GtoRx7.

iTrader: (12)

350 flywheel is exceptional, and even better using a bridgeport.

I wish, the news isn't THAT good lol.


Thanks a bunch McCarthy! That is my main reason for doing it all. To make the rotary back into a competitive race engine and help the community as I learn

Rxmfn7

iTrader: (4)

So, being bored and off work for the holiday weekend.. I realized how mad I am at you for not having any high quality videos of this thing in action. I think you need to hire a "public relations" manager for your shop, and have them put out some good footage for all of us Also,I know its not setup for drag racing at all, but id love to see what this would trap in the 1/4.

I guess its not just you though. You can type in supra, viper, or corvette into youtube and watch some pretty cool videos for hours. You type in Rx7 and get some retards drifting and maybe a burnout or two..

FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

We think about our lack of media advertising quite a bit. Only being Logan and I making everything happen, makes the time aspect for media advertisement hard. We tried hiring a couple of people in the past to make videos for us. Those experiences were pretty disappointing.

We did finally get a go-pro this winter, so there should be plenty of good track videos when winter breaks. Logan and I finally decided to leave the cars in one piece over a winter so spring will be awesome for good footage, and really showcase what kind of cars we build.

Rxmfn7

iTrader: (4)

Well I promise that once my car is complete, some good videos of it in action will be my contribution to the rotary community

GtoRx7.

iTrader: (12)

Definitely looking forward to it. I am really hoping by deals gap to have a pretty strong fleet of naturally aspirated Rx7's in the hands of customers. (You being one of them of course lol)

RCCAZ 1

iTrader: (10)

So Logan, is the 4 rotor running in your FD yet, or are you just keeping things totally under wraps until you get final "test and tune" results?

GtoRx7.

iTrader: (12)

Not running yet, shooting for roughly 2 months on fireup. Typically I wouldnt make a thread until it makes some power, but going to make an exception this time. Will start posting photos etc in the next couple weeks.

Rxmfn7

iTrader: (4)

If your 4 rotor runs before my 3 rotor runs Im pooping in your intake manifold

In all seriousness though, I am looking forward to seeing what the 4 rotor can do. In hindsight, when its all said and done Im wondering if that would have been the way to go vs my 3 rotor. It doesn't even seem like it would have been all that more costly, being you first have to source a 3 rotor (~4k we'll say), and then even at that its in unknown condition and it needs completely torn down, inspected and rebuild. And what seriously scares me is if it were to ever fail and the intermediate plate is ruined, good luck finding one of them. If you were to just take that initial investment and buy a 4 rotor shaft, going P-Port aside from bearings and machine work you can use normal 13B stuff for the whole thing.

Even if one didnt want a 4-rotor, what do you think about the "short crank" P-Port 3 rotor, cost wise vs the traditional route?

GtoRx7.

iTrader: (12)

Pooping in my intake.... I feel the Love Lenny! Haha

On a quick thought process the 4-rotor doesnt seem a lot more than 20b, but its a 75k proposition on the low side. Add to that I'm not a fan of the swap without moving the firewall, as the extra length is just too much to pack in otherwise. I wouldnt worry about the fat iron on a n/a 20b that is for sure. We are looking into building short crank 20b's to fill the lack of OEM stuff. Only bad thing is they have to be full p-port which isnt very streetable typically. Its about $3k more vs. Mazda 20b once both are rebuilt/ported/custom intakes etc.

RCCAZ 1

iTrader: (10)

Guys, without divulging too much of your shop pricing info, lead me through the cost breakdown as to how you get to $75 to $80K for a turbocharged 3 rotor or 4 rotor NA. 4 rotor eshaft is 10-12K from New Zealand, then engine parts, machine work, custom intake and throttle body... let's say 15 to 20K, that puts us at about $30 to $32K. Then your cradle fab and firewall mods (let's say another 5 to $7K, so we're at $39K), then ignition and fuel system ($2K max, leaves us around just North of $40K) plus the initial cost of the car. $160K is absolute RAPE, but based on who did the work, I'm not surprised.

I know that a few on this forum have spent North of $100K, but I always assumed that there was $20 to $30K of waste in their projects due to "rework" and "learning" as the project progressed. Wouldn't it make sense that a fair amount of the "learning" cost and scope creep could be controlled through a clear definition of the project and goals prior to starting work?

Not trying to be difficult. Just trying to understand. Please fill me in on the "general" cost breakdown.

Thx

Edit: Any idea how much power potential (N/A) might be in the short crank 20Bs? Thx!

mefarri

iTrader: (2)

Anyone who'd spend 40k for a 20b single turbo is out of their mind as well. That's absolutely ridiculous. You could have a 1500hp LS series engine setup in there with enough money left over to buy another FD to light on fire.

Rxmfn7

iTrader: (4)

Not disagreeing with you that in price per HP, a 3 / 4 rotor swap doesn't make sense. But as with anything else, sometimes it not all about that. Why do some guys pay $15-20K for old 426 Hemis, when you can buy a modern LSx engine and get the same power/less weight for 1/4 or less of that price? Why do people still pay $40k-60k + for an old NSX when they are outperformed by some family sedans now a days? Its mostly an emotional decision, and doing what makes you happy. I myself, for example.. had an entire swap kit for my FD before I divulged into the 3-rotor. I had everything I needed, just needed to bolt it in. Then I got a ride in some LS swapped cars, and honestly it just didnt "do it" for me. For me, for happy long term car ownership the car needs to feel special, and for me that involves having a special engine. I cant quantify what that term means exactly, as I felt my S2000s engine was special even though it wasn't a power monster by far. Some may feel an LSx feels special to them, its all relative.
Im not trying to defend my, or anyone elses decision.. just trying to maybe give some insight onto the "why" question. I would never really try to talk anyone out of an LSx swap, as it makes sense in alot of ways. But, will it make you happy? For some yes, for others no. So then you need to ask what will make you happy, and how much are you willing to spend for that. I personally think this is why you see alot of very nice and well put together LS swapped cars for sale shortly after being completed. Sometimes just being fast isn't enough.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Only bad thing is they have to be full p-port which isnt very streetable typically.

I was thinking for a short crank 3 or 4 rotor you could mill out the rear and front housings ports and push inserts in so the runners, bowl and ports are all identical and then do a little semi p-port to bring the power back in.

Grant M

How dare you! That is blaspheme! Lol. The 787B was voted the best sounding car ever BTW.

If people want a short crank 3 rotor but not a PP then surely getting the aluminium side plates from racing beat and machine out the side ports to equal size? Yes it will be costly but in the scheme of things people building motors such as these won't be bothered too much about a few thousand extra.

As to why would anybody would spend 80k on a 4 rotor when they can have a 1500 HP LSX motor, it's a simple answer, because they can

RCCAZ 1

iTrader: (10)

For 4 rotors to become more affordable, someone will need to develop a lower cost e-shaft solution. Anyone know a camshaft manufacturer who might turn a few hundred shafts for us?

mefarri

iTrader: (2)

Yea I get the emotional aspect of engine choice for sure. That definitely plays.

What I think is funny is how most rotary freaks go nuts with the idea that the LS swap adds weight (it doesn't) but then would cut off their arm for a 3 or 4 rotor which does weigh a lot more, makes less power and is far less reliable . Just funny how that gets overlooked.

Rxmfn7

iTrader: (4)

I think car ownership in general, no matter when platform or engine you prefer, is an emotional experience. I have my preferences and biases, just as everyone else.. but I never quite got the logic behind people who actually get mad , or have so much hatred toward something else just because of the country it was made it, how many cylinders it has, or what end the drive wheels are on. As long as everyone is enjoying themselves, who cares? Id much rather go to a meet with a ton of variety of things to look at, with a group of people who all get along and can appreciate each others taste, than stare at the same thing over and over.. no matter how much I may like it.

Now we should quit mucking up Logan's thread lol... MOAR 4 ROTORZ!!

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Indeed. Seems like for $10k, you could have one custom built from scratch. Maybe a couple.

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

Don't buy into the bad reliability rap rotaries get just because knuckleheads like your car's previous owner couldn't do it right. I've seen more blown LS's than 20b's on this forum, though the rarity of 20b's plays a factor there.
Moreover, the shops and racers I reference and respect don't seem to have any trouble with blown rotaries.

RCCAZ 1

iTrader: (10)

Guys, sorry if my inital post lit any flames. I want us to stay on topic. Was just trying to get a top level cost "walk" as to why Gordon and Logan made their $75 to $80K statements. I trust Logan and the incredible work he's currently producing. Just wish the community could clone him and his ideas into several shops and locate them strategically around the Continental US as to make his products and services convenient to ALL of us!!

Do I hear an AMEN brothas!!

jkg

Someone mentioned weight above in the LSx vs. 20b conversation. How much extra does a 20b add over a twin turbocharged 13b?

mefarri

iTrader: (2)

It's hard to tell I wasn't trying to have a real argument about ls vs. rotary. I was just making a note I had thought of. But there's no way in hell you can say ls motors pop more than rotaries. I know you said "20b's" but that's just semantics. Not trying to start an argument, but you gotta at least be realistic. I appreciate a well done rotary though. In fact I'm building one for a friend. I'll stop cluttering up your thread now.

jkg

Yea, but it's something I've been wondering for a while, considering that you'd lose weight without the turbos and plumbing but gain some (all? more?) back with the addition of the housing et al. I figured you'd come out about even but that's based on guesses and fantasy so it's not particularly useful.

BlackenWkN

beautiful

GtoRx7.

iTrader: (12)

Whew a lot of traffic since I've been gone lol. The Devil is in the details of a 4-rotor conversion. We would only do a 4 rotor two different ways, both involve firewall re-location. The $75k build would be a $5k transmission, Serious clutch, serious flywheel, custom adapter plates, all new rotor housings, p-port machine work, triple plug machine work, internal coolant machine work, custom driveshaft/custom radiator/custom oil coolers/ custom drysump system/ custom slide throttle/custom intake system/the "works" stainless header/exhaust/electromotive ecu x2 and a BUNCH of stuff nobody thinks about. This setup is also getting charged a little extra for tuning that nobody else will offer. So it will make 650+ rwhp.


A water-downed version might touch $56k, which is saving money using more used parts, "normal" header, so on. Making 500-550rwhp


Dont take this the wrong way, just a couple points. First, a LS1 in a FD will never make 1500hp unless its a turbocharged engine. There is simply not enough room in a FD to put two turbos on a LS1. If you stuff it in the muffler area sure, but a 1500hp turbo wont fit back there. Add to that any remote turbo v8 is horrible to drive. I've driven two, and the lag is unreal. Usable power 4th gear up only.
$40k for 650-700rwhp is a good price given the labor involved.



I will add personally I'm not a fan of a turbo 20b in the FD. Its too much weight and complexity in a tight package. A 20b turbo is heavier than a LS1. However its compactness allows a 700-1000rwhp 20b to fit. Again a LS1 cannot do this.

N/a 4-rotors (or 3-rotors) exceed LS reliability. Its just a fact. This is assuming the engines have proper oil coolers/radiator systems.

N/a 3-rotor comes in at 315lbs fully dressed. Which is around 75lbs lighter than an LS1, and we have been able to produce LS1 hp out of them

N/a 4-rotor done on a budget comes in at 360lbs fully dressed , still lighter than a LS engine. Even more power potential.

I personally like the LS series, but the LS7 is a work of art. Period.


A n/a 20b is lighter than the twin turbo 13b by about 40lbs. A n/a 20b weighs the same as a single turbo 13b. Lastly a turbo 20b weights about 60lbs more than a twin turbo 13b.

So in short- 20b turbo > 13b twin turbo> Lsx > 4-rotor n/a >n/a 20b > single turbo 13b.