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Taking the sway bar off and on without also adjusting the spring rates isn't really a fair comparison. If your front springs are really stiff, of course the sway bar is going to wreak havoc. The idea is to get that same rate you have now, but as a combination of both spring and bar, which allows you to have softer springs, which allows more weight transfer, which allows you to move the grip from front to rear when you need it.
I understand the soft spring/large ARB vs. heavy spring/small ARB argument, but I'm against both cases in the fact that it makes an otherwise independent suspension now laterally linked. Any effects on one corner will effect the other, and that's not chasing maximum grip.
Different strokes for different folks, eyy? I solve the same issues of softer spring rates with roll center and better geometry to begin with, not a band-aid to body motion.
On my FWD, I prefer a large ARB in the rear and zero ARB front. But FWD = Chariot Rear Wheels.
my biggest issue with sway bars is they increase the likely hood of something binding by approximately a million percent... which sucks.
They're redundant and heavy and don't actually add much spring rate at all, most setups I see have bars contributing maybe 100-150 lbs/in? and springs in the 600+ lbs/in range... that seems silly.
I haven't been running sway bars for years a like it a lot.
It's also my experience that with sub-optimal suspension design (ie any street car) you pretty much want to limit the suspension from doing much of anything... so it doesn't do anything stupid.
This brings up a point I've been pondering for a while... stiff springs and braking performance. Sure less weight transferred forward means the front tires can't brake as much and might lock. but this can be fixed by just moving more brake force to the back (which is now not as light). This is how my car is currently setup and I think it brakes pretty decently (I have a willwood prop valve cranked all the way to the rear). is there something I'm missing here? do you still have less overall braking ability after transferring more brake rearward?
PS. keep up the thread, I'm enjoying it a lot. This forum needs more build threads like this that aren't just "I ordered everything and bolted it on and now I have a clone of everyone else' car"
This forum has very few of these types of builds. I might be an arrogant *******, but at least I justify it with hard work to pay for my cool ****. Think about this for a second... Last year I made $100-200 a weekend working at a local bar, full time engineering school, automotive tuning and design on the side. Rent for a studio in this area is $2500/month, or $1500+ for a room in a house.
My intercooler is $700. Radiator is $300, Fabrication in this area is anywhere from $120-250/hr, etc. I work my ******* *** off to build my dreams.
Anyways, I know what you mean about the brake balance and such. The Integra's upper control arms have more anti-dive than factory (actually, the opposite effect of what I would have wanted, but everything else has greatly improved, so I'm not going to tear it all down and redesign in the middle of the semester, the car is stupid fast as is), and with new Raybestos ST43 pads for dual purpose canyon running and commuting, the car brakes SO hard, driving anything else seems unsafe.
Swaybars were calculated to bend the frame of the FC Rx7 so much in one SAE article (it's on this forum somewhere), that grip levels were PROVEN to be less as chassis deflection increased. Now, the FC is +15% more rigid than this FB from the get-go, and it's not a bad chassis...let that sink in. A factory car rolls, and a dumped one flops all over the place, regardless of spring rate. It's ******* roll centers guys... Stop thinking like Herb Adams.
Ended up finding what I was looking for between homework assignments last night. NiCopp Brake Lines w/ Black Oxide M10x1.0 fittings. I'll do the whole car in 3/16". A bit of bling, but it's necessary for safety on a 30yr old car.
My hydraulics, largest vacuum lines, and a few other misc parts are all kevlar lines, so why the hell not, right?
There has been so much development progress today, I'm afraid to share it all. I'm breaking new grounds with this build and even one of my buddies, a world renowned rotary tuner, was taken by surprise and got behind me 100% on this new methodology of the build. It's everything the build had set out to do, AND MORE!
So, what will I share with you all? My fueling strategy, which ends up being a key component that people seem to forget when doing things to this caliber of design.
First off, I've decided that nothing in the motorsports world will work for this except for the Injector Dynamics ID2000s. It can handle incredibly small pulse widths and has a HUGE range of running pressure. Many of you might recall that I'll be running a 670lph Injector Dynamics fuel pump once it's released, so it only makes sense to use everything else from them. So, let's dig into it, shall we?
The car is FLEX FUEL, in which I'll run 91 Octane and e85, with a mix of each if I find myself without an e85 station or prefer to get the better fuel economy of the 91 octane for long distance road trips (vs. e85 for hard mountain driving). The GM Gen 2 sensor is a Hydroscopic Sensor in which it measures capacitance of the fluid traveling through it. As such, MOST people who install these forget the fact that while 91 octane and water do not mix, ethanol and water DO. As such, water in the e85 will completely skew the actual readings of ethanol content, and a WATER SEPARATOR/FILTER must be used. My filter is 3 micron and has a huge element for collecting and separating water. Water, by itself, passing through this same sensor will show an ethanol content of 100%. Don't be an idiot, run a water filter with e85...
Next, we know that ~+33% fuel is necessary for e85 due to its stoichiometry and less energy density. What that means is that under high loads and higher rpms, I need MUCH more fuel than I would with 91 octane. How the heck am I going to get that to work? Bigger injectors, right? Well, at some point, those huge injectors won't be controllable at such short pulse widths on 91 octane...****.
Here's where my ingenuity comes out... While I intend on running a wastegate duty cycle based on ethanol content, I also intend on running a fuel pressure based on ethanol content as well. Again, that water separator is becoming VERY important since the flex fuel sensor going astray is going to completely change the characteristics of the motor's output. Here's how I decided it should go: On pure 91 octane, the base fuel pressure will be at 43.5psi (3 Bar) in which the car will be happy to idle and at higher rpm, it'll have PLENTY of mass flow. On pure e85, the base fuel pressure will be in the ballpark of 70psi (yes, this amazing pump can handle that), in which idle is still very reasonable (remember how it needs +33% fuel everywhere?), and at high rpm, high load, this fuel pressure delivers +25% mass flow rate vs. the 43.5psi. A curve fit will be used at various points of testing to identify what is necessary for idle and maximum power at various ethanol contents.
91 Octane Maximum Mass Flow Rate = 8900 cc/min
e85 Maximum Mass Flow Rate = 11120 cc/min
Can't tell you what I've decided to do yet...but it's a big change. Game changer... Like wipe the floor with my old employer, kiss my ***, I have orders for 3 more cars already kinda deal. However, for now, I'll hold my tongue and enjoy this build as something personal. An engineering design project, and something to ground myself to when times are tough.
First off, I've decided that nothing in the motorsports world will work for this except for the Injector Dynamics ID2000s. It can handle incredibly small pulse widths and has a HUGE range of running pressure. Many of you might recall that I'll be running a 670lph Injector Dynamics fuel pump once it's released, so it only makes sense to use everything else from them. So, let's dig into it, shall we?
The car is FLEX FUEL, in which I'll run 91 Octane and e85, with a mix of each if I find myself without an e85 station or prefer to get the better fuel economy of the 91 octane for long distance road trips (vs. e85 for hard mountain driving). The GM Gen 2 sensor is a Hydroscopic Sensor in which it measures capacitance of the fluid traveling through it. As such, MOST people who install these forget the fact that while 91 octane and water do not mix, ethanol and water DO. As such, water in the e85 will completely skew the actual readings of ethanol content, and a WATER SEPARATOR/FILTER must be used. My filter is 3 micron and has a huge element for collecting and separating water. Water, by itself, passing through this same sensor will show an ethanol content of 100%. Don't be an idiot, run a water filter with e85...
Wait Wait Wait!
I thought ID2000's weren't designed for or suitable for use with E85!?
Originally Posted by SirLaughsALot
I don't mind if you copy my setup with fuel filtration, and with e85, water filtration is pretty important too.
The ID1700s are made for this. 1000s and 2000s are amazing injectors, but you're asking a lot from them with a fuel they aren't specifically designed for.
I don't know about having base fuel pressure vary based on fuel content. I've found that with tuning you need to have as few variables as possible so as to be able to accurately track and predict what changes need to be made to achieve your target and variable fuel pressure on an ECU that is tuned in VE where fuel pressure, injector sizes, and ethanol content are what the ECU uses to calculate flow, just seems like too much. I mean if you can do it and it work, more power to ya.
I just feel like it would result in a complicated where-the-hell-is-this-trim-coming-from hunt. It used to bug me to no end when I would see a section in my log where I was using closed loop fueling and rich from my target AFR and the ECU was actually addiding additional fuel or even worse when I was lean from my target and the ECU is actually trimming additional fuel. While I do understand that the PID controller can cause the trim to overshoot the target when correcting over a large range, it wasn't the only cause. Having too many active variables affecting fueling will make it extremely difficult to tune for a target even in a fixed condition such as a dyno.
I would like to know how you are planning to do this in the tuning software.
I'm going to request a special batch of ID2000s with all stainless internals, bahahahaha. Paul is a friend, and he'll charge me accordingly or tell me to **** off.
BLUETII and I were discussing how valuable consistency is for driving too...so yea, I'll figure something out. Either way, 4xID2000s at 8900cc/min isn't enough for e85 and a larger turbo, and 11200cc/min is too much in the lower rpms/lower loads on 91 octane.
Really appreciate your input Skeese, as always. You've got a GOOD head on your shoulders bud, and your opinions matter.
Looks awesome, are the holes you cut out for the links to pass through big enough, they look like they will limit the amount of travel the links will have.
Looks awesome, are the holes you cut out for the links to pass through big enough, they look like they will limit the amount of travel the links will have.
We'll be cycling the suspension fully with everything installed, but because the links are so long, their angle doesn't change drastically.
Good. I just finished putting the interior back in,all i have left is put the front bumper, and hood on.i should be taking it for its first drive this weekend
Good. I just finished putting the interior back in,all i have left is put the front bumper, and hood on.i should be taking it for its first drive this weekend
Ahh, that's so exciting! Make sure you video it and send it my way! Can't wait to see how she does.
I'm still WAY deep into the fabrication phase and decided to spend extra money in places to make things really nice for service. Push-Lok systems on oil and fuel, Justin Linder's intercooler piping flanges might come into play, and omg...the new turbo proposal is out of this world. Completely redefines the car.
Won't get into that just yet. I want to buy it and test fit everything first to make sure I can make some of these fantasies come to life. Suffice it to say, this will be the most overbuilt 1st Gen in the US...zero sponsors, just a dude making his dream car.
Man, I've been watching this thread in awe at the science and engineering you're throwing into this build. It's gonna be one hell of a machine when you're done and I can't wait to see the results.
Man, I've been watching this thread in awe at the science and engineering you're throwing into this build. It's gonna be one hell of a machine when you're done and I can't wait to see the results.
I really appreciate the kind words. Thought I was going at this alone all along and wondering why someone buying eBay bolt on stuff was getting dozens of comments.
There are a few more very big updates that I'll be holding back until we see a little more progress in the Fabrication phase, but stay tuned, trust me, it'll be worth the wait.
As for the 9174 Tuning Process, it's going to be wastegate pressure on 91 octane for safety and upwards of 20psi on e85. I think that modeling the wastegate duty cycle to ethanol content sensor is still the way to go so I'm always making the right amount of power for my fueling, as inconsistent as it may be (when blended). I'm looking into more water separation control of the e85 and further down the line, I might opt for a larger fuel tank (or modifying the OEM one to gain a bigger range).
Next project once I finish up the Daily Driver engine swap (h23a Vtec into a 94 Integra churning out about 210whp/175wtq), I'll focus on designing a driveshaft that's happy at 9k rpms and 600whp. I do have a larger turbo and streetport after all. Power should come on just like this for pump gas:
Note: +200-300 RPM later to reach full boost and pull hard to 8-8.5k instead of dropping off at 6.7k
Last edited by RGHTBrainDesign; 11-05-16 at 06:47 PM.
COol stuff, hope you are putting those upper link mounts in double shear on the chassis. That turbo is really gonna wake things up!
Yep. It'll all be boxed and done up properly. I'll probably head over there soon and take another video for YouTube. Selling my OEM 4-link and Watt's link to Tim and my turbo setup to a buddy in the bay area.
Making the chassis feel right at 600whp is going to be tricky, but we have all the right parts...just need to tie it all together now. The whole rear end is absolutely overbuilt, and on 225s I'll be WELL under tired.
I may have mentioned it already but i wish i had your know how and fabrications skills.
If it makes you feel any better, my thread will never match yours in views.
Books are cheaper than doing **** twice. Most books on this stuff are total garbage, but necessary to get your foot in the door. From there, you advance into proper engineering stuff, but it all comes down to your level of commitment, and that goes for ANYTHING in life.
We have the internet, the most powerful tool ever created, and watch cats on YouTube...
If it makes you feel any better, my thread will never match yours in views.
Books are cheaper than doing **** twice. Most books on this stuff are total garbage, but necessary to get your foot in the door. From there, you advance into proper engineering stuff, but it all comes down to your level of commitment, and that goes for ANYTHING in life.
We have the internet, the most powerful tool ever created, and watch cats on YouTube...
I also started my thread over 4 years ago! Lol
Yep, the internet has so much information...but we need to be able to weed out good versus bad info. Also doesn't hurt to have the right people around you with knowledge they can pass down. Since I'm not in the auto industry, this makes it a bit harder. That's why I'm thankful for this site.
You know, I don't talk about this much, but Craaaaazy reminded me of something I think is important to say...
I'm sure as hell not a smart guy, but I work VERY hard for things. Commitment issues? Maybe if I'm OVERLY committed.
My company, based in Automotive Design has been Grassroots since I started it. I go to college full time for Mechanical/Aerospace/Environmental Engineering and Industrial Design. Every weekend I've spent working in the Service Industry making every last dime (sometimes only $100 a day, two days a week) I can to fund my dreams.
I have friends who hustle so hard, they make me look like I'm standing still. It's the hunger that matters, but also appreciating what you have and where you've come from. I grew up with a lot (middle class was nice!), during my teenage years became low-income, and just within the last two years, have fought to improve my standards of living by pulling 18-20hr days, every day. It's the reason I'm on here...trying to give back to a community that's taught me so much.
This build grounds me.
Last edited by RGHTBrainDesign; 11-13-16 at 05:34 PM.
10-12-16, 08:38 PM
