, you can go the next size up and save the rotor. Having now actually seen both the 2MM and 3MM oversized seals, all that can be said is really damned smart idea and no idea why it took this long for someone to do this!

Engine is going into the car in the next few days then I will give an update as to the initial compression, how the seals seem to break in, etc. I will also be uploading pictures of the seals both std and oversized.

peejay

Was it the coolant passages just above the intake port?

I can tell when an engine has had stop-leak in the coolant for a while, it seems to like to collect right there above the front rotor's secondary intake port.

Or maybe more specifically, on every engine that I've had to run stop-leak, that area was clogged with it. I'm assuming that it's just a dead area flow-wise and it settles out. I've noticed it in several other engines I've torn down, but not all of them.

As far as oversized seals goes... are the seals tapered or straight sided? I've never seen a worn out rotor that was worn straight, the groove is always V-shaped. Seems that once the clearance gets too high, the seal starts flapping around in there and really hammers the tips apart.

JWteknix

iTrader: (2)

im stuck between these and the RA superseals

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

you're correct in the thought of lack of flow across those areas, there is particularly 3 spots that don't see coolant flow which crap accumulates in and is normal, it doesn't mean that even an ounce of stop leak was used in the engines. stop leak usually looks like copper colored sand or thin fiberglass sheets once dried.

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

The oversized seals are straight. Jonathan recommends truing up the slot with a file carefully checking clearances as you go. They offer a "kit" that includes a 2 or 3mm file, a couple of brushes to clean the corner seal pockets, and a feeler gauge to check apex seal clearance.

There was silt in the top right (intake side) of the front iron, but also insome other passages of the front iron and rotor housing. The customer swears he never put anything but water in the engine, so its bit of a mystery how it got there.


If your on the fence about the RA vs these seals, let me add my experiences.
-I have several engines (Turbo) here with the RA seals and they do work, and we have not managed to break one. I also have noticed no abnormal wear or signs of chattering as others have. What I have noticed is a trend to wear faster than the Mazda seals. Now, obviously this can be caused by many things, including apex seal springs, rotor housing wear, premix or OMP operation, etc. that are fairly hard to sort out for certian. I now have my doubts about how long the RA seals will actually last. IMHO they are still a great choice for a budget track car build, as they are very durable, seem fairly tolerant of worn housings, and are priced right. Obviously, I would not use these seals for someone who was uncomfortable with the idea they may have to replace apex seals due to wear or compression loss before the motor "blows".

I chose the Goopy seals because many very high powered cars are using them and they seem to be lasting season after season. I originally went to Goopy because I wanted my housings surfaced (which exceeded my expectations) and then started checking around regarding the seals. What I am gathering is that they are as "strong" or stronger than the RA, ALS, Hurley, etc. but are wearing better and producing very good compression numbers right after startup. The price is just right as well.

I think the one thing a lot of guys are forgetting is that the OEM seals will easily last 150K miles or more. Most aftermarket seals will likely not. The trade-off is that extra margin of safety the aftermarket seals like Goopy's provides when you are modifying and pushing the engine. As long as you understand you may or may not be tearing the engine back apart after 30K miles, everything is fine

peejay

All water = no antifreeze? Might be rust particles. Internal corrosion can happen with shocking rapidity, as I discovered last year. (I corroded the aluminum right out from under the coolant seals after three months!)

Interesting on the seals. Personally, I'm fine with 50-60k of life from apex seals, as long as they don't trash the housings. I've pulled 160k mile FC engines apart where the rotor housings still looked pretty good. 60k with Atkins seals left a set of rotor housings pretty heavily grooved and I'm not sure I'd want to use them ever again, at least not "seriously". I'll probably try a set of Hurleys on them for ***** and giggles, they're certainly cheap enough nowadays.

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

I should clarify- just water and antifreeze, and according to the owner the irons were good used and cleaned and the rotor housings were new. The fellow who built the engine originally has a reputation for being thorough, so I am hesitant to think the silt came from deposit left from poor cleaning. Wherever it came from, I cannot prove it caused a localized overheating of the front iron, so we are left with a fair number of unknowns as to why the last engine failed so early.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

silt is normal... in even less than a years time.

the internals will break down over time, there is nothing you can do to fully prevent it which is where the debris comes from and turns to "jello" as it sits and isn't part of the flow path of the cooling system. the spot just above the intake port is notorious for collecting this crap.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

please be sure to post updates when the engine is in and running. i've been hearing nothing but good things about Goopy Performance and it would be nice to follow a Goopy engine from the beginning to wherever and see what time has to say about it. i am always excited to see advancements in rotary engine parts and services. thanks for posting.
i think this is a pretty neat idea.

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

The engine is in the car, but we have been going through the Haltec harness with a fine tooth comb after finding some minor issues. Will update as soon as possible.

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

Enough of the electrical demons in this car have been exorcised and the car started first crank over this morning. As normal, the grand smell and white smoke of vaseline, oil, and assembly lube filled the air and the car settled into an idle. Oil pressure at 90psi. Shut the car off, checked for leaks etc.
Restarted the car, allowed to warm to 180deg. Oil pressure still at 90psi. Car idles OK but needs some minor tweeking.
Pulled plugs and performed compression test using Erics (one of my techs) "standard" tester. 90psi both rotors. Yes, thats right, 90psi after maybe 30 minutes of running total. At 5280 ft elevation. I really like these seals.

Cheers.

scathcart

Good deal.

I like using scented baby vaseline, or throwing some manhatten oil in the fuel for when I smoke out the shop after a rebuild.

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

I should clarify that the Oil Pressure is about 50 psi at idle and 85-90 at much over that. Oil obviously was still "cold". I check oil pressure with a 2 and 5/8th inch Autometer mechanical gauge as I do not trust the OEM ones much at all.
In the interest of full disclosure I will add that there is a minor coolant leak from the intake manifold or one of the blocked off coolant nipples on that side of the engine, will look into it tomorrow.
This engine also has the OMP modified for external feed and I need to set up the Haltech PS1K for it tomorrow as well. The current basemap in the car is OK but we will see how far off it really is. There is no TPS on it so it doesnt quite rev like I would expect, but the owner is bringing it around in the next few days so we can refit it and see if that helps response and low-end running.