Results of adding an IC to AI only cars
08-31-09, 02:57 PM
#1
Results of adding an IC to AI only cars
First off I only took the inter-coolers off a few cars here because they were running stock units or stock location medium upgrades, which don't work worth a damn when its 100+ outside here in Arizona.
On Cozmo Kraemer's car I got rid of his Pettit medium stock location upgrade in favor of both pre and post compressor water only injection. With the aquamist HSF-5 system intake temps were so low there was no need for THAT intercooler. It blocked the radiator, hurt throttle/boost response etc. It worked for that car, he went to a dyno session over in CA and he told me every othercar had overheating problems from doing consecutive 4th gear pulls. His car never changed temperatures. That was 57trim To4E running 15psi.
It worked on his car so I deleted the stock top mount on Stylemon's car, also running the same turbo.
Later on I moved up to a Gt35R P trim combo on another car with no IC. This car ran 100% methanol pre and post compressor. As soon as I turned the boost up to 18psi it was getting harder and harder to keep intake temps under control doing multiply 4th gear pulls on the dyno. I saw 155 F after two pulls in a row.
Recently I put a FMIC only on a car with an ambient air intake and those temps in these 100 degree days were still in the 134+ range at 11psi, and coolant temps in the 209 range doing multiply 4th gear pulls( upgraded radiator too).
Then I did a couple more FDs with stock location upgrades with water only injection and it seemed to work pretty well.
Fast forward to this weekend. I put a NPR intercooler in a FMIC~ish location on Stylemon's car. Switched to 50/50 water alcohol instead of pure methanol, and 500cc post intercooler( as opposed to about 2000CC previsouly of methanol). At 10psi the discharge temp on the turbo is 80C( ambient air intake also) and 13C at the throttle body on a 100+ degree day.
I have a bung put in for pre-compressor injection only too, its just not used. I put on coolingmists new outside mount injectors and wanted to give them a shot before switching both over.
We are going to move up to 20+psi after adding the pre compressor jet with a new set of colder plugs and see how it does.
I know this isn't anything new, this has been around for a very long time. Just thought I would share that using an good intercooler, with decent airflow in-conjunction with some sort of AI is the way to go. Chances are water only injection pre & post compressor with a good FMIC and ambient air intake is the most efficient setup.
On Cozmo Kraemer's car I got rid of his Pettit medium stock location upgrade in favor of both pre and post compressor water only injection. With the aquamist HSF-5 system intake temps were so low there was no need for THAT intercooler. It blocked the radiator, hurt throttle/boost response etc. It worked for that car, he went to a dyno session over in CA and he told me every othercar had overheating problems from doing consecutive 4th gear pulls. His car never changed temperatures. That was 57trim To4E running 15psi.
It worked on his car so I deleted the stock top mount on Stylemon's car, also running the same turbo.
Later on I moved up to a Gt35R P trim combo on another car with no IC. This car ran 100% methanol pre and post compressor. As soon as I turned the boost up to 18psi it was getting harder and harder to keep intake temps under control doing multiply 4th gear pulls on the dyno. I saw 155 F after two pulls in a row.
Recently I put a FMIC only on a car with an ambient air intake and those temps in these 100 degree days were still in the 134+ range at 11psi, and coolant temps in the 209 range doing multiply 4th gear pulls( upgraded radiator too).
Then I did a couple more FDs with stock location upgrades with water only injection and it seemed to work pretty well.
Fast forward to this weekend. I put a NPR intercooler in a FMIC~ish location on Stylemon's car. Switched to 50/50 water alcohol instead of pure methanol, and 500cc post intercooler( as opposed to about 2000CC previsouly of methanol). At 10psi the discharge temp on the turbo is 80C( ambient air intake also) and 13C at the throttle body on a 100+ degree day.
I have a bung put in for pre-compressor injection only too, its just not used. I put on coolingmists new outside mount injectors and wanted to give them a shot before switching both over.
We are going to move up to 20+psi after adding the pre compressor jet with a new set of colder plugs and see how it does.
I know this isn't anything new, this has been around for a very long time. Just thought I would share that using an good intercooler, with decent airflow in-conjunction with some sort of AI is the way to go. Chances are water only injection pre & post compressor with a good FMIC and ambient air intake is the most efficient setup.
08-31-09, 05:14 PM
#3
There is no pre-turbo hooked up. The 80C to 13C drop is from the intercooler plus 500cc post intercooler 50/50 @ 150psi.
What I want to do is get the car tuned, do no AI, pre turbo only, post intercooler only, then every thing together.. Should be fun
What I want to do is get the car tuned, do no AI, pre turbo only, post intercooler only, then every thing together.. Should be fun
09-01-09, 11:08 AM
#6
Its an open air element unit, Gm style right at the throttle body inlet.
We did a bunch of tuning last night. 38C ambient, 15psi 4th gear pulls.
At the beginning of each pull the inlet temperature on the throttle body was 40C. The outlet temperature on the turbo was 55-60C. At the end of 4th gear the outlet temp on the turbo was 100-110C. Temperature at the throttle body stayed a very consistent 25C.
Car is obviously a lot faster as we used to be at 50C during the pulls without the inter-cooler..
We did a bunch of tuning last night. 38C ambient, 15psi 4th gear pulls.
At the beginning of each pull the inlet temperature on the throttle body was 40C. The outlet temperature on the turbo was 55-60C. At the end of 4th gear the outlet temp on the turbo was 100-110C. Temperature at the throttle body stayed a very consistent 25C.
Car is obviously a lot faster as we used to be at 50C during the pulls without the inter-cooler..
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09-01-09, 03:09 PM
#8
Just running through 4th gear from 3k rpms up.
We did two right in a row to see if there was an increase and the only thing I saw was the discharge temp on the turbo went up to 120C on the end of the run, intake still at 25C.
Refresh my memory with your setup; what turbo/psi, intercooler, intake setup, outside air temp etc...
We did two right in a row to see if there was an increase and the only thing I saw was the discharge temp on the turbo went up to 120C on the end of the run, intake still at 25C.
Refresh my memory with your setup; what turbo/psi, intercooler, intake setup, outside air temp etc...
09-01-09, 08:06 PM
#10
Where is your air filter located? Is this a ebay intercooler? I am pretty sure the NPR is a garrett core. I have used those ebay intercoolers, and they don't work as well...
You have the swirler piece installed inside the nozzel right? I have seen people leave those out and its not a mist just a straight shot, which doesn't do much...
You have the swirler piece installed inside the nozzel right? I have seen people leave those out and its not a mist just a straight shot, which doesn't do much...
09-02-09, 09:49 AM
#11
Ya, that was a fun tuning night. I've been threatening to go to an intercooler + AI set up for a while and I finally did it. I am very happy so far.
The boost is so much more predictable. I can actually control boost with my foot, and it comes on smooth.
the intake temps are consistent in and out of boost. I was having a hard time getting decent cruising AITs, and that was a little frustrating here in AZ summers. Now they are resting at about ambient out of boost.
I did loose 5 psi by going with an intercooler, so now I'll have to figure out if my boost controller will work.
I can't wait to get that pre-compressor nozzle!!!!!!! Hold On!!
The boost is so much more predictable. I can actually control boost with my foot, and it comes on smooth.
the intake temps are consistent in and out of boost. I was having a hard time getting decent cruising AITs, and that was a little frustrating here in AZ summers. Now they are resting at about ambient out of boost.
I did loose 5 psi by going with an intercooler, so now I'll have to figure out if my boost controller will work.
I can't wait to get that pre-compressor nozzle!!!!!!! Hold On!!
09-02-09, 05:24 PM
#12
Performance Veteran...
09-03-09, 02:18 AM
#14
Awesome information. I like reading tests like this. All my favorite add-ons rolled into nice back to back tests. Single turbo, aux injection, and fast reacting sensors. I look forward to hearing the difference preturbo makes, as well as straight water vs 50/50.
I have an ebay core 12x24x3 1/2, 600 cc water preturbo, 23 psi boost pressure, & cold air intake, I haven't really payed real close attention to the temps since the fast sensor was installed but I would say my temps are somewhere around 10* F above ambient.
Also keep in mind sensor placement will have an effect on the temps that the sensor reads, the throttle body elbow runs cooler then the stock location, but the air going to the engine would still be warmer.
I have an ebay core 12x24x3 1/2, 600 cc water preturbo, 23 psi boost pressure, & cold air intake, I haven't really payed real close attention to the temps since the fast sensor was installed but I would say my temps are somewhere around 10* F above ambient.
Also keep in mind sensor placement will have an effect on the temps that the sensor reads, the throttle body elbow runs cooler then the stock location, but the air going to the engine would still be warmer.
09-03-09, 07:28 PM
#15
600cc preturbo that is WAY too much. I generally run an M1 injector pre-turbo. I have killed 4 T4 turbos figuring that out.
Anyhow I finished two more Rx-7s in the past two days...
First FD is on stock twins at 11.6 PSI. For the last year + it has been running water only 1 M1 injector pre-turbo with an ambient air intake and a blitz stock mount with OEM duct work.
Car would generally run in the 60s/70s for intake temps here in the summer time at the track.
I recently added a 500CC injector post-compressor and switched to 50/50 mix. After the car has been running for about a 30 hour and a little boosting the intake temps are 40-44C. If I give it 7~ish psi the temps will drop about 2C after a complete 3rd gear run. If I run 1st/2nd/3RD at 11.6psi intake temps will remain the same. If the car heatsoaks about 56C then the temps will raise 2C. To get he car to heatsoak to those temps it has to be run for and shutoff and completely heat soaked. It has the stock hood too. I have modified the stock AIT and its in stock location, same for the following car.
Next car runs an apexi Rx6 turbo. Very similiar in size to stylemon's 57 trim. This car has an XS stock mount intercooler, no ducting, vented hood, turbo blanket, lim heatshield. Intake is still in the engine bay, sees small amounts of outside air( shielded). Its very close to the above car. However it runs the nicest aquamist jets( right side of the picture). The other cars are running coolingmists stuff.Temps will remain the same if under 55C, if about they will raise. This car on average runs 10C hotter than above car; I believe its the duct work to the IC. We are planning on adding a fmic after sevenstock.
Real key here is having a FMIC in addition to the water/methanol, regardless of mixtures or pre/post turbo...
Anyhow I finished two more Rx-7s in the past two days...
First FD is on stock twins at 11.6 PSI. For the last year + it has been running water only 1 M1 injector pre-turbo with an ambient air intake and a blitz stock mount with OEM duct work.
Car would generally run in the 60s/70s for intake temps here in the summer time at the track.
I recently added a 500CC injector post-compressor and switched to 50/50 mix. After the car has been running for about a 30 hour and a little boosting the intake temps are 40-44C. If I give it 7~ish psi the temps will drop about 2C after a complete 3rd gear run. If I run 1st/2nd/3RD at 11.6psi intake temps will remain the same. If the car heatsoaks about 56C then the temps will raise 2C. To get he car to heatsoak to those temps it has to be run for and shutoff and completely heat soaked. It has the stock hood too. I have modified the stock AIT and its in stock location, same for the following car.
Next car runs an apexi Rx6 turbo. Very similiar in size to stylemon's 57 trim. This car has an XS stock mount intercooler, no ducting, vented hood, turbo blanket, lim heatshield. Intake is still in the engine bay, sees small amounts of outside air( shielded). Its very close to the above car. However it runs the nicest aquamist jets( right side of the picture). The other cars are running coolingmists stuff.Temps will remain the same if under 55C, if about they will raise. This car on average runs 10C hotter than above car; I believe its the duct work to the IC. We are planning on adding a fmic after sevenstock.
Real key here is having a FMIC in addition to the water/methanol, regardless of mixtures or pre/post turbo...
09-03-09, 08:00 PM
#16
Rubish, 600cc is fine preturbo. Theres guys running over 1000 cc preturbo. I've been running 500 plus cc for quite awhile. My nozzle atomizes the water better then the typical water only nozzles that you're using. I started at 300 cc and it's only gotten better with more water. Another thing is mine adjustes the water amount with the boost level.
09-04-09, 12:30 AM
#19
Rubish, 600cc is fine preturbo. Theres guys running over 1000 cc preturbo. I've been running 500 plus cc for quite awhile. My nozzle atomizes the water better then the typical water only nozzles that you're using. I started at 300 cc and it's only gotten better with more water. Another thing is mine adjustes the water amount with the boost level.
09-04-09, 01:30 AM
#20
I don't vary the water injector duty, my system is run by boost pressure. Pressurizes a tank by the turbo and forces water through an atomizing nozzle preturbo. So at 8 psi it flows 200cc, at 20 psi it flows 500cc and 23 psi is 575cc(where I currently am) 30 psi would be 750cc
Not when done correctly. Atomizing the water is the key, my system shows no signs of wear. With regular water only nozzles you need to get as high pressure as possible. (250 psi pump) With my system it has an air port with the water nozzle that mixes air with water to make a fine mist.
I run an air atomizing nozzle by spraysystems. part number sue18 with the water passage enlarged slightly. Here's a pic of it (click to enlarge) and a video of how fine the water molecules are.
Not when done correctly. Atomizing the water is the key, my system shows no signs of wear. With regular water only nozzles you need to get as high pressure as possible. (250 psi pump) With my system it has an air port with the water nozzle that mixes air with water to make a fine mist.
I run an air atomizing nozzle by spraysystems. part number sue18 with the water passage enlarged slightly. Here's a pic of it (click to enlarge) and a video of how fine the water molecules are.
09-04-09, 12:07 PM
#22
I don't vary the water injector duty, my system is run by boost pressure. Pressurizes a tank by the turbo and forces water through an atomizing nozzle preturbo. So at 8 psi it flows 200cc, at 20 psi it flows 500cc and 23 psi is 575cc(where I currently am) 30 psi would be 750cc
Not when done correctly. Atomizing the water is the key, my system shows no signs of wear. With regular water only nozzles you need to get as high pressure as possible. (250 psi pump) With my system it has an air port with the water nozzle that mixes air with water to make a fine mist.
I run an air atomizing nozzle by spraysystems. part number sue18 with the water passage enlarged slightly. Here's a pic of it (click to enlarge) and a video of how fine the water molecules are.
Not when done correctly. Atomizing the water is the key, my system shows no signs of wear. With regular water only nozzles you need to get as high pressure as possible. (250 psi pump) With my system it has an air port with the water nozzle that mixes air with water to make a fine mist.
I run an air atomizing nozzle by spraysystems. part number sue18 with the water passage enlarged slightly. Here's a pic of it (click to enlarge) and a video of how fine the water molecules are.
09-04-09, 01:57 PM
#23
Yeah the system works really well. With a low pressure nozzle like this it has to be preturbo, it wouldn't work post turbo. The pressures would just equalize and flow nothing. But because its mixed with air you can run more water without damaging the turbo, and as long as your ignition can handle it the power will go up, temps and knock will go down. I might try a meth water mix one of these days too.
