DJSETO - My '93 FD Build Thread
Skip the studs and balance/clearance. I don't think you will get any advantages there. If you don't have a water/meth injection setup, put money towards that.
Again it's about spending money SMART.
I would also say it could be worth running lower boost on track.
Dale
Again it's about spending money SMART.
I would also say it could be worth running lower boost on track.
Dale
Adding AI? That's another failure point and system to maintain. I'd use modern tech and practices to my advantages to avoid that.
If you've got a modern ecu, a failure in an AI system component can be accounted for. Which, if you think about it, isn't that basically a use-case example of the leveraging "modern tech and practices to one's advantage" like you mention?
I don't recommend tuning for a water/meth system, just get a mild setup like the AEM setup. If it fails the car will just run as fine as it ever did but you won't see the lower intake temps.
I've been running an AEM setup for probably 10 years now and have had zero problems with it. Works awesome. I do have an LED that it's wired to, if the water level gets low it will blink and it also comes on solid when it's injecting. It will blink error codes too if something is funny. But, again, it's been rock solid.
Having that extra cooling makes a BIG difference IMHO, heat is what causes detonation, if you can keep that in check you are doing great. It also helps reduce carbon on the engine which is another big plus.
IMHO any modified FD should have a basic water injection setup. I just have mine pulling from my stock washer fluid tank and I inject plain blue washer fluid.
Dale
I've been running an AEM setup for probably 10 years now and have had zero problems with it. Works awesome. I do have an LED that it's wired to, if the water level gets low it will blink and it also comes on solid when it's injecting. It will blink error codes too if something is funny. But, again, it's been rock solid.
Having that extra cooling makes a BIG difference IMHO, heat is what causes detonation, if you can keep that in check you are doing great. It also helps reduce carbon on the engine which is another big plus.
IMHO any modified FD should have a basic water injection setup. I just have mine pulling from my stock washer fluid tank and I inject plain blue washer fluid.
Dale
I don't recommend tuning for a water/meth system, just get a mild setup like the AEM setup. If it fails the car will just run as fine as it ever did but you won't see the lower intake temps.
I've been running an AEM setup for probably 10 years now and have had zero problems with it. Works awesome. I do have an LED that it's wired to, if the water level gets low it will blink and it also comes on solid when it's injecting. It will blink error codes too if something is funny. But, again, it's been rock solid.
Having that extra cooling makes a BIG difference IMHO, heat is what causes detonation, if you can keep that in check you are doing great. It also helps reduce carbon on the engine which is another big plus.
IMHO any modified FD should have a basic water injection setup. I just have mine pulling from my stock washer fluid tank and I inject plain blue washer fluid.
Dale
I've been running an AEM setup for probably 10 years now and have had zero problems with it. Works awesome. I do have an LED that it's wired to, if the water level gets low it will blink and it also comes on solid when it's injecting. It will blink error codes too if something is funny. But, again, it's been rock solid.
Having that extra cooling makes a BIG difference IMHO, heat is what causes detonation, if you can keep that in check you are doing great. It also helps reduce carbon on the engine which is another big plus.
IMHO any modified FD should have a basic water injection setup. I just have mine pulling from my stock washer fluid tank and I inject plain blue washer fluid.
Dale
Think I read in the original post DJSETO has a water/meth system. It gets 105-110 in the peak during our summers here in the central valley, and even with a v-mount, I think this will really be beneficial on top of ceramic coating the cold pipe+downpipe. Like the idea of using it as a buffer rather than tuning for it. Tuning for it will probably allow you to squeeze more power out of the car, but makes more sense to have it as a backup for my application as a safe, reliable and fun build.
The track is kinda where I need the boost the most. Street driving, I almost never hit 14psi. Turning it down at the track seems counterintutive as that's where I want max performance. I'm not setting lap records but I do want to still get my personal bests.
Think I read in the original post DJSETO has a water/meth system. It gets 105-110 in the peak during our summers here in the central valley, and even with a v-mount, I think this will really be beneficial on top of ceramic coating the cold pipe+downpipe. Like the idea of using it as a buffer rather than tuning for it. Tuning for it will probably allow you to squeeze more power out of the car, but makes more sense to have it as a backup for my application as a safe, reliable and fun build.
think it requires minor fab work and could probably be DIY’d. SBG has a tutorial if you Google their kit on how to install it and what you’ll need.
as for the stoichiometric information on tuning and all that, my guess is as good as yours.
Edit:
https://www.rx7club.com/group-buy-pr...ispreloading=1
Since we're both from the US and have US FD's, we will likely have to just take plunge and get an upgraded tank for quality of life, safety and minimizing starvation. (Unless someone can argue otherwise).
Last edited by Jatt; Dec 15, 2021 at 11:54 PM.
Just get the AEM kit.
The Sakebomb tank is super nice but it's crazy overkill. Unless you are injecting a TON of water. I use my washer fluid tank and I can do a full trip to Deal's Gap and back without even coming close to draining it.
The AEM controller is stupid easy to setup. You set your minimum boost for injecting and the max boost. It will start at the minimum and ramp up duty cycle to the maximum. Really it's pretty much set and forget. It has an output wire that will ground for an error condition, you could use that as an input to the Haltech. I have mine wired into my boost controller, when the washer tank is empty it basically shuts off the boost controller.
If you don't want to use the washer tank AEM sells various tanks that you can find a spot for. Adding a level sensor to the OEM washer tank is kind of a chore, I did it on mine and it's been working great and reliable but it took time and planning.
As far as track time, I can't speak too much on that since I've not been on a track. But IMHO water injection would help a great deal, you build up a lot of heat on the track and the WI system will help keep that reasonable. You may have to fill the tank up more than you would on the street, but it also depends on how much time you are doing on track - a half hour, 10 minutes, a 24-hour enduro....
Dale
The Sakebomb tank is super nice but it's crazy overkill. Unless you are injecting a TON of water. I use my washer fluid tank and I can do a full trip to Deal's Gap and back without even coming close to draining it.
The AEM controller is stupid easy to setup. You set your minimum boost for injecting and the max boost. It will start at the minimum and ramp up duty cycle to the maximum. Really it's pretty much set and forget. It has an output wire that will ground for an error condition, you could use that as an input to the Haltech. I have mine wired into my boost controller, when the washer tank is empty it basically shuts off the boost controller.
If you don't want to use the washer tank AEM sells various tanks that you can find a spot for. Adding a level sensor to the OEM washer tank is kind of a chore, I did it on mine and it's been working great and reliable but it took time and planning.
As far as track time, I can't speak too much on that since I've not been on a track. But IMHO water injection would help a great deal, you build up a lot of heat on the track and the WI system will help keep that reasonable. You may have to fill the tank up more than you would on the street, but it also depends on how much time you are doing on track - a half hour, 10 minutes, a 24-hour enduro....
Dale
I go back and forth on injection. I run a Haltech with failsafes programmed in. If my intake temps get too high, the car will go into "limp" mode to protect me. If I were still running my Apexi PFC, I'd definitely add AI.
Having talked to some people who track their cars, I decided to go with balance and clearance the rotating mass as well as ARP studs. Combined it was just under $1000. Seeing as it costs $1700 just to pull and reinstall the motor (yes, it's free if I DIY), this seemed like a worthwhile investment. 90% of the time it's overkill but for 4-8 days a year, my FD engine is gonna get pushed a harder than it will ever get on the street (by a lot) and that's when I need some buffer the most.
f I didnt see any track time, I would have passed but I've reach the point where I'd rather overbuild and give myself a little headroom than possibly have to do this dance again. By all accounts, the iRotary seals should have zero issues handling 14psi and ~400WHP. OEM seals may have sufficed but one lean condition could blow them up whereas the these should hold up. I'll likely need to premix more (~1-1.5oz per gallon with OMP) but premix is still cheaper than a rebuild.
I also think since I've got the motor out, I should do a lightweight flywheel and counterweight...
If this motor goes again, this car is getting sold, I'm wiping my hands clean, and getting a 911.
Having talked to some people who track their cars, I decided to go with balance and clearance the rotating mass as well as ARP studs. Combined it was just under $1000. Seeing as it costs $1700 just to pull and reinstall the motor (yes, it's free if I DIY), this seemed like a worthwhile investment. 90% of the time it's overkill but for 4-8 days a year, my FD engine is gonna get pushed a harder than it will ever get on the street (by a lot) and that's when I need some buffer the most.
f I didnt see any track time, I would have passed but I've reach the point where I'd rather overbuild and give myself a little headroom than possibly have to do this dance again. By all accounts, the iRotary seals should have zero issues handling 14psi and ~400WHP. OEM seals may have sufficed but one lean condition could blow them up whereas the these should hold up. I'll likely need to premix more (~1-1.5oz per gallon with OMP) but premix is still cheaper than a rebuild.
I also think since I've got the motor out, I should do a lightweight flywheel and counterweight...
If this motor goes again, this car is getting sold, I'm wiping my hands clean, and getting a 911.
Just get the AEM kit.
The Sakebomb tank is super nice but it's crazy overkill. Unless you are injecting a TON of water. I use my washer fluid tank and I can do a full trip to Deal's Gap and back without even coming close to draining it.
As far as track time, I can't speak too much on that since I've not been on a track. But IMHO water injection would help a great deal, you build up a lot of heat on the track and the WI system will help keep that reasonable. You may have to fill the tank up more than you would on the street, but it also depends on how much time you are doing on track - a half hour, 10 minutes, a 24-hour enduro....
Dale
The Sakebomb tank is super nice but it's crazy overkill. Unless you are injecting a TON of water. I use my washer fluid tank and I can do a full trip to Deal's Gap and back without even coming close to draining it.
As far as track time, I can't speak too much on that since I've not been on a track. But IMHO water injection would help a great deal, you build up a lot of heat on the track and the WI system will help keep that reasonable. You may have to fill the tank up more than you would on the street, but it also depends on how much time you are doing on track - a half hour, 10 minutes, a 24-hour enduro....
Dale
Nope I use blue washer fluid. It has a little bit of meth in it that helps cool things down better and is also freeze resistant to some extent. Of course we haven't had a hard freeze in Pensacola in years 
.
The blue washer fluid they sell around here is typically 0 degree F. The lower the number the more meth it has, but that could be more corrosive. Personally I haven't had any problems with my throttle body or anything from running blue washer fluid, some have posted problems but I think they were in colder climates where they have lower temp rated washer fluid.
Dale
.The blue washer fluid they sell around here is typically 0 degree F. The lower the number the more meth it has, but that could be more corrosive. Personally I haven't had any problems with my throttle body or anything from running blue washer fluid, some have posted problems but I think they were in colder climates where they have lower temp rated washer fluid.
Dale
I go back and forth on injection. I run a Haltech with failsafes programmed in. If my intake temps get too high, the car will go into "limp" mode to protect me. If I were still running my Apexi PFC, I'd definitely add AI.
Having talked to some people who track their cars, I decided to go with balance and clearance the rotating mass as well as ARP studs. Combined it was just under $1000. Seeing as it costs $1700 just to pull and reinstall the motor (yes, it's free if I DIY), this seemed like a worthwhile investment. 90% of the time it's overkill but for 4-8 days a year, my FD engine is gonna get pushed a harder than it will ever get on the street (by a lot) and that's when I need some buffer the most.
f I didnt see any track time, I would have passed but I've reach the point where I'd rather overbuild and give myself a little headroom than possibly have to do this dance again. By all accounts, the iRotary seals should have zero issues handling 14psi and ~400WHP. OEM seals may have sufficed but one lean condition could blow them up whereas the these should hold up. I'll likely need to premix more (~1-1.5oz per gallon with OMP) but premix is still cheaper than a rebuild.
I also think since I've got the motor out, I should do a lightweight flywheel and counterweight...
If this motor goes again, this car is getting sold, I'm wiping my hands clean, and getting a 911.
Having talked to some people who track their cars, I decided to go with balance and clearance the rotating mass as well as ARP studs. Combined it was just under $1000. Seeing as it costs $1700 just to pull and reinstall the motor (yes, it's free if I DIY), this seemed like a worthwhile investment. 90% of the time it's overkill but for 4-8 days a year, my FD engine is gonna get pushed a harder than it will ever get on the street (by a lot) and that's when I need some buffer the most.
f I didnt see any track time, I would have passed but I've reach the point where I'd rather overbuild and give myself a little headroom than possibly have to do this dance again. By all accounts, the iRotary seals should have zero issues handling 14psi and ~400WHP. OEM seals may have sufficed but one lean condition could blow them up whereas the these should hold up. I'll likely need to premix more (~1-1.5oz per gallon with OMP) but premix is still cheaper than a rebuild.
I also think since I've got the motor out, I should do a lightweight flywheel and counterweight...
If this motor goes again, this car is getting sold, I'm wiping my hands clean, and getting a 911.
Anthony you know how I feel about AI. Got to agree with others and disagree with Bryan on this one. I run Snow boost juice out of my drilled and tapped washer fluid tank, injected at the elbow with a #7 nozzle and a snow vc-50 guage/controller. I had 2 aem controllers fail. One strong vote against AEM. Also I think a lot of guys run a lower boost setting at the track for heat control and longevity reasons. If I ever make it to a full course track day, I'll definitely be turning down the boost a bit. And getting the big sakebomb tank.
Last edited by aplscrambles; Dec 17, 2021 at 08:05 AM.
Just get the AEM kit.
The Sakebomb tank is super nice but it's crazy overkill. Unless you are injecting a TON of water. I use my washer fluid tank and I can do a full trip to Deal's Gap and back without even coming close to draining it.
The AEM controller is stupid easy to setup. You set your minimum boost for injecting and the max boost. It will start at the minimum and ramp up duty cycle to the maximum. Really it's pretty much set and forget. It has an output wire that will ground for an error condition, you could use that as an input to the Haltech. I have mine wired into my boost controller, when the washer tank is empty it basically shuts off the boost controller.
If you don't want to use the washer tank AEM sells various tanks that you can find a spot for. Adding a level sensor to the OEM washer tank is kind of a chore, I did it on mine and it's been working great and reliable but it took time and planning.
As far as track time, I can't speak too much on that since I've not been on a track. But IMHO water injection would help a great deal, you build up a lot of heat on the track and the WI system will help keep that reasonable. You may have to fill the tank up more than you would on the street, but it also depends on how much time you are doing on track - a half hour, 10 minutes, a 24-hour enduro....
Dale
The Sakebomb tank is super nice but it's crazy overkill. Unless you are injecting a TON of water. I use my washer fluid tank and I can do a full trip to Deal's Gap and back without even coming close to draining it.
The AEM controller is stupid easy to setup. You set your minimum boost for injecting and the max boost. It will start at the minimum and ramp up duty cycle to the maximum. Really it's pretty much set and forget. It has an output wire that will ground for an error condition, you could use that as an input to the Haltech. I have mine wired into my boost controller, when the washer tank is empty it basically shuts off the boost controller.
If you don't want to use the washer tank AEM sells various tanks that you can find a spot for. Adding a level sensor to the OEM washer tank is kind of a chore, I did it on mine and it's been working great and reliable but it took time and planning.
As far as track time, I can't speak too much on that since I've not been on a track. But IMHO water injection would help a great deal, you build up a lot of heat on the track and the WI system will help keep that reasonable. You may have to fill the tank up more than you would on the street, but it also depends on how much time you are doing on track - a half hour, 10 minutes, a 24-hour enduro....
Dale
I'm sure it is - the level does go down, I can see air inlet temps drop like a rock when it hits, and I do use the test feature every now and again to check it out.
I spent a lot of time making sure all the wiring was well-done and happy when doing the install. Not saying you didn't but I think in general that gets a lot of people.
I have had one time where the hose to the nozzle came off (mainly my fault) and it went through the water SUPER quick. Any external leaks will eat water big time.
I really don't know the sizes of the jets I have. I know the one at the turbo inlet is SUPER small and I have a medium-ish jet on the TB elbow, it's one that came with the kit. I have it set to spray around 8psi with full spray at 14.
Dale
I spent a lot of time making sure all the wiring was well-done and happy when doing the install. Not saying you didn't but I think in general that gets a lot of people.
I have had one time where the hose to the nozzle came off (mainly my fault) and it went through the water SUPER quick. Any external leaks will eat water big time.
I really don't know the sizes of the jets I have. I know the one at the turbo inlet is SUPER small and I have a medium-ish jet on the TB elbow, it's one that came with the kit. I have it set to spray around 8psi with full spray at 14.
Dale
Dale, are you saying you have your AI system setup to inject water at two different points simultaneously? One nozzle on the turbo inlet and one on the elbow? Just want to check if I'm reading you right; never heard of someone setting theirs up like that before.
Yep. It's super simple - the pump has a tee off of it, one line goes to the pre-turbo, one goes to the TB elbow.
My friend Jimmy experimented with this and tried it out with great results. Drops temps like a rock.
Dale
My friend Jimmy experimented with this and tried it out with great results. Drops temps like a rock.
Dale
Nice find. That is some great info. I found the nozzle sizing portion of the video pretty informative, and surprising too. DJseto can confirm he saw my car on the dyno go from 420 to 385 peak when we turned the meth on, at the same given boost, timing, tuning level.
This was my tuners thoughts on AI
” The water meth injection does add an extra layer of protection and extra cushion , however at the cost of usually a 7% power loss , although it does drop down the air temp... the loss has to do with the slower burn rate along with some water droplets not atomizing 100% in some cases which can weaken the spark . , the 7% power loss can be offset by increasing the boost and advancing the timing and this is when the injection kit can generate more power than without water/meth injection . Also a meth flow sensor must be installed to have the ecu make this map changes only when meth injection is detected which can have different time delays during gear shifts depending on load and gear .
Lastly , although water/meth injection is a viable bandage for better octane fuel , it does have its drawbacks and can do funky things during open/close/open throttle situations with road race cars , it is most commonly used with street/drag racing type cars , Rally & drift cars do also use the system but with water only in which case there are no changes to the map and it is mainly use to help an overwhelmed intercooler . “
” The water meth injection does add an extra layer of protection and extra cushion , however at the cost of usually a 7% power loss , although it does drop down the air temp... the loss has to do with the slower burn rate along with some water droplets not atomizing 100% in some cases which can weaken the spark . , the 7% power loss can be offset by increasing the boost and advancing the timing and this is when the injection kit can generate more power than without water/meth injection . Also a meth flow sensor must be installed to have the ecu make this map changes only when meth injection is detected which can have different time delays during gear shifts depending on load and gear .
Lastly , although water/meth injection is a viable bandage for better octane fuel , it does have its drawbacks and can do funky things during open/close/open throttle situations with road race cars , it is most commonly used with street/drag racing type cars , Rally & drift cars do also use the system but with water only in which case there are no changes to the map and it is mainly use to help an overwhelmed intercooler . “
This was my tuners thoughts on AI
” The water meth injection does add an extra layer of protection and extra cushion , however at the cost of usually a 7% power loss , although it does drop down the air temp... the loss has to do with the slower burn rate along with some water droplets not atomizing 100% in some cases which can weaken the spark . , the 7% power loss can be offset by increasing the boost and advancing the timing and this is when the injection kit can generate more power than without water/meth injection . Also a meth flow sensor must be installed to have the ecu make this map changes only when meth injection is detected which can have different time delays during gear shifts depending on load and gear .
Lastly , although water/meth injection is a viable bandage for better octane fuel , it does have its drawbacks and can do funky things during open/close/open throttle situations with road race cars , it is most commonly used with street/drag racing type cars , Rally & drift cars do also use the system but with water only in which case there are no changes to the map and it is mainly use to help an overwhelmed intercooler . “
” The water meth injection does add an extra layer of protection and extra cushion , however at the cost of usually a 7% power loss , although it does drop down the air temp... the loss has to do with the slower burn rate along with some water droplets not atomizing 100% in some cases which can weaken the spark . , the 7% power loss can be offset by increasing the boost and advancing the timing and this is when the injection kit can generate more power than without water/meth injection . Also a meth flow sensor must be installed to have the ecu make this map changes only when meth injection is detected which can have different time delays during gear shifts depending on load and gear .
Lastly , although water/meth injection is a viable bandage for better octane fuel , it does have its drawbacks and can do funky things during open/close/open throttle situations with road race cars , it is most commonly used with street/drag racing type cars , Rally & drift cars do also use the system but with water only in which case there are no changes to the map and it is mainly use to help an overwhelmed intercooler . “
I'm going to really see whether it's worth it for my power goals and with the Greddy V-Mount. I can always install it later on if need be, the peak of our summers in the Central Valley get to 105-110 for 1-3 weeks. Will talk to whoever ends up tuning my car.
A good video here. Conclusion here is it shows you'll lose a significant amount of power if you install it, even with 50-50, without a tune. Good food for thought.
https://youtu.be/nGTqpMUfuZM
https://youtu.be/nGTqpMUfuZM
The amount of water being sprayed from the nozzle, pump pressure, intercooler efficiency....these all play a big role. They are also running on E85 which changes the game a LOT.
They have a HUGE intercooler, a very efficient turbo, and a fuel that naturally cools things down in the combustion chamber big time. This is NOT a street car either. On that setup they would get very little benefit.
Do I have a dyno to back up what I'm saying? No. But in every day, seat of the pants driving, it makes a nice difference with my setup on a street car with regular 93 octane. I don't notice a power drop, I notice the car running better and I find that the car runs on a hot day more like it's a cool day outside and I see my intake temps on my PFC Commander drop like a rock when I get on boost and the injection is running.
Keeping combustion chamber temps down is the #1 way to prevent detonation. Detonation is from hot spots in the engine. It can also happen from hot spots on carbon deposits on the rotors, which AI helps clean away. A friend of mine here in town rebuilt his engine after it running with water injection for years, he had to give the rotors a spray of brake clean and a wipe with a rag to make clean, not go through a thick layer of carbon.
If you don't want to take my advice that's fine. I'm telling you, a mild water injection setup like AEM's makes a noticeable difference and will help keep your engine happier longer. Personally I don't notice any difference in power though there may be some but I'll take that to keep my engine happy.
Dale