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It does work perfectly fine. Something else is going on. We used the same pump on Mikes Formula Drift twin turbo engine without opening it up for over 15 series events with practice days in between each of those competitions without any oil pressure issues what so ever.
And it was routed this same way, with the internal pump still being utilized in the engine? can you be more specific about the setup?
I saw mikes car in person at FD. Its a dry sump, and more than likely the internal pump is deleted.
I'm not sure what else to say about this other than it failed, and luckily it didn't kill the engine. I'm paying for the cost of the new pump, and talking to Peterson about what/how to do this.
Have yet to receive any instruction, have yet to receive a base-map from the supplier, warranty information, and/or start-up/breaking in notes. I've also yet to have been told if I void warranty or not to remove front cover and remove internal pump. That's why I'm here seeking advice as to how we can keep the system operational with as little changes as possible.
And it was routed this same way, with the internal pump still being utilized in the engine? can you be more specific about the setup?
I saw mikes car in person at FD. Its a dry sump, and more than likely the internal pump is deleted.
I'm not sure what else to say about this other than it failed, and luckily it didn't kill the engine. I'm paying for the cost of the new pump, and talking to Peterson about what/how to do this.
Have yet to receive any instruction, have yet to receive a base-map from the supplier, warranty information, and/or start-up/breaking in notes. I've also yet to have been told if I void warranty or not to remove front cover and remove internal pump. That's why I'm here seeking advice as to how we can keep the system operational with as little changes as possible.
Thankyou
I Don't speak for PPRE ersonally...as I don't work for them. But no one in their right mind is going to warranty an engine that is being tuned by anyone else other than themselves. Either way....You couldn't rightly hold them liable for anything damage wise since the engine has been reved to redline and or two stepped all without a/their base map then. It really doesn't take much to cause damage. So, If you had wanted them to warranty the engine... it would have been a good idea to wait and have them take a look at the set up before hand. Not to judge, but if I were you, I wouldn't put any faith in that warranty now. Just saying.
Are you here to provide constructive feedback or are you here to provide nothing but useless commentary? Not to "judge" but why dont you get back to your pretend world and leave this thread to figuring out how to make this build run correctly.
Found this 49 tooth pulley. So, I may be wrong but looks like if there are 24 teeth on the crank and this pulley is 49 this should make the ratio 24/49 at 49%.
This would effectively make the pulley spin at 5,000rpm when the engine is at 10,000rpm. So now just need to find a belt the fits exactly. Then run a 12an line from the last oil cooler into the inlet of the pump, and a 10an from the outlet to the motor and we should be back into action, after we shim the regulator.
I do think it's the engine builder's fault for assembling the engine with a doomed oil system. I would like to hear from the builder, not just petersen... or anyone that's running a similar setup. I know guru/xtreme rotaries from new zealand (now defunct) sold many semi-wet sump pans with petersen mount years ago... I almost purchased it but it wouldn't have cleared my rx8 subframe. I'm sure there are some more data points.
how does your oil system work? I still don't get how external pump was working "against" the internal pump... I thought it was internal pump that pumps to an external reservoir which gravity feeds the external pump, and external pump pumps into the engine and turbo...? it could just be external pump failure... either way it should be warranted... you barely drove it a few miles!
Last edited by stickmantijuana; 12-25-16 at 12:30 PM.
Regular FD: Internal pump works as normal>oil exits front cover>oil travels to oil coolers>back into engine (normal FD)
This FD: Internal pump>oil exits front cover>T Fitting at front cover where external pump enters (external has its own oil pick up from the Pan)> T fitting combines into 1 line to oil coolers>back to engine
According to Peterson:
1. The pump more than likely failed because of the dissimilar flow rates/pressure hitting each other at the T fitting. The pumps aren't regulated except until they hit the motor's regulator. So one pump is outputting X amount of flow/psi while the other may differ from pulley size etc
2. The external pump should never exceed 5,000rpm, it was running over 6.8-7k rpm, this may have been the cause as well.
So to fix the issue, I will run them in a series, and run the proper recommended sized pulley so that the external does not overspin. With a 50% speed, the external pump should not demand any more flow than the internal will deliver to it, and holding tank should not be required. The internal pump will have not much resistance as all its functioning is like a lift pump to the external.
While you understand where I'm coming from, unfortunately some do not. Having high ambitions and expectations always seems to be the recipe that stirs up a few folks.
Not looking for hassle of proving fault, just want to make sure this engine is setup correctly so that there is no more risk, even if it means I have to spend more to fix it. From the few other builders, I've been told the engine is bypassing at 95psi, and it would be a good idea to increase the pressure to 120psi+ with so many engine bearings and high rpm.
Anyhow, thanks for your positive feedback. And I love your manifold design.
* you can see on the top of the peterson is the outlet, it joins the outlet from the front cover. You can't see the Y fitting but its behind the belt. So instead the top of the Peterson will run to the pedestal, and the bottom of the Peterson will run to the oil cooler.
On a side note, We've been tossing around the idea of doing an S500SX since the manifold has to be remade. Based on the spool of the 96mm turbine on the s480, it seems like the 110mm wheel on the s500 would offer better flow/less back pressure down the road if the car was ever turned up. The only issue is the thing is so damn huge, but prices aren't too bad if we sell the s480. They come in journal bearing which is great as easy to rebuild.
I Don't speak for PPRE ersonally...as I don't work for them. But no one in their right mind is going to warranty an engine that is being tuned by anyone else other than themselves. Either way....You couldn't rightly hold them liable for anything damage wise since the engine has been reved to redline and or two stepped all without a/their base map then. It really doesn't take much to cause damage. So, If you had wanted them to warranty the engine... it would have been a good idea to wait and have them take a look at the set up before hand. Not to judge, but if I were you, I wouldn't put any faith in that warranty now. Just saying.
Zach. all I can say is sorry for the headaches you have had to go thru. all the miss information and bad dealings you have had is the reason most of us old school guys don't bother on here anymore yet we talk daily in other chats. I was just saying today about how you have to really know who to trust and who is repeating info or trying to make a buck in the rotary world. you have done an amazing job on your build needless to say and I can see you have learned a bunch along the way. Keep your head up as you have built a sick machine.
Zach. all I can say is sorry for the headaches you have had to go thru. all the miss information and bad dealings you have had is the reason most of us old school guys don't bother on here anymore yet we talk daily in other chats. I was just saying today about how you have to really know who to trust and who is repeating info or trying to make a buck in the rotary world. you have done an amazing job on your build needless to say and I can see you have learned a bunch along the way. Keep your head up as you have built a sick machine.
Mike
Thanks Mike,
i understand where youre coming from. Forums have changed alot since 2006, and now with make believe social media world, things can easily be bent out of proper perspective. Nonetheless, i continue posting just because i just love cars as a hobby. Met a lot of real people from this very thread, and the pretenders read it too whether they admit it or not.
Merry Christmas and ready to smell some more methanol on the newly repainted car of yours
A few pics from the dyno day. Grant's black FD made over 420rwhp at 14psi on single turbo, very proud of his hard work.
Nelson Siverio from RRR Motorsports did an impeccable job. Its hard to find someone to trust 100% with such fragile engines.
What impressed me most about Nelson was his interest in every last bit of the setup. He spent 3 hours going over the car in my storage unit the night before. Checking over every last bit of the setup. He wanted to understand precisely how the fuel system was setup, how the injectors were wired, the inputs and outputs from the ecu, how the vaccuum lines were routed, where the sensors were positioned, the whole nine yard.
As I spoke about the car and answered his questions, he took notes on a clipboard. Even more impressive is how he input the data from the injectors flow chart and latencies in the ECU and was able to pretty much predict the VE table from the get go. It turned out that Cody's map was already pretty spot on at the sub-boost, and free rev. It only took a little bit of tuning to the synchronous fuel and optimizing the timing before it was time to start really getting into WOT. Together we went over the firing order and checked all the crank angles, everything lined up perfectly. I wish we could have gotten further into the map, as the car was screaming at 5k rpm, but the boost was just too extreme. Had we had racefuel or e85 we could have continued, but then the oil pump issue arrived.
Anyhow, I won't hesitate to have him finish the car. The guy knows so much about the in/outs of the Haltech software its incredible. Fail-safes in place for every sensor.
PHOTOGRAPHY CREDIT: Noah Washington - Royal Postures Media, this guy is 14 years old and is one of the most incredible photographers around town.
Some pics I forgot to post of the exhaust system by Walker Morgan from Morgan Performance Fabrication in Birmingham. Fabrication magician. He just finished up the turbo/exhaust work on a 2000hp Nelson Racing Engine setup.
Last picture is an equal length manifold on a 3 rotor car with waste gate priority, and low mount turbo. Im hoping something similar can be done, but with the turbo being top mounted. Thought we may have to use smaller runners to fit it all.
He pays really close attention to detail. On this current manifold, Just out of care and no labor charge, he welded these up and spend 2 hours grinding them smooth to help the exhaust flow.
First, I would like to congratulate zack on a one of a kind build. Truly breath taking and incredible.
However,
There should be no excuse having his oil pump completely fail on dyno day after minimal use. That is directly the engine builder's fault and should be compensated. PPRE should contact you not Peterson, just my opinion. I don't think revving the engine to redline has anything to do with a wrongly fabbed up manifold and also having zack's oil system fail after paying the tuner to fly out. I hope PPRE will contact you and hopefully reimburse or help you with this process.
We'll get it her figured out. Mistakes do happen and right now priority is more getting it running right and figuring out the issue as these parts sure are pricey and this stuff is a bit over my head as far as what direction to go with the oil. Knowing how to set-this up correctly so the next pump is in good shape is goal #1. Just want to make sure she continues to go a long way.
Are you here to provide constructive feedback or are you here to provide nothing but useless commentary? Not to "judge" but why dont you get back to your pretend world and leave this thread to figuring out how to make this build run correctly.
thank you.
I try my hardest to refrain from using provocative wording here. But given the situation and our Past, your statement above is ridiculous. I don't know what you mean by my "pretend world," but Do feel free to elaborate on exactly what that means.
But you are right...No..I'm not here to provide constructive feedback at all. I've answered all your PM's, emails and fb messages and phone calls free of charge, I'm done with that none sense. I'm here to set straight a Good Company (PPRE), and give people the truth so that they aren't swayed either which way by issues that are a product of someone who doesn't know what they're doing with the engine nor set up. If you are going to be so robust about building the car yourself, ...then own up to your mistakes. But being the first to ask for knowledge and using it as your own and then pointing fingers at every which company and not owning up to USER ERROR is immature.
I'll stay out of your thread from here. But as the forums are public...if i feel like i need to comment to give truth to a situation and aid our community..then I will. That's not a threat, it's me being a genuine person and making sure that the companies that exist here...long before you did.. are done right by. And that mis-information isn't spread as fact to those who may not be as experienced.
I try my hardest to refrain from using provocative wording here. But given the situation and our Past, your statement above is ridiculous. I don't know what you mean by my "pretend world," but Do feel free to elaborate on exactly what that means.
But you are right...No..I'm not here to provide constructive feedback at all. I've answered all your PM's, emails and fb messages and phone calls free of charge, I'm done with that none sense. I'm here to set straight a Good Company (PPRE), and give people the truth so that they aren't swayed either which way by issues that are a product of someone who doesn't know what they're doing with the engine nor set up. If you are going to be so robust about building the car yourself, ...then own up to your mistakes. But being the first to ask for knowledge and using it as your own and then pointing fingers at every which company and not owning up to USER ERROR is immature.
I'll stay out of your thread from here. But as the forums are public...if i feel like i need to comment to give truth to a situation and aid our community..then I will. That's not a threat, it's me being a genuine person and making sure that the companies that exist here...long before you did.. are done right by. And that mis-information isn't spread as fact to those who may not be as experienced.
Good Luck with your build
Flattering that you're still here...
There's nothing but facts here, and trying to get the car running right. Its apparent. Never has this thread been used to denigrate any company.
"all those calls and pm's" hmm....I think there's a few things you're leaving out. But I'll just leave it at that.
There's nothing but facts here, and trying to get the car running right. Its apparent. Never has this thread been used to denigrate any company.
"all those calls and pm's" hmm....I think there's a few things you're leaving out. But I'll just leave it at that.
Go ahead and tell me what I've left out. But If your talking about my call regarding Nelson? Nope. I've got nothing to hide and i'd tell him straight to his face everything I told you. Because it's the truth.
I try my hardest to refrain from using provocative wording here. But given the situation and our Past, your statement above is ridiculous. I don't know what you mean by my "pretend world," but Do feel free to elaborate on exactly what that means.
But you are right...No..I'm not here to provide constructive feedback at all. I've answered all your PM's, emails and fb messages and phone calls free of charge, I'm done with that none sense. I'm here to set straight a Good Company (PPRE), and give people the truth so that they aren't swayed either which way by issues that are a product of someone who doesn't know what they're doing with the engine nor set up. If you are going to be so robust about building the car yourself, ...then own up to your mistakes. But being the first to ask for knowledge and using it as your own and then pointing fingers at every which company and not owning up to USER ERROR is immature.
I'll stay out of your thread from here. But as the forums are public...if i feel like i need to comment to give truth to a situation and aid our community..then I will. That's not a threat, it's me being a genuine person and making sure that the companies that exist here...long before you did.. are done right by. And that mis-information isn't spread as fact to those who may not be as experienced.
Good Luck with your build
this reply is nothing but contradicting. If you do not work for PPRE and have no involvement with the original contract, how can you reply with such confidence? PPRE set up the oil system and it failed on the dyno? How could that possibly be user error when Peterson stated that he pump was set up incorrectly? If I stand corrected, Zack paid PPRE to set up eevrything internally and have this essentially a drop in set up, why did he have to cut his hood to compensate for turbo when PPRE guaranteed the hood would fit? Much less the oil system completely failing less than 300~ miles in the set up. Seems like you have no dog in this fight, let PPRE do the talking.
When you spend $50,000 dollars, wiring it to another country, $1000 to ship a turbo, and $2000 in taxes, then tell me about your opinions on mis-information.
Instead of making these blanket statements, which completely incorrectly conflate revving an engine as user error, then go and post it on your social media "people revving their engines without a tune **** me off" with an obvious oil issue thats being worked on then you're only falsely contributing to mis-information.
I haven't posted on Zach's build thread yet but I'm local so I've been following the build closely and in person and even helping out a bit when I have some free time.
I want to second Zach's words about Nelson. He is incredibly professional and knowledgeable and I would trust him tuning any rotary as long as the car is set up correctly by the owner / builder. He was very meticulous in going over the cars. I even changed a few things about my setup at 5 am on dyno day so that everything would be correct. The other thing I really liked about Nelson is that he doesn't chase numbers on the dyno. He tunes the cars where they want to be and perform best. I ended up with a flat touque curve from 4k rpm up (full boost). The power delivery is amazing and the tune is safe on pump gas so I couldn't be happier.
Now on to the 4 rotor manifold issue... There just simply isn't any excuse for the manifold being designed and built incorrectly. The turbo was mailed to PPRE so they could use that exact turbo to do the mock-up for manifold, charge piping, etc. The turbo has a T6 flange with divided housing and the manifold was built using an undivided flange which was the first mistake. Why not build a true twin scroll setup if you have a turbo with divided housing and are making the manifold from scratch? Well at least we are assuming that it was designed for Zach's build because that is what he paid for. With a divided setup rotors the rotors that fire 180 degrees from each other should be paired together but this was not the case on this manifold. Normally this wouldn't be a big deal if you are using an undivided manifold and undivided turbine housing but this engine produces so much exhaust flow that it does matter. The other issues with the manifold include poor wastegate placement (flow direction) and runner length (front two runners are extremely short). As a result the two 50mm wastegates couldn't even control boost when forced open by an air compressor on the dyno. So a new manifold with have to be designed and built after the hood has already been cut for the first one that PPRE said would fit and allow hood to close.
Now the oil issue... I won't comment too much on this one as there are many variables that have to be considered to make sure it works properly. It was however completely designed and built by PPRE to be a drop in oil solution and failed spectacularly on dyno day. Those Peterson pumps are rock solid and almost never fail and Peterson was quick to point out that it failed due to improper setup. And yes, I will admit that a manufacturer will generally try to point the blame away from their product and place it on the customer but in this case I believe them 100%.
All of this being said and taken into consideration, I would hope that PPRE would help out in some way. Not trying to blast or defame but just lay out the facts so everyone can get a clearer picture.
On and I also got Walker Morgan to do my exhaust fab after seeing the 4 rotor setup in person. I already had the manifold and downpipe (5" off turbo flaring down to 4" and 4 inch all the way back with single oval Magnaflow in the center. Walker does incredible work. I don't want to hijack this thread but I'll post a couple pics later.
I haven't posted on Zach's build thread yet but I'm local so I've been following the build closely and in person and even helping out a bit when I have some free time.
I want to second Zach's words about Nelson. He is incredibly professional and knowledgeable and I would trust him tuning any rotary as long as the car is set up correctly by the owner / builder. He was very meticulous in going over the cars. I even changed a few things about my setup at 5 am on dyno day so that everything would be correct. The other thing I really liked about Nelson is that he doesn't chase numbers on the dyno. He tunes the cars where they want to be and perform best. I ended up with a flat touque curve from 4k rpm up (full boost). The power delivery is amazing and the tune is safe on pump gas so I couldn't be happier.
Now on to the 4 rotor manifold issue... There just simply isn't any excuse for the manifold being designed and built incorrectly. The turbo was mailed to PPRE so they could use that exact turbo to do the mock-up for manifold, charge piping, etc. The turbo has a T6 flange with divided housing and the manifold was built using an undivided flange which was the first mistake. Why not build a true twin scroll setup if you have a turbo with divided housing and are making the manifold from scratch? Well at least we are assuming that it was designed for Zach's build because that is what he paid for. With a divided setup rotors the rotors that fire 180 degrees from each other should be paired together but this was not the case on this manifold. Normally this wouldn't be a big deal if you are using an undivided manifold and undivided turbine housing but this engine produces so much exhaust flow that it does matter. The other issues with the manifold include poor wastegate placement (flow direction) and runner length (front two runners are extremely short). As a result the two 50mm wastegates couldn't even control boost when forced open by an air compressor on the dyno. So a new manifold with have to be designed and built after the hood has already been cut for the first one that PPRE said would fit and allow hood to close.
Now the oil issue... I won't comment too much on this one as there are many variables that have to be considered to make sure it works properly. It was however completely designed and built by PPRE to be a drop in oil solution and failed spectacularly on dyno day. Those Peterson pumps are rock solid and almost never fail and Peterson was quick to point out that it failed due to improper setup. And yes, I will admit that a manufacturer will generally try to point the blame away from their product and place it on the customer but in this case I believe them 100%.
All of this being said and taken into consideration, I would hope that PPRE would help out in some way. Not trying to blast or defame but just lay out the facts so everyone can get a clearer picture.
On and I also got Walker Morgan to do my exhaust fab after seeing the 4 rotor setup in person. I already had the manifold and downpipe (5" off turbo flaring down to 4" and 4 inch all the way back with single oval Magnaflow in the center. Walker does incredible work. I don't want to hijack this thread but I'll post a couple pics later.
Its nice that these builds are for pure enjoyment. I need a ride in yours, still haven't felt it after the tune.
12-24-16, 02:39 PM
