Kilo Racing 3 Rotor FD Conversion
05-31-08, 04:17 PM
#2251
David got the shaft a couple times on this deal, it is in the right hands now and altough it hasnt gone as smooth as he liked these things happen.
Once again, show me one other 3 rotor swap that has gone smoothly. It is a lot of custom work. Often times it is stuff that needs ordered or faulty parts that come from other places that hold the project up, has nothing to do with the shop or the one performing the work. That stuff is just part of playing the game when you want a car to make 4 times the original horsepower on a chassis that was never designed to make these numbers.
Everyone can learn plenty of valuable lessons from this thread, however, saying never trust any shop is a big slap in the face to people like myself that go way outta their way to make sure everyone is happy.
06-01-08, 01:40 PM
#2252
Let me weigh in on the shop discussion. First, I preface my comments as a person who built a successful software company and sold it for big bucks in 2004. One of the primary reasons for my success - excellent customer service. I didn't have as large a staff or nearly as much money as my competitors (I did about $8 million per year in revenue where my primary competitors were over $1 billion: that's right, with a "b"). What I did have was a great product and customer service that couldn't be touched.
Regarding shops and time estimates, I firmly believe shops don't do a good job upfront of assessing what is required to complete a job. Most of the shops I have dealt with don't really look into what is needed. They simply throw out a time estimate to get you in the shop. Once in, things change dramatically. This hurts the shop as much as it does the customer because the customer is given an impression/promise of when the car will be ready and rarely is this timeframe met. So, the customer gets upset and the shop's reputation is tarnished. Much better analysis upfront would solve this problem and I would urge shops to consider better planning.
But RX7's are old and things happen you say? That's true. It's tough for shops to know exactly what they'll run into until the get into the job. This is why the spec work upfront is so critical. In addition, and as important in my opinion, is communication with the customer. When something goes wrong, the shop should immediately call the customer to discuss the situation. In my experience, this rarely happens and the customer is left having to call/email/pester the shop until they know what is going on. Not good in my book. I firmly believe most customers would be cool with the extra time it takes shops if they would simply communicate on a routine basis with the customer. I know I would. And if things are on schedule, shops should call also to let the customer know everything is on track. Remember, without customers, no matter how much of a pain in the *** they are, money doesn't come in and ultimately, the business will fail.
Now that I've sold my company, I teach entrepreneurship/starting businesses at the collegiate level. I heavily stress the planning process and the customer service aspect of running a business, particularly if a business is small or a startup. And most of the RX7 shops fall into this category.
Wouldn't it be great to have a shop that excelled at dealing upfront with the customer and where you knew what was needed on your car and how long it would take from day one? Wouldn't it also be a pleasure to hear from your shop regularly on the progress on the car? Finally, wouldn't it be good to have your final bill reasonably match what you were told upfront? This really is all possible.
So why doesn't it happen often? In my opinion, there are many great and gifted mechanics in the RX7 community but I don't think many are great business people. The skill sets required to run a business in the fashion I describe are very different from the skills needed to be a great mechanic and most shops are just too busy to be able to take the time to make fundamental changes to their business model. The good news is the skills I talk about can be taught and learned and it has always been my belief that those shops that adopt better customer service strategies can rake in the money with the RX7 community.
Think it can't work and I'm wrong? I was told the exact thing by my software programmers - "We'll be done when we're done" and "I don't have time to talk to customers, I writing code". But I forced the change and became a top 10 rated vendor (out of about 300) and successfully sold the company.
Anyway, enough soap boxing for me today. I truly do appreciate the good mechanics out there but encourage all of you to challenge how you deal with customers. It could be a win-win for all.
Regarding shops and time estimates, I firmly believe shops don't do a good job upfront of assessing what is required to complete a job. Most of the shops I have dealt with don't really look into what is needed. They simply throw out a time estimate to get you in the shop. Once in, things change dramatically. This hurts the shop as much as it does the customer because the customer is given an impression/promise of when the car will be ready and rarely is this timeframe met. So, the customer gets upset and the shop's reputation is tarnished. Much better analysis upfront would solve this problem and I would urge shops to consider better planning.
But RX7's are old and things happen you say? That's true. It's tough for shops to know exactly what they'll run into until the get into the job. This is why the spec work upfront is so critical. In addition, and as important in my opinion, is communication with the customer. When something goes wrong, the shop should immediately call the customer to discuss the situation. In my experience, this rarely happens and the customer is left having to call/email/pester the shop until they know what is going on. Not good in my book. I firmly believe most customers would be cool with the extra time it takes shops if they would simply communicate on a routine basis with the customer. I know I would. And if things are on schedule, shops should call also to let the customer know everything is on track. Remember, without customers, no matter how much of a pain in the *** they are, money doesn't come in and ultimately, the business will fail.
Now that I've sold my company, I teach entrepreneurship/starting businesses at the collegiate level. I heavily stress the planning process and the customer service aspect of running a business, particularly if a business is small or a startup. And most of the RX7 shops fall into this category.
Wouldn't it be great to have a shop that excelled at dealing upfront with the customer and where you knew what was needed on your car and how long it would take from day one? Wouldn't it also be a pleasure to hear from your shop regularly on the progress on the car? Finally, wouldn't it be good to have your final bill reasonably match what you were told upfront? This really is all possible.
So why doesn't it happen often? In my opinion, there are many great and gifted mechanics in the RX7 community but I don't think many are great business people. The skill sets required to run a business in the fashion I describe are very different from the skills needed to be a great mechanic and most shops are just too busy to be able to take the time to make fundamental changes to their business model. The good news is the skills I talk about can be taught and learned and it has always been my belief that those shops that adopt better customer service strategies can rake in the money with the RX7 community.
Think it can't work and I'm wrong? I was told the exact thing by my software programmers - "We'll be done when we're done" and "I don't have time to talk to customers, I writing code". But I forced the change and became a top 10 rated vendor (out of about 300) and successfully sold the company.
Anyway, enough soap boxing for me today. I truly do appreciate the good mechanics out there but encourage all of you to challenge how you deal with customers. It could be a win-win for all.
06-01-08, 01:51 PM
#2253
David gives good points. I learned those things myself without reading books but by how I feel when I deal with business as a customer.
Now my customers get follow up at least 2-3 times while I'm working on software. They know things will take longer week or 2 weeks BEFORE deadline so they know stuff being worked on. It makes people much more happy.
Saying "your car will be done when it's done" is cool and everything. But paying customer likes to know what's going on. And customer would be fine if job was done for free. But if person pays - they have right to know what's going on. And worse thing can be done - is to show customer that you are doing them a favor.
I'm working on my cars myself, don't have to deal with shops but I do understand how much labor goes into something. And if it's 20 hours of labor then everything else is waiting for parts and unexpected.
Now my customers get follow up at least 2-3 times while I'm working on software. They know things will take longer week or 2 weeks BEFORE deadline so they know stuff being worked on. It makes people much more happy.
Saying "your car will be done when it's done" is cool and everything. But paying customer likes to know what's going on. And customer would be fine if job was done for free. But if person pays - they have right to know what's going on. And worse thing can be done - is to show customer that you are doing them a favor.
I'm working on my cars myself, don't have to deal with shops but I do understand how much labor goes into something. And if it's 20 hours of labor then everything else is waiting for parts and unexpected.
06-01-08, 02:40 PM
#2254
This has been my biggest gripe with shops/vendors not keeping me informed of the status of what I have paid my hard earned money for and just leaving me to twiddle my thumbs until "when it's done". Although I try to do all work/repairs myself, I have had this problem with the likes of forum member(s) I have bought parts from as well as major vendors that sell parts on a daily basis. If they had only said, "I didn't get to ship your parts today" rather than not tell you they waited too late to ship on Friday and expect to ship Monday only to learn it's a holiday and have to wait till next Friday to ship because they will be out of town Tuesday thur Thursday and then forget about the parts until they read the email you sent them for a status.
This is why I try to do all work/repairs myself, because I can only imagine how many strokes I would have had if I relied on shops to do any of my work...
06-01-08, 03:56 PM
#2255
How often do you give updates and follow-ups to customers on the status of the work? Enough to keep their mind at ease? No one has ever complained about you not keeping them informed?
This has been my biggest gripe with shops/vendors not keeping me informed of the status of what I have paid my hard earned money for and just leaving me to twiddle my thumbs until "when it's done". Although I try to do all work/repairs myself, I have had this problem with the likes of forum member(s) I have bought parts from as well as major vendors that sell parts on a daily basis. If they had only said, "I didn't get to ship your parts today" rather than not tell you they waited too late to ship on Friday and expect to ship Monday only to learn it's a holiday and have to wait till next Friday to ship because they will be out of town Tuesday thur Thursday and then forget about the parts until they read the email you sent them for a status.
This is why I try to do all work/repairs myself, because I can only imagine how many strokes I would have had if I relied on shops to do any of my work...
This has been my biggest gripe with shops/vendors not keeping me informed of the status of what I have paid my hard earned money for and just leaving me to twiddle my thumbs until "when it's done". Although I try to do all work/repairs myself, I have had this problem with the likes of forum member(s) I have bought parts from as well as major vendors that sell parts on a daily basis. If they had only said, "I didn't get to ship your parts today" rather than not tell you they waited too late to ship on Friday and expect to ship Monday only to learn it's a holiday and have to wait till next Friday to ship because they will be out of town Tuesday thur Thursday and then forget about the parts until they read the email you sent them for a status.
This is why I try to do all work/repairs myself, because I can only imagine how many strokes I would have had if I relied on shops to do any of my work...
Honestly no one has ever complained about me not keeping them informed. Keep in mind I dont have a huge shop and only take 2-3 cars max at one time. You guys have legitimate complaints with other shops but I dont operate that way at all so it offends guys like myself who work real hard in a dying market(obviously my choice) to keep everyone happy. I have managed to do so until this point.
David's comments were pretty spot on except for the part about looking more into what a car needs. There is no way any shop in the world was going to know his car was going to get that last electrical gremlin with the headlights and there is no way I could have predicted a company who does thousands of turbo rebuilds a year would botch my turbo rebuild for my customer. Most customers understand this, if you guys have been that unhappy with the shops you dealt with then I understand your complaints. However, saying avoid all shops, which is the only thing that keeps this niche market going is just extreme and a slap in the face to the 10 or so great rotary businesses left.
Once again I dont run some huge shop with tons of overhead so my perspective is probably quite different from others out there.
In the end I am saying there are still a decent amount of good guys left in this business who take big risks(by our own choice) to continue the growth of this niche market that is dying off more and more each year. Saying shun all of those guys because someone else did you wrong is just a little much in my opinion.
06-01-08, 06:14 PM
#2256
David's comments were pretty spot on except for the part about looking more into what a car needs. There is no way any shop in the world was going to know his car was going to get that last electrical gremlin with the headlights and there is no way I could have predicted a company who does thousands of turbo rebuilds a year would botch my turbo rebuild for my customer.
The upfront diagnosis is critical however. This to me makes or breaks a shop. Taking a little time upfront to sort what is required goes a long way to keeping everyone's sanity.
In the end I am saying there are still a decent amount of good guys left in this business who take big risks(by our own choice) to continue the growth of this niche market that is dying off more and more each year. Saying shun all of those guys because someone else did you wrong is just a little much in my opinion.
The wise shop will use customer service as a differentiator to gain more business and the smart customer will insist on it.
07-02-08, 02:24 PM
#2261
Attorney to the stars...
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The parts themselves aren't horrific. It is all the other work that comes with it to have it done correctly. Just read the thread or check out the other 20B section...
07-08-08, 07:30 AM
#2265
Update
Well, the initial "final" numbers are in: 648 WHP and 452 ft. lbs. of torque at 19 PSI. Here is the dyno:
Remember, this is a Mustang dyno so it reads at least 10% less than a Dynojet. The equivalent Dynojet numbers would be 713 WHP and 497 ft. lbs. of torque.
Don't freak about the AFRs you see. George indicates the AFRs are in the mid 11s. He is also using water injection for safety and has set very conservative timing. He'll probably squeeze some additional HP out of the engine but I've told him I'm very comfortable with the level we're at so just concentrate on street drivability and ensuring no holes exist in the maps. I've also asked him to focus on the low end of the RPM band to ensure we're getting maximum torque as soon as possible.
The car has a pretty cool ecutout setup that is controlled by the Haltech to come on at a certain boost level. I believe it's set at 12 PSI so anything under 12, the car sounds normal as it uses the full exhaust system. If you punch it however and surpass 12 PSI, the ecutout opens up and the car screams like a wild banshee. I'll post up some videos of the final setup in a few weeks.
So, I know this is weird to say after almost 4 years of the 20B conversion odyssey, but it looks like I'll finally get the car back. I've asked George to button everything up this week and then for us to pick a date for me to go back out to Dallas to do a final run through and inspection. In all reality, this should take place in two weeks.
Remember, this is a Mustang dyno so it reads at least 10% less than a Dynojet. The equivalent Dynojet numbers would be 713 WHP and 497 ft. lbs. of torque.
Don't freak about the AFRs you see. George indicates the AFRs are in the mid 11s. He is also using water injection for safety and has set very conservative timing. He'll probably squeeze some additional HP out of the engine but I've told him I'm very comfortable with the level we're at so just concentrate on street drivability and ensuring no holes exist in the maps. I've also asked him to focus on the low end of the RPM band to ensure we're getting maximum torque as soon as possible.
The car has a pretty cool ecutout setup that is controlled by the Haltech to come on at a certain boost level. I believe it's set at 12 PSI so anything under 12, the car sounds normal as it uses the full exhaust system. If you punch it however and surpass 12 PSI, the ecutout opens up and the car screams like a wild banshee. I'll post up some videos of the final setup in a few weeks.
So, I know this is weird to say after almost 4 years of the 20B conversion odyssey, but it looks like I'll finally get the car back. I've asked George to button everything up this week and then for us to pick a date for me to go back out to Dallas to do a final run through and inspection. In all reality, this should take place in two weeks.
07-08-08, 10:16 AM
#2272
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Wow very nice David. I give you mad props for having so much patiance. I never post here, but I came across this thread yesterday and practically havent stopped reading since. Congrats on the final numbers. Almost pooped in my pants when I saw your latest chart. Again congrats and looking forward to some nice shots and LONG videos.
07-08-08, 03:39 PM
#2273
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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Wow, impressive results to say the least, congrats David 
I know George and Alex must be happy with the results, 700+ useable rwhp at a reasonable boost level is freakin' nuts
I know George and Alex must be happy with the results, 700+ useable rwhp at a reasonable boost level is freakin' nuts
