Snrub

iTrader: (1)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20050...ftwood_dispute

I don't know if you guys have been following the news lately, but last week yet another NAFTA pannel ruling went in Canada's favour regarding softwood lumber.

My Dad and I have been discussing the merits of an oil export duty to stop the Americans from what is obviously unfair. Layton is now suggesting it as the way to go.

Pros:
1. The US is not listening to us. They don't seem to realize that they need us for a certain things. An oil/gas export duty wouldn't hurt Canadian oil/gas interests because where else are they going to get it from? It would make headlines and force them to act.

2. The Canadian gov't never sticks up for anyone, it would be nice for a precedent to be set.

Cons:
1. They're not reasonable or able to see the issue fairly. If they punched us and we punched back, they'd ask "What did you do that for?!?"

2. Politically risky. We have a poor relationship with the republican leadership in the US, this would likely make it worse than if they're allowed to smile with their hands up our asses. There could be a Canadian backlash as well.

3. Albertans would probably get upset that the lifeblood of their province was being used in a trade war.

Thoughts, comments?

RacerJason

iTrader: (5)

I say do it. A lot of people don't realize that we are the number one world exporter to the U.S. of oil.

That or the government could give us a break for once and drop the one tax on fuel (believe it's 6 cents of the total price) that was applied to pay down the defecit which was accomplished no? Canadian's take it in the a$$ and don't get our backs up about anything. If Texas announced they we're implementing a new 5% tax across the board there would be gunfire in the streets. Here there is gunfire but only because city of Toronto is going downhill at a pace that outmeasures the moral decline of a few metropolitan US cities. Sorry, tangent there lol Back on topic.

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

I say.. . DO IT! and stop shafting us while you're there...

Maxthe7man

Hmm, tones of NEP...But the circumstances and the purpose of the program would be different...
Ralphy boy thinks that using energy as US leverage will affect Alberta's current boom situation negatively... So he has stated its a non starter..
I disagree, though, for the reason the current climate of energy use dictates that its not just a US energy shortage pumping the dollars, its a global shortage..... Plenty of other countries are willing to still pay top dollar for oil, because they have to..
The US can not currently do anything about its energy shortfalls, cutting it off or tarrifing the exports would be the hammer that would straighten the trade disputes, or get us invaded, one of the two....
But the current climate puts us with a full house against hand that is so bad, we couldnt have dealt it any better ourselves..The problem is none our politicians have the cajones or the right poker face to play this one in Canada's best future interests..
It bother me that Ralph Klein stated that retaliatory tactics have no place in Canada/US relations, maybe he thinks Mad cow and softwood disputes are just Natural occurences..Max

edv

And Dick Cheney is coming up to the tarsands for a little visit next month.
A large welcoming committee is being formed to protest.

Maybe he wants to see if he can nuke Alberta without setting the tarsands on fire....

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

I agree with Ralf, that retaliatory tactics have no place in Canada/US relations, but neither does unlawfull behaviour. Unfortunately the Americans just don't get it. They're basically using mobster tactics to keep Canadians from selling their products. We can't call the police on them so unfortunately we may need to sink to their level.

I wonder if we couldn't just posture regarding slapping a terrif on oil, gas and electricity. That's an issue that the US media would be all over. Imagine McKenna doing the rounds on the Sunday morning talk shows stating the softwood case, the fact that the US is violating NAFTA and that Americans are going to start paying more at the pumps. The other facet of NAFTA is that we are never allowed to decrease the amount of oil we sell to the US. In other words if we up sales from 10 to 12 barrels, we can not ever sell them less than 12! Perhaps it would be enough to state that since the US has made NAFTA null and void we no longer plan on honouring this part of NAFTA and we look forward to making some long term contracts with China. Bush recently pushed hard to get a central american free trade agreement as law. That probably would have been the time to lean on them (granted the republicans would have been seriously pissed).

The thing is that Americans are stealing from other Americans as well. Look at the Mad Cow situation. It forced us to increase our packing capacity. I knew that we wouldn't need to send as much live cattle to the US, but I have been shocked at the complete lack of cattle trade since the boarder has opened. A whole bunch of American meat packers lost a lot of money and a bunch of people lost their jobs. At the moment there is a home building boom in the US and consumers, builders and retailers like Home depot are paying too much for wood.

rick_tj

Heck yes. Its about time we actually stand up and support this hole.

SophiaCDN

I was just thinking the other day about the UN and all, and wondering why the hell not impose trade sanctions on the US or something every time they disobey international law? They are ONLY 200 million people! They only reason they have so much power, is because we let them have it... They need to be put into their place.

We screwed ourselves nicely with NAFTA, sold ourselves out. We should start disobeying it too, and then maybe it will disappear....

“We have free trade as long as the Americans are happy with it.”
- Tory MP Bill Casey

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

NAFTA has been a boon for Canadian businesses and our economy. Easy evidence: Notice the increase in truck traffic along the 401 from 15 years ago? It's up like 10x. There's no reason to get rid of NAFTA. If anything the Americans got the short end of the deal in general, but that doesn't give them the right to disobey it.

Prophetic words by Casey!

doridori-rx7

iTrader: (3)

maybe These Canaidan industries should be dpoing what any normal growth market industry does and create trade deals elsewhere.. the Japanese pay top dollar for quality wood. The russians are always looking for more food sources.. ALL the pacific rim is looking for more sources for oil.. IT's pretty sad when Austrialian beef is cheaper in the store then Canadian beef.. something is VERY wrong. Same can be said about lumber, I was down in Ohio last weekend and the prices for lumber had me floored.. it's less then 1/2 what we pay up here.. and it's labled with a Canadian mill stamp!

Canada shoots it's self in the foot by being complacent and frankly lazy when it comes to economic growth..

rx7racerca

iTrader: (1)

Some responses to various comments in the thread:
1. I agree NAFTA has been a boon for Canada - free and fair trade lets us grow our economy and markets by doing what we do well, and forcing us to become competitive or get out of industries we're not as effective in.
That said, the Americans are not, nor have they ever been interested in free enterprise or fair trade - their jingoistic nationalism means collectively and through their gov't they want a table that's always tilted in their favour. And they have long been prepared to use their military might to make right in absence of a legal or moral leg to stand on.

2. Canada imposing export taxes on oil and gas would not be a "retaliatory measure" in the sense of being a punishment or us striking out - it is a legal means provided for under NAFTA and WTO agreements for recouping unfair and illegal duties - and both NAFTA, and I believe the WTO, have backed Canada's position on US softwood lumber duties. As such, we could count on backing in the international community. It would be wise however to cultivate that support in advance of imposing export duties. For example, in Britain, where Blair's gov't has lost a lot of voter support for appearing to be stooges for the Americans in Iraq, support for Canada against the US's unfair position could play very well.

3. Regardless of whether Ralphie and Alberta (meaning the largely American-owned oil companies, for which the Alberta gov't is a mouthpiece) say this is like the NEP, it would not be. The NEP was all about forcing a lower price on Canadain oil producers than world prices, for oil sold in Canada, while limiting exports. While it could be argued that a export tax would lower American demand, hence hurting Canadian producers, I don't believe this is so, simply because the US is already facing a shortage of both oil and, particularly, natural gas. We have them over a barrel, to be punny Especially with natural gas, where like Alberta and Ontario, a lot of the new electrical generating capacity in the US in the last couple of decades has been gas-fired plants. Natural gas prices have skyrocketed moreso than oil the last few years because demand and dependence have grown immensely - the alternative to paying the price we name is rolling blackouts and shutting down industries. Not going to happen. And with that in mind, I would suggest to place by far the heaviest duties on the export of natural gas, priced so as to recoup the $5+ billion the Americans have picked from Canadian pockets within a year. Unlike oil, they can't import it in any quantities from other sources.

4. Speaking of not going to happen - the US won't invade us to take our resources. While our military is sadly neglected and incapable of mounting an effective defence, the US has its hands full with an increasingly unpopular war for oil in Iraq. The US has about burned up it's international support with said war. Plus even Americans would have a hard time rallying around an invasion of a neighbouring democratic ally.

5. Also not going to happen - Prime Minister Dithers is not about to make a decisive stand for Canada against the American bully tactics - despite the strong current of anti-Americanism that runs through his own party and their political bed-buddies the NDP. Although doing so would very likely find strong support amongst most Canadians, even in Alberta. It is a distinguishing characteristic of Canadians that we place a very high value on fair play and fair outcomes. But while our government seems to have no problem antagonizing the US in small and stupid ways, I don't see the strength and conviction in our current leaders to make a strong stand.

rx7racerca

iTrader: (1)

Have you tried Australian beef? There's a reason it's cheap. I did, once. It was so awful, even the dog wouldn't eat it!

Maxthe7man

I ate Australian beef pretty much everyday for a month while I was staying in Japan.. I was actually pretty shocked how good it was, to me, it was better than Canadian beef.. We cooked a couple of roasts which were superb, and the steaks were perfect with about half the fat of Canadian meat.. I was hooked...

You are only off by about 95 million or so... But I agree, we basically play around our general inferiority complex with them and let them take take take, so scared that we lose on anything, but in the end we lose on everything... Thats same reason Canada tends to have that moral smugness when it comes to other world matters, its the only thing we have left that we can control, its to bad the only export we have we still have total rights to is idiocy such as that..IE Carolyn Parrish....Max

Feds

You know, they have medication you can take to solve your softwood problems.

Hy-ooo!