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There's a super awesome local fabricator here who does impeccable work. We're going to go with a new manifold. Fully divided, twin scroll, equal length, with increased runner size, and try to stick priority to the gates with the turbine flange being the opposed angle.
Goal is to get this manifold out quickly and have the car over for the work up and hopefully be back on the road screaming shortly.
Thanks to awesome rotary community, been able to get in contact with a few 4 rotor guys. Looks like the manifold isn't so much of an issue being 13-24 pairing. Its suggested that this firing style might be ok for flow, but only cause the sound to be different.
So we could still get around that issue with an undivided turbine, but then the wastegates would still be overwhelmed which would require a turbine waste-gate. So proceeeding with new manifold design where the waste-gates will have direct path.
Planning to use a 4:1 merge collector which should merge the firings into order through 1 pipe, which will then be 90* to the turbine, waste-gates before the 90* angle if we can fit it all. May move up to larger diameter runners as well to actually make the turbine a little lazier. Looking forward to hearing what the waste-gates will sound like after the air has merged into the single tube.
Here's a super bada** designed manifold by stickman. This looks perfect for a rotary!
Hoping theres's clearance to do something like this^ and then have turbo mounted 90* off the end of the collector, with gates before the bend at full priority.
The pump failed because it was ran against the internal pump both feeding the engine. It must be ran alone as head pressure from another pump will destroy the pump.
Time to pull the engine, the front cover, pull out the internal oil pump, and delete the oil pressure regulator bypass on the rear iron so we can run the new Peterson pump alone. Will get the manifold done first, then pull the engine afterwards. Compression testing tonight to verify the engine is actually good first.
but it sounds like it was set-up as wet-sump (with oil pan) and the factory internal pump from the supplier and then you added an external dry sump style pump as insurance?
Is that correct?
If it is, another option you could do is have the factory pump transfer oil from the pan to an external reservoir (it will have plenty of volume flow without having to supply volume and pressure) and have the external dry sump style pump draw from your reservoir.
You wouldn't have to take your engine front apart and you would have the capacity and constant supply from the external tank.
-edit- so the hypothetical system would run
Wet sump (oil pan) to stock internal pump
stock internal pump outlet to external reservoir
top of external reservoir return to oil pan
bottom of external reservoir to external pump inlet
external pump outlet to oil coolers inlet
oil coolers outlet to rear iron/pressure regulator
but it sounds like it was set-up as wet-sump (with oil pan) and the factory internal pump from the supplier and then you added an external dry sump style pump as insurance?
Is that correct?
If it is, another option you could do is have the factory pump transfer oil from the pan to an external reservoir (it will have plenty of volume flow without having to supply volume and pressure) and have the external dry sump style pump draw from your reservoir.
You wouldn't have to take your engine front apart and you would have the capacity and constant supply from the external tank.
-edit- so the hypothetical system would run
Wet sump (oil pan) to stock internal pump
stock internal pump outlet to external reservoir
top of external reservoir return to oil pan
bottom of external reservoir to external pump inlet
external pump outlet to oil coolers inlet
oil coolers outlet to rear iron/pressure regulator
Impugn apexes with impunity
Yes sir exactly.
The supplier actually installed the external. So the external picks up fro the right side, and the internal picks up from the left side and uses internal line as OEM. When the oil comes out of the engine at the front cover outlet, the fitting has a T that takes on the external pumps oulet, then they both flow via one line through the coolers and back to the pedestal.
The external was added to assist in flow at high rpm and provide higher pressure, but unfortunately it causes competition between the pumps from the disimilar flows and from the fact the the external has its own regulator which can make it overflow the oem regulator causing a ton of bypass oil
Your idea sounds great. In fact, I was told by a really famous builder in USA, that this would work as you're suggesting.
OEM pump to suck up the oil > coolers > external pump inlet > external to the engine. He said to shim the regulator for really high pressure and use the external pumps' adjustment **** to set the psi, and set it for 130+ psi, so that we "float" the bearings, instead of the 95psi maximum that the oem regulator will allow right now.
Also, he's said that the internal pump is driven at 36% ratio. And that if the external is driven at 50% which is typical, it will be fine without necessity of a reseviour (there's hardly any room to put any more tanks)
What i'm wondering is how to know if its actually running at 50% underdrive ratio?
The hub / pulley is all one unit on my engine. Its a CNC machined hub with pulley tracts for the alternator and on the nose for the oil pump. If i hold the oil pump pulley next to the hub, they seem to be the same size, so would this mean its driven at the same rate instead of 50%?
Ok so I've pulled the turbo off the car and ran it off the internal oil pump, w/ the external incoming feed blocked off to prevent back flow. Engine is holding 85psi at idle and is running fine.
Trying to work on getting the pump back from Peterson and setting up a system routed in a series
Am I understanding this correctly? The Car was over-boosting on the dyno with dual 50MM gates at 5PSI? And a new Manifold is being built with a single 60MM gate? And a New Un-Divided housing is being swapped out for the divided housing?
Am I understanding this correctly? The Car was over-boosting on the dyno with dual 50MM gates at 5PSI? And a new Manifold is being built with a single 60MM gate? And a New Un-Divided housing is being swapped out for the divided housing?
Hey buddy,
I think you misunderstood or I wasnt making it clear, but,
The car was set w 5psi spring, yet the gates were creeping over 15psi at 4k rpm before power band so there wasnt much we could do. I had the thought to add a 60mm wastegate to the turbine, so that we could have a chance at keeping it at least at 15psi or less through the power band.
However, it became apparent that the priority on the manifold is not ideal for flow. After talking with some manifold builders, iv learned that the 50mm are way more than enough in surface area but that its priority thats the issue. They are routed 90*s off the collector, which allows air to.blow past them. Instead, a proper manifold would be something like gleaseman builds with gates off of each runner in direction of the flow or, making it so that the gates are in the direction of the flow off the collector, with turbine having the opposed priority. Additionally found that it doesnt sound quite right w turbo installed, this is likely due to the order of the pairing being 13 24 into the divider when correct pairing should be 12 34 for twin scroll (hence idea to go undivided).
Anyhow, we're going to make a more ideal flowing manifold, with stainless, a 4:1 collector with order of 1234, and larger more equal length runners if possible to help minimize reversion. The 2x 50mm will be at first priority and collected so that the sound isnt split to them, and they are given first priority. If its still insufficient, then we will add the 60mm. With a 4:1 collector and turbine off of the converged pipe, the pairing should no longer be an issue with twin scroll turbine housing.
I think you misunderstood or I wasnt making it clear, but,
The car was set w 5psi spring, yet the gates were creeping over 15psi at 4k rpm before power band so there wasnt much we could do. I had the thought to add a 60mm wastegate to the turbine, so that we could have a chance at keeping it at least at 15psi or less through the power band.
However, it became apparent that the priority on the manifold is not ideal for flow. After talking with some manifold builders, iv learned that the 50mm are way more than enough in surface area but that its priority thats the issue. They are routed 90*s off the collector, which allows air to.blow past them. Instead, a proper manifold would be something like gleaseman builds with gates off of each runner in direction of the flow or, making it so that the gates are in the direction of the flow off the collector, with turbine having the opposed priority. Additionally found that it doesnt sound quite right w turbo installed, this is likely due to the order of the pairing being 13 24 into the divider when correct pairing should be 12 34 for twin scroll (hence idea to go undivided).
Anyhow, we're going to make a more ideal flowing manifold, with stainless, a 4:1 collector with order of 1234, and larger more equal length runners if possible to help minimize reversion. The 2x 50mm will be at first priority and collected so that the sound isnt split to them, and they are given first priority. If its still insufficient, then we will add the 60mm. With a 4:1 collector and turbine off of the converged pipe, the pairing should no longer be an issue with twin scroll turbine housing.
Hmmm....ok gotcha. Were you just using 5lb springs? with no EBC? That sounds really odd to me because although they're not tear dropped... They're in good locations...and i've seen far worse prio'd manifolds still do the job. Are you sure the gates were hooked up correctly? It's pretty easy to get the lines top to bottom on the gates flip flopped. Did you test them with an air compressor and nozzle in the hose to see if they were in fact opening at at all? Rather than being held shut?
At 15lbs of boost it should make in the realm of 800-850ish whp.
If your inclined to experiment, you might try check valve(s). Run it by Petersen.
awesome info dude!
So i was talking w a 4 rotor guru in miami who suggested that we run the internal pump as the scavenge. That we really should only use one pickup off the pan to minimize heat and chances of getting air in a line. The internal is allegedly arranged at 36% underdrive to the e shaft. This would feed oil through the coolers and then into the inlet of the peterson unit. The peterson unit is recommened to be sized with a 50% ratio underdrive. Right now its setup at 30%ish, 36 teeth vs 24 on the crank hub. We need to upsize it to the 49 tooth pulley for the recommended ratio. This should ensure that the internal will flow more than the peterson demands in supply, ridding the necessity for a reservoir. The peterson will then work more efficiently and flow direct to the pedestal.
Weve also been recommended by two usa based builders to run at least 120psi of pressure to cushion the bearings at high rpm, so we will drop the subframe and remove the regulator, shimming it for 120psi+, then adjust the peterson units bypass to deliver 120psi at peak and deliver a 10psi gain per 1k rpm from base of 50-60psi.
Hmmm....ok gotcha. Were you just using 5lb springs? with no EBC? That sounds really odd to me because although they're not tear dropped... They're in good locations...and i've seen far worse prio'd manifolds still do the job. Are you sure the gates were hooked up correctly? It's pretty easy to get the lines top to bottom on the gates flip flopped. Did you test them with an air compressor and nozzle in the hose to see if they were in fact opening at at all? Rather than being held shut?
At 15lbs of boost it should make in the realm of 800-850ish whp.
yes sir my man lol i know right!!!
yes, we held the gates open with air compressor widdddeee open and she still blasted to 15psi as soon as we hit throttle. This was to rule out signal to gates and if springs were midsized. They were screaming wide open and it still creeped well over 14psi at 5k. Pulling so much fuel that it maxed out the fuel and dropped 9psi pressure on medium speed with this fuel pump. Definitely dont wanna even guess what she would have gone to at 10k lol
Yea the same type manifold went on the ole 20b and she did fine held 4psi so i was shocked but the pport velocity is just insane especially with the schedule 40 size runners.
If I'm reading this right, the Peterson R4 on my car can cause bearing damage and shaft destruction over 5.5krpm of shaft speed.
The engine setup is geared at 24 tooth crank pulley with 36 tooth peterson pulley. Thats 68 percent, meaning when the engine is turning 10k rpm, the Oil pump is turning 6800rpm.
Time to find a 50% underdrive pulley (49 tooth) as recommended by Peterson.
I sense your frustration, but this is the MOST important part.
If the internal pump is regulated to 85psi and feeds the Peterson, then the external pump only needs to make 35 psi to make your 120 psi goal. I didn't see any pump curves on the Peterson site so you might be low in the ratio/rpm range to meet 35psi. You might find yourself juggling the internal pump pressure and the external pump speed to get the desired psi and speed.
Your gear ratio of the Peterson s/b sized to maintain 120psi across the rpm range and under 5.5k rpm. Perhaps the Peterson pump s/b regulated also. This accomplished by the bypass like you said.
Does Peterson have a pump that can put out 120psi? I'm starting to think single pump. One less parasitic loss.
I would also recommend a pressure gauge at the pump outlet. This is a quick reference to the pumps performance.
I sense your frustration, but this is the MOST important part.
If the internal pump is regulated to 85psi and feeds the Peterson, then the external pump only needs to make 35 psi to make your 120 psi goal. I didn't see any pump curves on the Peterson site so you might be low in the ratio/rpm range to meet 35psi. You might find yourself juggling the internal pump pressure and the external pump speed to get the desired psi and speed.
Your gear ratio of the Peterson s/b sized to maintain 120psi across the rpm range and under 5.5k rpm. Perhaps the Peterson pump s/b regulated also. This accomplished by the bypass like you said.
Does Peterson have a pump that can put out 120psi? I'm starting to think single pump. One less parasitic loss.
I would also recommend a pressure gauge at the pump outlet. This is a quick reference to the pumps performance.
Old Pump Guy.
Thanks again for the help,
The internal pump's pressure is regulated by the internal bypass/regulator when the oil comes back into the motor. So if the internal pump + external pump are in a series, they both flow to that bypass regulator at the end. So in theory, the regulator in the engine is regulating both pumps. The first pump will just flow through the second pump, bypassing at the regulator built into the second pump's limit setting. By setting the upper limit to the regulator in the engine to 120psi, we should be able to throttle the pressure up/down on the external pump so that engine sees 120psi early or later, but ultimately external pump or not, the engine would eventually reach 120psi based on internal pumps output alone.
So basically, there would be two bypass regulators, one in the external pump, before the engine, and one in the engine after both pumps. The one on the motor will be the ultimate bypass reflief for the upper limit of 120-130psi, and the external pumps build-in bypass would help regulate the internal pumps incoming flow and the external's outgoing psi, allowing variability of when that 120psi maximum occurs whether lower or higher up the rpm range.
This is just what I've gathered from talking with Peterson. Peterson basically explained it as the 1st pump in the series is just a "lift pump" or better yet function as a "big gravity feed" to the external pump, making it easy for the external pump to draw in oil.
And to answer your last question, yes this pump should be able to deliver over 150psi and more flow than the FD3S pump, alone according to peterson. This is the same R4 thats used on the big dry sump applications, except the difference being its only the pressure stage, and doesn't have the 2 or 3 or 4 stages behind it that are used for vaccuum/scavenge.
I hope i'm understanding all this, unfortunately the engine supplier seems to think the way they had it works fine.
I hope i'm understanding all this, unfortunately the engine supplier seems to think the way they had it works fine.[/QUOTE]
It does work perfectly fine. Something else is going on. We used the same pump on Mikes Formula Drift twin turbo engine without opening it up for over 15 series events with practice days in between each of those competitions without any oil pressure issues what so ever.
12-19-16, 12:14 PM
