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I think that's the first time ever I've heard of a seal manufacturer weigh in on an issue before tear down. I don't understand how it could be a seal issue unless it was a batch issue though. How could all 6 seals go bad at the same exact time unless there was an event that triggered it?
I brought up batch issue as well but they don't have serial numbers so hard to track down that info if they wanted to. I'm with you...it's weird they all went but he said in other cases, cars have lost like 60psi during a dyno pull. I should have checked compression before we started. For all I know they were already going bad before the dyno but again, I have all the data to back it up and the data shows zero signs of any issue. Everything was good from fuel pressure to AFR to making sure I wasn't cutting fuel on decel. Nelson said my timing was largely the same as my prior motor +/- half a degree. Knock control also didn't show any issues either.
He called me after I sent him an email telling him of a possible issue that caused my failure but once he heard what happened, he was pretty sure I had the same issue that others have exerpienced. I can only hope it was just my seals and that throwing new ones in will get me back in business.
I believe in Mike's case when the apex seals were out they were bowed. So, if you have the seal in front of you, set it with the edge that would ride on the rotor housing face on the surface in front of you. Shine a light behind the seal. You will see light coming underneath the seal in the middle.
Thinking about it I'm wondering if they are fine at first, driving around and idling, but when you put load on them on the dyno and get them hot they expand outwards and bend in the middle. Or something with the metallurgy is funny where one part of the seal is a different metal than another or got a different heat treatment so it bows once it gets hot enough.
Regardless, I think this will be a relatively straight forward fix. I would definitely see how straight those seals are once they are out of the engine.
Per our phone convo last week, I can't put into words how bad I feel for your situation, but I also feel you need to get back to basics. Old school. For ~400rwhp goal, goopy seals, AI, premix mildly, and FFS let someone local tune it that doesn't lock tunes. Going to miss you @ DGRR bro, I'll grab your shirt again, lol.
Per our phone convo last week, I can't put into words how bad I feel for your situation, but I also feel you need to get back to basics. Old school. For ~400rwhp goal, goopy seals, AI, premix mildly, and FFS let someone local tune it that doesn't lock tunes. Going to miss you @ DGRR bro, I'll grab your shirt again, lol.
Let's see what the tear down shows but I'm not blaming Nelson for this. I shared his logs with another tuner who's response was "Nelson's tune is beautiful" from looking at the logs, specially his fueling and boost control curves. There is nothing I'd mess with in a tune anyways, so having it locked doesn't overly bother me. Tuning is an art in addition to being a science in my opinion. Bryan recommends Goopy, EJ or RA Super seals but I have been seeing here the RA's are hard on housings. RX Parts seems to be a popular choice too.
That being said, I test drove a 2019 Porsche 718 Boxster S today and I won't lie, it moved me in ways I didn't expect it it to. I damn near bought it. Even the wife loved it, but she would prefer the FD gone in general. She's tired of worrying if I'm gonna be stranded every time I drive or the amount of time tinkering with it takes away from her and the kids...and the 2 stroke smell after I drive it since I'm catless. I'm gonna see what the damage is when we crack the FD open, but joining Team Porsche is a real possibility. The handling was hands down better than anything I've driven and the I4 turbo engine was shockingly good. If I was gonna leave the FD world, that's not a bad direction to go but I am very emotionally (and financially) invested in this FD. #firstWorldProblems.
Get a high flow cat for the car. I don't understand why people put mid pipes on then wonder why their clothes stink. You aren't picking up THAT much flow in a mid pipe versus a high flow cat.
You are on the CUSP of having a solid car. You'll have to get the engine fixed to sell it or keep it regardless, do so and get it broken in/tuned then evaluate what you want to do.
Oh I know why it smells like two stroke. I do need to talk to my tuner to see how a cat would affect power. I have also heard EGT’s are pretty high that a non OEM FD like mine will likely ruin a cat which is why I also haven’t put one on. I don’t want to replace one every year…
Everytime I’m on the cusp of a “solid car”, something goes sideways. My car friends keep reminding me that if rotaries and RX7’s were reliable, Mazda would still be selling them. I know that’s not 100% true…but also not 100% not true…
The thought of having to break in the motor again is pretty disheartening. It was hard enough to get through the last break-in just to try and get ready for DGRR. I literally would get on the belt line around Raleigh and drive for an hour one or twice a weekend for almost 2 months.
The one time in life my wife says go buy a Porsche and I’m like “I need to think about it”. HAHA. Go figure…
I don't know if you'll really need to do a full break in. Basically you're just needing new apex seals, everything else is already broken in.
People bad mouth rotaries but other cars have their share of problems especially when you start modifying things. Blown head gaskets, bent rods, bent valves, jumped time, etc. etc. etc - piston engines have their share of problems too, many of which don't need a full engine removal and disassembly but it's a similar amount of work all said and done.
You've also had an uphill battle on this particular car since it sat so long and also having to un-do what the previous owner did to it.
My car has been DEAD reliable, been going to DGRR every year since 2010, never a single problem save for a bad tire valve stem. A lot of that is doing the work right and doing it carefully with the right parts which you are doing too, again you just got bit by new and untrusted tech (the iRotary seals).
I don't know if you'll really need to do a full break in. Basically you're just needing new apex seals, everything else is already broken in.
People bad mouth rotaries but other cars have their share of problems especially when you start modifying things. Blown head gaskets, bent rods, bent valves, jumped time, etc. etc. etc - piston engines have their share of problems too, many of which don't need a full engine removal and disassembly but it's a similar amount of work all said and done.
You've also had an uphill battle on this particular car since it sat so long and also having to un-do what the previous owner did to it.
My car has been DEAD reliable, been going to DGRR every year since 2010, never a single problem save for a bad tire valve stem. A lot of that is doing the work right and doing it carefully with the right parts which you are doing too, again you just got bit by new and untrusted tech (the iRotary seals).
Dale
I just saw a post on Instagram of someone who blew up his GR86 >5,000 miles. Toyota tech's came out to inspect the computer + engine to see if it fit the factory + extended warranty the owner purchased, and they declined it. Some digging, because of how concerning that sounds, and it looks like the owner did a full send on the engine without ever changing the oil or allowing for the break-in period to set in. Probably redlined it a lot too, and expected it be fully covered under warranty and is projecting the car as a lemon and/or unreliable.
Point being, a lot of it comes down to bad owners most of the time I am guessing. Local rotary guy I am getting work done from basically said he has never personally seen a rotary engine ever blow on him and agrees it's reliable if built right, and taken care of.
I believe in Mike's case when the apex seals were out they were bowed. So, if you have the seal in front of you, set it with the edge that would ride on the rotor housing face on the surface in front of you. Shine a light behind the seal. You will see light coming underneath the seal in the middle.
Thinking about it I'm wondering if they are fine at first, driving around and idling, but when you put load on them on the dyno and get them hot they expand outwards and bend in the middle. Or something with the metallurgy is funny where one part of the seal is a different metal than another or got a different heat treatment so it bows once it gets hot enough.
Regardless, I think this will be a relatively straight forward fix. I would definitely see how straight those seals are once they are out of the engine.
Dale
Dale is correct. Iannetti has my seals and he looked at them before he called me and it was a very similar phone call to yours Andrew.
I used my aggravation over this as motivation to get the engine out and over to dale for a re-re-build as quickly as possible.I knew it was just a very labor intensive fix to have a solid running car again. Yes it sucks, but my FD took two years to get running right and two engines. Had a lot of oem wiring problems from previous owners, alot of "since I'm here, I'll also do these 10 other things...." waited on parts for a long time. The FD isn't an instant gratification car, and that's what makes driving it, as opposed to any thing you can buy out of a showroom that much more satisfying. TBH... if you can afford both, get both, but also just remember anything that's still in production will have a different level of satisfaction over the FD. You're driving irreplaceable history in an Rx7.
Keeping the FD but picked up this beauty. 2019 Boxster GTS. 5128 miles. Certified Pre Owned. Fully warrantied until 12/25 with no mileage limit. Previous owner prepaid the first 4 years of maintenance. He also installed a $3k laser jammer system and put his Porsche branded car cover in the trunk.
The FD handles well but this car is on another planet. Unfortunately my 14 year old dog isn’t doing well so I’m not gonna be able to come to DGRR even though I wanted to go.
I’m a little worried I won’t want to drive the FD whenever I ever get it fixed.
The next time I get angry with my car I'm going to go buy a $90k Porsche. I think if everyone executed that plan we'd have a lot more happy FD owners. :P
Beautiful car and congratulations on the purchase. I know you will enjoy it.
Beautiful Porsche. They are a completely different animal, that is for sure from the FD. I had a 996 Turbo. I loved it, minus the interior styling. I still plan to buy another Porsche in the future.
But, trust me, you'll still want to drive the FD. After owning 50 some odd cars, nothing drives or feels like them.
Went down to see my motor pulled. The housings look good but every one of my seals is warped. EVERY ONE. Attached is an example of two put back to back. You can see the gap in between. Currently have no answers from anyone. Going to replace them with cryo treated RA Superseals per Bryan's recommendation.
I run RA Superseals, pre mix 1.3 no OMP, boost juice medium injector,.
Have you ever tried NGK R6725? 9 and 10.5 worked for me at 14 - 16 psi 400rwhp.
Some people dont like RA , but I never had any problem related with the RA seals.
I have also solid corner seals sold by RA Seals.
Good so far and no flodding issues..I am realy happy with this set up I have now.
OEM seals don’t give you much wiggle room in HP and Boost range im at. They will work but I’d be one lean condition away from them likely shattering. My previous build used them
OEM seals don’t give you much wiggle room in HP and Boost range im at. They will work but I’d be one lean condition away from them likely shattering. My previous build used them
Not sure I agree with that. More like it's all in the fuel quality and octane used. And the tune, and the engine build quality.
To answer the OP's question, my brother has been running BNR Stage 3s sequentially for many years with an engine I ported and built for him running OEM two piece apex seals.
He's put it through the ringer, running 14 psi typically but tuning as high as 18 psi on the street with 93 octane and an AEM system injecting wiper fluid. We've also done double duty on the road course (NJMP), with two days of five 30 minute sessions of hot lapping each (both beginner and intermediate groups)...... that's about ten hours of nonstop hard running over a weekend.
