DJSETO - My '93 FD Build Thread
Dang man, sorry to hear this she has come so far!
Was the engine protections set-up on the 1500?
Are you logging? Hopefully you were…. should have logs of the runs so maybe it’ll point to something… ie low fuel pressure, low voltage or high IAT.
G/L
Steve
Was the engine protections set-up on the 1500?
Are you logging? Hopefully you were…. should have logs of the runs so maybe it’ll point to something… ie low fuel pressure, low voltage or high IAT.
G/L
Steve
Anthony, I'm sorry to hear that! I've had my fair share of blown engines, the first one is probably the hardest. Mine was on my old '88 10th Anniversary, vacuum line to the boost sensor had popped off. I was SUPER bummed.
Take a little time and think of a game plan. The big thing for you may be your time vs. expense - I know you have young 'uns running around that I'm sure take up a good chunk of time.
Options you have -
- Drop it off at Rotorsports with a check. Most expensive, but it will be done right.
- Pull the engine yourself, strip to the short block yourself, drop the short block at Rotorsports. A bit more time involved on your end but less expense.
- Pull the engine and rebuild it yourself. Most time but least expense. Also IMHO the most rewarding.
- Buy a Mazda short block for $4800 or whatever they are now and swap it in. The only down side is it's a stock factory engine - the tolerances aren't as tight as a hand built engine and of course stock ports, I can't remember if you are street ported.
Let us know if you have specific questions or need some guidance.
Dale
Take a little time and think of a game plan. The big thing for you may be your time vs. expense - I know you have young 'uns running around that I'm sure take up a good chunk of time.
Options you have -
- Drop it off at Rotorsports with a check. Most expensive, but it will be done right.
- Pull the engine yourself, strip to the short block yourself, drop the short block at Rotorsports. A bit more time involved on your end but less expense.
- Pull the engine and rebuild it yourself. Most time but least expense. Also IMHO the most rewarding.
- Buy a Mazda short block for $4800 or whatever they are now and swap it in. The only down side is it's a stock factory engine - the tolerances aren't as tight as a hand built engine and of course stock ports, I can't remember if you are street ported.
Let us know if you have specific questions or need some guidance.
Dale
Anthony, I'm sorry to hear that! I've had my fair share of blown engines, the first one is probably the hardest. Mine was on my old '88 10th Anniversary, vacuum line to the boost sensor had popped off. I was SUPER bummed.
Take a little time and think of a game plan. The big thing for you may be your time vs. expense - I know you have young 'uns running around that I'm sure take up a good chunk of time.
Options you have -
- Drop it off at Rotorsports with a check. Most expensive, but it will be done right.
- Pull the engine yourself, strip to the short block yourself, drop the short block at Rotorsports. A bit more time involved on your end but less expense.
- Pull the engine and rebuild it yourself. Most time but least expense. Also IMHO the most rewarding.
- Buy a Mazda short block for $4800 or whatever they are now and swap it in. The only down side is it's a stock factory engine - the tolerances aren't as tight as a hand built engine and of course stock ports, I can't remember if you are street ported.
Let us know if you have specific questions or need some guidance.
Dale
Take a little time and think of a game plan. The big thing for you may be your time vs. expense - I know you have young 'uns running around that I'm sure take up a good chunk of time.
Options you have -
- Drop it off at Rotorsports with a check. Most expensive, but it will be done right.
- Pull the engine yourself, strip to the short block yourself, drop the short block at Rotorsports. A bit more time involved on your end but less expense.
- Pull the engine and rebuild it yourself. Most time but least expense. Also IMHO the most rewarding.
- Buy a Mazda short block for $4800 or whatever they are now and swap it in. The only down side is it's a stock factory engine - the tolerances aren't as tight as a hand built engine and of course stock ports, I can't remember if you are street ported.
Let us know if you have specific questions or need some guidance.
Dale
What I really am hoping for is some indication of what caused the failure and what that damage the failure caused. This rebuilt engine had less than 5k miles on it so it should not have had issues in my opinion so soon. I have no evidence to blame my tuner or my engine builder and frankly, I'm not one to sling blame around as it could have been any number of issues vs just one thing. At first guess, I suspect I didn't premix enough but I don't know if that would be a cause of anything until I see what broke. I'm hoping I can reuse rotors, housings, etc. if things are still within tolerance.
While I dont want to build from a new block, I do want to make sure I spend where I need to this go around so I can get more life out it and it survives future track days. Like do I need to stud the engine? Do I use different seals (I'm running Mazda OEM seals), do I kill the OMP and go full premix only, etc.?
I'm happy with the HP so I don't need a more aggressive port. I picked 14psi of boost as Bryan said that will make good power and not be too hard on the engine. He said we can up the boost but at the expense of reliability.
As it stands now, I want to fix and keep the car as I have so much time, money, sweat, and blood in this car. Aside from the engine rebuild, I did almost all the rest of it myself. That being said, if I blow another engine, ill fix, sell, and move on. I can't dump money into a rebuild if it can't survive more than 4 days at the track (2 last year, 2 this year).
Coolant Temp max :230F
Fuel Pressure operating drop max below target :12 psi delta
Intake air temp MAX : 200 F
overboost ( MAP operating max ) :17 psi
Lean condition max AFR under boost :11.7 afr
Oil temp max : 240 F
Oil pressure minimum above 4000 rpm : 50 psi
I have logging enabled but I didn't pull after each session. What I pulled looks like it has about 50 min of data (Nelson has logging set to only log above 2k RPM). All my temps and pressures look good. I assume the logging just overwrites when full. If not, then I don't have session data from when I really started pushing it. If so, it should have my last session which is when I had my best lap times but that also would be the session after I started having issues. Going forward, I'll pull logs off every session at the track. Nelson is out of the country until the 29th so he's off the grid until then. I can post my logs if anyone wants to take gander if you have the Haltech software. The only thing that was weird is that it showed my max wheel speed as 89.5MPH. I def cracked 130mph on more than one occasion. That does make me wonder if it doesnt overwrite when full in which case that's likely the track sighting lap which won't show anything interesting. Regardless, I didnt hit any engine protection issues or throw any codes to put they car into limp mode.
Last edited by Djseto; Nov 18, 2021 at 03:35 PM.
Sometimes it can be hard to narrow down what exactly happened. Broken apex seals are almost always detonation. I would see if you could be present when Bryan cracks the motor open and see what he finds.
Can't speak for doing track days but IMHO the oil metering pump does a damn fine job. Going full premix on a street driven car is IMHO not smart. Put in some premix for some extra insurance at the track and that's that. But premix won't fix detonation.
Dale
Can't speak for doing track days but IMHO the oil metering pump does a damn fine job. Going full premix on a street driven car is IMHO not smart. Put in some premix for some extra insurance at the track and that's that. But premix won't fix detonation.
Dale
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,785
Likes: 145
From: Colorado Springs, CO
What seals are in the engine and what do the exhaust ports look like? There's a possibility it's just prematurely worn seals.
Several years ago I used E&J seals and my exhaust ports were rectangular with fairly definite corners. I lost compression around 15k miles. The edges of the seals were worn down, from right where the edge of the exhaust port was all the way to the end of the seal, the only part constantly in contact with the housing. I talked to Edgar about it and he told me he was surprised they lasted as long as they did and that I should have been premixing 2oz per gallon WITH the OMP I was still using. That seems pretty ridiculous to me, might as well just run on straight 2-cycle at that point. I've been on one piece Goopy seals since 2014 and I've been premixing 2oz per gallon due to not having an OMP anymore (the new ECU couldn't control it right and it was dumping in 2-cycle 100% all the time and flooding the car) and it's still running strong.
I'm interested to see what the cause is. It doesn't sound catastrophic, you might be looking at a fairly cheap rebuild.
Several years ago I used E&J seals and my exhaust ports were rectangular with fairly definite corners. I lost compression around 15k miles. The edges of the seals were worn down, from right where the edge of the exhaust port was all the way to the end of the seal, the only part constantly in contact with the housing. I talked to Edgar about it and he told me he was surprised they lasted as long as they did and that I should have been premixing 2oz per gallon WITH the OMP I was still using. That seems pretty ridiculous to me, might as well just run on straight 2-cycle at that point. I've been on one piece Goopy seals since 2014 and I've been premixing 2oz per gallon due to not having an OMP anymore (the new ECU couldn't control it right and it was dumping in 2-cycle 100% all the time and flooding the car) and it's still running strong.
I'm interested to see what the cause is. It doesn't sound catastrophic, you might be looking at a fairly cheap rebuild.
What seals are in the engine and what do the exhaust ports look like? There's a possibility it's just prematurely worn seals.
Several years ago I used E&J seals and my exhaust ports were rectangular with fairly definite corners. I lost compression around 15k miles. The edges of the seals were worn down, from right where the edge of the exhaust port was all the way to the end of the seal, the only part constantly in contact with the housing. I talked to Edgar about it and he told me he was surprised they lasted as long as they did and that I should have been premixing 2oz per gallon WITH the OMP I was still using. That seems pretty ridiculous to me, might as well just run on straight 2-cycle at that point. I've been on one piece Goopy seals since 2014 and I've been premixing 2oz per gallon due to not having an OMP anymore (the new ECU couldn't control it right and it was dumping in 2-cycle 100% all the time and flooding the car) and it's still running strong.
I'm interested to see what the cause is. It doesn't sound catastrophic, you might be looking at a fairly cheap rebuild.
Several years ago I used E&J seals and my exhaust ports were rectangular with fairly definite corners. I lost compression around 15k miles. The edges of the seals were worn down, from right where the edge of the exhaust port was all the way to the end of the seal, the only part constantly in contact with the housing. I talked to Edgar about it and he told me he was surprised they lasted as long as they did and that I should have been premixing 2oz per gallon WITH the OMP I was still using. That seems pretty ridiculous to me, might as well just run on straight 2-cycle at that point. I've been on one piece Goopy seals since 2014 and I've been premixing 2oz per gallon due to not having an OMP anymore (the new ECU couldn't control it right and it was dumping in 2-cycle 100% all the time and flooding the car) and it's still running strong.
I'm interested to see what the cause is. It doesn't sound catastrophic, you might be looking at a fairly cheap rebuild.
My Haltech controls the OMP....does it do a good job or should I pull it out?
Bryan is 2.5 hours away. I won't have the time to drop off and them come back to be there but he will take pics and definitely keep me in the loop. I'm thinking I might as well upgrade to dual oil coolers. I know I can DIY but given time, I'll likely just pay Bryan to do it. I did add extra premix for the track day so who knows? Wish I had logs but I found out that logs aren't rolling and I didn't clear them manually after each session.
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,785
Likes: 145
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Oh I couldn't tell you, I have a Syvecs. I would say the Haltech probably does fine considering a lot of people have them and I haven't heard any horror stories about it, but I couldn't tell you for sure. I've been premixing for a few years now and mostly street drive my car, it's not that bad. You could always do 1oz/per gallon just to be safe, or maybe .5oz.
So the initial autopsy is in. Bryan said my front main bearing in the stationary gear is broken. He's going to send me picture later but he said you can visually see where it's worn and that are pieces of copper in the stationery gear. He also said one of my apex seals broke but at the tip. He said there are no sign of chatter marks and scarring on the housings and it does not look like a lean or over boost condition. As for the cause...well...that's the $1M question. Could be lack of lubrication, could be something was out of balance.
This bearing and rotating assembly came out of the car when I found it so I have no idea if maybe the previous own just did some damage to it when it was part of his Bridgeported drag racing setup? Net-Net, this issue doesnt point to a bad tune or a bad engine rebuild. Just failure of a part.
So now what? Bryan is recommending the rebuild with new seals and new springs. I was running Mazda OEM seals but he did suggest the Rotary Aviation Super Seals or the I-rotary seals (but they are more expensive). It's up to me but the RA he said would be a good middle ground, especially since I'm only running 14psi.
The big question I'm struggling with is new housings. He said new housings are $1800 a set. He said I'd obviously get the most longevity and best compression but it's still $1800. @Molotovman and I were chatting and he said from the posts he's seen up here, the RA are pretty hard on housings so does it make sense to buy new housings only to wear on them or run aftermarket seals on my current housings so long as they within spec.
The other question is if I should balance and clearance the rotating assembly. I called Mike at Rotary Science and his take was that based on what we found, it's balance or lubrication issue. Bryan used to have a guy that did that work but he's retired. I found Mike via @Molotovman who probably heard his name through the RX7 grapevine.
While my car is there, I'm also gonna have Bryan fix my 5th gear synchro and use aftermarket studs (made by ARP). Bryan also suggested replacing my oil pump to be safe vs running this 25+ year old one. Right now, without new housings or balancing work, I'm looking at just under $5k.
Could use some feedback on anything I wrote above. I'm trying to find the right balance between cost and reliability. I was also thinking of having Bryan add dual oil cooler setup but I really don't want this to snowball to a 8-9k project when you add up everything I could do. I'll post photos when I get them.
This bearing and rotating assembly came out of the car when I found it so I have no idea if maybe the previous own just did some damage to it when it was part of his Bridgeported drag racing setup? Net-Net, this issue doesnt point to a bad tune or a bad engine rebuild. Just failure of a part.
So now what? Bryan is recommending the rebuild with new seals and new springs. I was running Mazda OEM seals but he did suggest the Rotary Aviation Super Seals or the I-rotary seals (but they are more expensive). It's up to me but the RA he said would be a good middle ground, especially since I'm only running 14psi.
The big question I'm struggling with is new housings. He said new housings are $1800 a set. He said I'd obviously get the most longevity and best compression but it's still $1800. @Molotovman and I were chatting and he said from the posts he's seen up here, the RA are pretty hard on housings so does it make sense to buy new housings only to wear on them or run aftermarket seals on my current housings so long as they within spec.
The other question is if I should balance and clearance the rotating assembly. I called Mike at Rotary Science and his take was that based on what we found, it's balance or lubrication issue. Bryan used to have a guy that did that work but he's retired. I found Mike via @Molotovman who probably heard his name through the RX7 grapevine.
While my car is there, I'm also gonna have Bryan fix my 5th gear synchro and use aftermarket studs (made by ARP). Bryan also suggested replacing my oil pump to be safe vs running this 25+ year old one. Right now, without new housings or balancing work, I'm looking at just under $5k.
Could use some feedback on anything I wrote above. I'm trying to find the right balance between cost and reliability. I was also thinking of having Bryan add dual oil cooler setup but I really don't want this to snowball to a 8-9k project when you add up everything I could do. I'll post photos when I get them.
That's crazy that the apex seal didn't take out the rotor housing, that was a pretty good sized chunk. I would have the turbine blade on your turbo inspected, like pull the turbine housing off, to make sure it didn't chip the blades up on the way out.
I have seen engines that had been running an old school Greddy pulley setup with no air pump and they tightened up the alternator big time to stop belt slip. This pulls the front of the e-shaft up and tears up that front bearing over time and can also kill the water pump. Quite possible that was the setup on your car before you got it, that was SUPER common back in the day. That's why you should run a good idler pulley.
All that said....
- Either of those apex seal choices would be good. Talk to Bryan on pros/cons on each.
- Get a new (or good used) front stationary gear and bearing. If the rear gear is OK I'd get a new bearing it it too and probably do rotor bearings.
- Replace the eccentric shaft with a good used one, I wouldn't trust one that was on a bad bearing.
It's hard to tell from the pictures but that rotor housing looks really scored. But it could just be a surface level dirt or something. May be worth looking for good used ones as a compromise but you can't beat a new rotor housing.
I'd pass on the exotic stuff like rotor clearancing and all that jazz. Keep it around 400hp and you'll be a happy camper.
Dale
I have seen engines that had been running an old school Greddy pulley setup with no air pump and they tightened up the alternator big time to stop belt slip. This pulls the front of the e-shaft up and tears up that front bearing over time and can also kill the water pump. Quite possible that was the setup on your car before you got it, that was SUPER common back in the day. That's why you should run a good idler pulley.
All that said....
- Either of those apex seal choices would be good. Talk to Bryan on pros/cons on each.
- Get a new (or good used) front stationary gear and bearing. If the rear gear is OK I'd get a new bearing it it too and probably do rotor bearings.
- Replace the eccentric shaft with a good used one, I wouldn't trust one that was on a bad bearing.
It's hard to tell from the pictures but that rotor housing looks really scored. But it could just be a surface level dirt or something. May be worth looking for good used ones as a compromise but you can't beat a new rotor housing.
I'd pass on the exotic stuff like rotor clearancing and all that jazz. Keep it around 400hp and you'll be a happy camper.
Dale
@DaleClark I think my car has OEM pulleys now but looking at my photos of when I got it, it looks OEM as well? I've definitely replaced the belts but I allow enough slack for 1/2 twist.
I'm still debating on the seals but leaning toward iRotary. I spoke to Mazmart as they are the East Coast distributor and they had some good things to say.
Bryan has good used stat gear and e-Shaft. He said not to reuse the old one. I'm also leaning towards new housings. I didn't even think to ask Bryan to inspect the turbine wheel..but yeh..wonder where that piece went...
Do you think it worth $475 for the ARP Studs. I also think if it sees the track, I should do the dual oil coolers. Right now however I'm looking at a $9k bill for all this...
I'm so on the cusp of minimal fix and sell or just not track the car...
I thought I was done bleeding [this much] money....
I'm still debating on the seals but leaning toward iRotary. I spoke to Mazmart as they are the East Coast distributor and they had some good things to say.
Bryan has good used stat gear and e-Shaft. He said not to reuse the old one. I'm also leaning towards new housings. I didn't even think to ask Bryan to inspect the turbine wheel..but yeh..wonder where that piece went...
Do you think it worth $475 for the ARP Studs. I also think if it sees the track, I should do the dual oil coolers. Right now however I'm looking at a $9k bill for all this...
I'm so on the cusp of minimal fix and sell or just not track the car...
I thought I was done bleeding [this much] money....
Last edited by Djseto; Dec 14, 2021 at 09:09 AM.
If you are wanting to push big power you will have big expenses as well.
Keep your power to around 400 (which is plenty) and you don't have to worry as much about stuff breaking and needing more exotic parts.
I would pass on the studs. Also you can do dual oil coolers later on, you don't have to do that now.
Read my rebuilding your engine thread, I have a post I did recently about the "while you are in there" trap.
I would also message Ihor at IR Performance on apex seals, I think he's used some I-Rotaries and also RX Parts, he does a lot more builds and may have some good feedback for you.
Really, get the engine back together, don't mess with anything external to the engine that doesn't need it, and do a smart build on the engine.
Dale
Keep your power to around 400 (which is plenty) and you don't have to worry as much about stuff breaking and needing more exotic parts.
I would pass on the studs. Also you can do dual oil coolers later on, you don't have to do that now.
Read my rebuilding your engine thread, I have a post I did recently about the "while you are in there" trap.
I would also message Ihor at IR Performance on apex seals, I think he's used some I-Rotaries and also RX Parts, he does a lot more builds and may have some good feedback for you.
Really, get the engine back together, don't mess with anything external to the engine that doesn't need it, and do a smart build on the engine.
Dale
If you are wanting to push big power you will have big expenses as well.
Keep your power to around 400 (which is plenty) and you don't have to worry as much about stuff breaking and needing more exotic parts.
I would pass on the studs. Also you can do dual oil coolers later on, you don't have to do that now.
Read my rebuilding your engine thread, I have a post I did recently about the "while you are in there" trap.
I would also message Ihor at IR Performance on apex seals, I think he's used some I-Rotaries and also RX Parts, he does a lot more builds and may have some good feedback for you.
Really, get the engine back together, don't mess with anything external to the engine that doesn't need it, and do a smart build on the engine.
Dale
Keep your power to around 400 (which is plenty) and you don't have to worry as much about stuff breaking and needing more exotic parts.
I would pass on the studs. Also you can do dual oil coolers later on, you don't have to do that now.
Read my rebuilding your engine thread, I have a post I did recently about the "while you are in there" trap.
I would also message Ihor at IR Performance on apex seals, I think he's used some I-Rotaries and also RX Parts, he does a lot more builds and may have some good feedback for you.
Really, get the engine back together, don't mess with anything external to the engine that doesn't need it, and do a smart build on the engine.
Dale
I just called them. I think Paul was who I spoke to. He was very brief and I got the impression he didnt have the time. Net net, he said bar none, the iRotaries are the best but at my HP, I likely won't realize the full value. He says the got right in whereas the RXparts require more clearancing.
My plan right now is iRotary Seals, new housings, stud, and balance and clearance when it comes to the engine. Goal is 14psi still with headroom any accidental over boost (hopefully none) at ~400-420WHP. At this point, I want to build it "right" with plenty of buffer and hopefully not touch this again for many years/miles. On my first rebuild I feel like I made some decisions to save money that have come back to cost me more later ...
Last edited by Djseto; Dec 14, 2021 at 03:35 PM.