sdminus

Thats a valid point you have made and one i had not thought of. Im going to stick with the advice i was given. ie i wouldnt put up with a 15% fluctuation in my fuel map or a fuel delivery with more in common with a sine wave with a decreaseing base time than a fuel supply . Since i tune as close to the edge as i dare go i want it spot on.

:-)
Scott

ScuttleRX

Is this likely to be just the nozzle type systems that are affected, I presume ones that use proper injectors wont have this trouble?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

my last tuning run was oct 3... 'seems like years. i then headed up to minneapolis to meet up w steve kan and a dyno but 100 miles out my amps started buzzing and i elected to return home and rip everything apart... the amps were sent out for service to Nevada and have since returned and everything is back in the car and it is ready to rip. (nothing was wrong w the amps... i redid some wiring and expect them to buzz but run fine)

the lousy weather has abated for a couple of days and it looks like tomorrow will be 50 and thurs 48. balmy compared to the last couple weeks of colder than usual weather. interestingly, w methanol, the intake air temperature can get too low for methanol to "flash." around 57 degrees... i might have to seal my outside air channel which would probably be an FD first

i have taken another 6% base fuel out of the map, probably cured a boost leak and am planning to run 18 psi solid. my turbos (two) make 84 lbs/minute of air at 18. they make a bit more "net air" at 23 psi due to being slightly more efficient. i have reset my controller to 1.25 bar or 18.3 psi.

i am also weighing my car on a certified scale.

if all goes well i plan to get on a dyno this week.

stay tuned,

howard coleman

BDC

How'd today go, Howard? Ya get anything done?

B

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

apparently buzzing amps do as well as non-buzzing amps

i weighed the car and it turned out to be a fatty... 2900 without me in it. including a full (4 gallons) tank of methanol, that'd be around 27 pounds and about 60% of a tank of gas or 80 pounds... or 2793 dry.

the weight of the car on the computer for my runs is 3100. I weigh 200 w my lead feet.

i did 2 runs, one up the hill just to test the amps and one on the flat road... (think Bonneville w cows)

i set the boost at 1.3 bar or 19 psi ( my turbos make 84 pounds of air at that boost). i removed 6% additional fuel before the runs and based on my first run removed another 2% from 8 psi and up. I am down around 35-40% base fuel and replacing it w methanol under boost after 5.5 psi.


17.3-----------17.6-----------17.5-----------18.0---------18.0-------18.48 ------ boost

10.6-----------11.1-----------10.9-----------10.4---------10.3---------9.8----- AFR

16-------------21-------------17------------8-------------3--------------2-----PowerFC Knock

1125--------1117------------1179-------1190----------1201-------1234---Pre turbo EGT f

51-------------60--------------65----------71-------------81-----------86 Inj Duty850/1600

57------------59-------------56----------56-------------58-----------58------—Fuel Pressure

15-----------------------------------------------------------------Lead Ignition w 11degrees of split

4.2---------4.57---------------------------------------------------------------------------------TPS

57--------------------------------------------------------------- degrees F pre meth air temp

so what can we take from the latest methanol metrics?

I am running my 850/1600 (4900 cc/minute) base fuel injectors close to flat out at 86% duty cycle and an injecting another 1200 cc/minute of methanol and am making mucho hp according to Dynologlab….

Do you see any knock?

Do you see any high EGT?

Admittedly, my twin TO4 setup is different than the typical GT42 that makes its 80 plus pounds of air at 29+ psi. mine makes 84 pounds at 17+ psi. the same stress is in the motor in the form of produced torque however and torque is what really creates knock and high egts that warp apex seals.

Brian is running 25+ psi w his alcohol setup and, while he is currently running smaller sized air delivery, is seeing similar (low) egts.

What’s it going to take to get my egts up and where do I stop leaning out base fuel and making more hp????

Stay tuned.


howard coleman

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i was out for a run today. 48 degrees in wisconsin. i dropped my rear 285/30/18 Toyos to 27 psi in what turned out to be a losing game to get traction.

unless it warms up a bit it may be i am done tuning (3rd gear) on the road for the year. as i was feeding the power in ( around 3.2 on the TPS at 17 psi) the rear just went sideways around 6000 and 70 something mph.

i had loaded a new ignition map (thanks BDC) and bumped the boost to 23 psi.

looks like the dyno is the next stop. i was running mid 11s AFR and EGTs are still around 1197 tops preturbo. no knock.

howard coleman

mattmaclennan

Dying to see the dyno graph Howard... about 4 years ago I ran 50/50 on a 12A Turbo, made 1.6bar and cracked the back plate. It was a little ripper! It ran a TII ECU for IGN and Fuel, we hit boost cut, so I pulled the map sensor and turned the WI on LOL oh how you live and learn! Little did I know I was leaning it out and adding methanol... 4 years later you've got all this trick, singing and dancing, whitch craft at your disposal! Supprised you've not got your EGT's up yet, I would have thought the Methanol would do that with it's prolonged burn???

Scott - Oil testing lab: ALcontrol, very useful, good turn around time, £70 a pop though. You out to play at the weekend? SCR? Ross, Tim and Brian are going Sat.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

please keep this thread on topic which is alcohol tuning. since it has become a lengthy thread with, apparently, lots of interest i have taken the liberty of editing out a number of posts that were primarily off topic. please don't take offense as you may have been raising a valid point but it was not relevant to the subject of this thread which is alcohol tuning.

thanks

howard coleman

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i was just warming up for a 23 psi 3rd gear run as it is a glorious 66 degree day here in wisconsin, maybe the last of the year...

last week i had been out on the same stretch at 48 degrees and the car just went sideways at 3.6 on the 4.6 TPS voltage scale at around 17 psi. sideways at 79 mph. lots of power. cool.

so i dropped my rears another 2 psi to 25 pounds (285/30/18 Toyo TS1s) hoping to pick up some grip especially combined w the warmer road surface.

i guess i did as at 18.7 psi 5600 rpm the rpms took off leaving the car behind.

alcohol is going to change many of the system parameters we run on our cars.

in the case of clutches, if you are running pump-AI, you'd better load up.

i'd be buying stock in the Exedy twin disc Division.

my next move after running 23 psi today was to have been on a dyno. unfortunately that may be put off along w further road testing due to winter lay-up fast approaching. i spoke w Exedy and based on Head Tech USA Kevin Fujioka's comments will probably go w the twin cerametallic which will hold 540 ft pounds of torque at the rear wheels.

howard coleman

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i am in the process of pulling my motor and just took a look at the throttle body.

both the elbow, the throttle body along w the UIM and LIM runners look like they came off the assembly line. no trace of anything on them.

methanol not only makes lots of power but cleans the motor.

it just gets better.

howard coleman

Asleep

Pictures, please!

nik

It definately runs extremely clean, even post combustion. My bosch wideband looked as if it had never been used when i pulled it out, except for melted anti-seize. Then again I was running 20% meth constantly.

BDC

Methanol is a solvent. It's terrific. IT's definitely getting better!

B

rx7goomba

Amazing Howard...keep up the good work...and thanks!

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

just a hello to all...

the thread continues. i should be all bolted back together and headed for the dyno in 2-3 weeks. then 07 begins for me and lots of methanol gets burned. 'no doubt we all will learn something in the process.

i do think that AI will be the biggest single FD story in 07 and i know lots of you out there will be firing up.

i look forward to 07, how 'bout you.

howard

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

since there are over 9900 hits on this thread i do feel a responsibility to keep any interested parties informed...

as you may know i live in wisconsin and we have this thing called winter every year. while perhaps a negative it provides an opportunity to completely disassemble the car and do some re-engineering. it would be harder living in florida to have the car all apart for 3 months...

so every winter it is chop cut & rebuild.

last year i did so much of it my car didn't get on the road until july. this year was much easier:

new additions

Exedy double disc cerametallic sprung (ZM022SD) from RX7.com to replace the Exedy Hyper Single cerametallic. loved the old Hyper Single but it wouldn't hold my motor.

i had planned to convert to manual brakes and an adjustable brake bias bar but got sidetracked by RacingBrake and helped RB design an entire scratch built FD brake system. this all started late in November and i have everything on my car except the front calipers which will arrive inside of ten days. (see thread "FD... new brake options" in the suspension section. make sure and read the first post in the thread which now has over 400 posts and 15,000+ hits.)

new wheels: Enkei NTO3+M 18 X 9.5 fr, 10.5 rear 19.4 pounds

i switched from my torsen to a T2 plate type rear end.

i added a Banzai Racing differential brace.

i added Garfinkle's super duper new engine pan brace.

i added FJO's Injector convertor so my 1600 secondaries will be properly run by the Power FC. converts the signal from saturation (FD OEM) to Peak and Hold which is the way they are supposed to be driven.

the total work on my Alkycontrol system was to drain the methanol from the fuel cell for the winter and inspect the fuel cell anti-slosh foam. (it was totally uneffected by the 6 months of being immersed in methanol.) i posted 3 new pictures on the picture thread of my installation that may be of help to you as to pump mounting. but, really, i haven't had to do anything since installing my setup and it has worked perfectly to date.

it will be less than 2 weeks and i will be on the road and on the dyno shortly thereafter. i will be switching to dyno tuning as the car has gotten so fast there are only a few places to do pulls. plus i may have tempted fate enough having not had to talk to anybody in a blue uniform... "uh, we had you at 120 in a 45 mph zone."

further 07 plans include a tricked up 6 speed T56 transmission, a new design blade rear spoiler ala NASCAR (though shorter), and getting alot more track time. i plan to run the Silver State Classic (Nevada 90 miles of 2 lane closed off road) in Sept.

do expect to hear from me shortly.

howard

CrackHeadMel

iTrader: (2)

Well that sounds good. I have always enjoyed your posts and a post winter update is always nice to hear.

I also live in one of those states with 'winter' and completely understand the taking apart of the car Every year, i do the same thing.

Did you switch from the torsen to a t2 because of the power and fear of breaking it, or for other reasons?

-Jacob

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

yes, i switched soley because the torsen does break much easier than the plate type LSD. if you are running around 400 rwhp a torsen should be a tick faster on a road course as well as reliable.

generally when the torsen goes it takes out the diff case. i had bought the T2 LSD about 3 years ago and it was sitting on the shelf so considering one of my AI themes: (if you run AI and turn up the boost you are going to have driveline problems) i decided it was time.

that's also why i did the Banzai brace and of course had to upgrade my clutch.

T56 and axles to follow.

i don't drag race but w 500-600 rwhp on a road course, well, i would rather fix it before it breaks.

hc

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

Tony had asked for a picture of my throttle body.... here it is. as you can see it is clean and has no pattern of uneven distribution.

i also include a couple pictures re my nozzle placement. two M10 (1260 CC/min flow). the nozzles index at 6 and 3 o'clock. i added the NOS Y fitting as i didn't like the brass T fitting supplied. although it is aluminum
it shows no sign of deterioration at this point.







hc

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

2007..... Finally.

it has been a long time since my last on the road tuning blast Oct 23.

last sunday i buzzed up to Beyond Redline Performance in Green Bay (90 miles each way) to meet up w Luke Stubbs, proprietor of Wisconsin's newest and , IMO, most capable tuning shop.

on a sunday. no phones ringing, just Luke, my car and me.

the program was:

fix a longstanding high idle, tip in, better tune the vacuum and then the fun stuff. the first being tune on 93 gas to one bar. then tune 93 plus alcohol for one bar. finally let her really rip to see what we have inside those two TO4s around 26 psi w alcohol.

we started strapping the car down around 9 am and called it a day around 3...

and we completed a little less than half the program.

Luke being the smart guy that he is (you don't think i am working w an average tuner do you)... fixed the idle with some settings 1 stuff... diagnosed the tip in as not the usual accel inj or accel v TPS ( i knew that) and fixed most of it. then we worked on vacuum.

here is where tuning on the road and dyno radically diverge. i have done road tuning for 3 summers and being able to hold in cells in 4th gear on the dyno is wonderful. (everything was done in 4th giving poor old overworked 3rd the day off).

eventually we got into boost off the spring and then set the AVCR for one bar. while not anywhere near tuned out we made 408 rwhp and 321 ft pounds on the last gas run.

it was then time for alcohol.

using the same general settings except for lowering the pump gas as the alcohol fired we made 425 w 353 ft pounds.

none of the above is tuned out at one bar. i subsequently found a primary boost leak and a number of the vacuum to max boost cells can be improved both w re to timing and fuel. we only made 3 alcohol runs.

so there are no Marquis numbers here but there is data and i want to share it.

the plan is to be back on the dyno approx Aug 5. we should have lots of time to work on what we have and eventually run our 26 PSI and do 88 pounds of air.

i am really proud of my motor for doing over 20 4th gear pulls on the dyno and another 180 miles to and from and not breaking a sweat.

i am also VERY impressed w Luke. mark my words you will be hearing about him in the future. he is a very talented tuner. anyone within driving distance and wrestling w a tuning problem would do well to contact him.

Beyond Redline Performance. Green Bay Wi. 920-498-1223
Luke@beyondredline.com

here are the numbers from my 2 best pulls one 93 pump, one pump plus alcohol.

Gas
******************************************aver
------------N16-----N17-----N18------N19---N20
EGT-------1214---1201----1204----1222---1286----1225 F preturbo
AFR------ 11.4----11.1-----11.0-----11.5---11.7-----11.34
Boost--- 15.3----15.5-----15.5-----14.9---14.7-----15.18
IGL ------17------17.3-----18--------18.3----19
Inj Duty- 75%---78.4-----81.9-----80.3---80--------79.12%
Knock--- 2.5-----4.0-------7.3-------4.0------5----
fuel pres 58-----56------55---------55------58
EMP*-------20----18------25--------24-------24---------22.2
Split 11

408/321

Gas & Alcohol

******************************************aver
------------N16-----n17-----N18------N19----N20
EGT------ 1101---1110----1170----1187---1231----1159 F
AFR-------11.2----11.5----11.6------11.2---11.4-----11.38
Boost--- 16.7----15.9-----15.3------15.3----15.7----15.78
IGL------ 15.3----17.7-----18--------18.5-----19
Inj Duty- 53.1%--58.3----59.7------63.1----65.5-----59.94%
Knock----- 6--------4-------4.5---------3---------3
fuel pres 57-----58-------55----------54-------58
EMP*-------18-----23------23----------24-------20------ 21.6
Split 11

425/353

*EMP is Exhaust Manifold Pressure. ie, backpressure before the turbine.

various items jump out... cooler egts w alcohol even w a slightly higher boost and more HP and Tq. lower duty cycle (of course). the motor isn't breaking a sweat in either run w 1550 being my target preturbo EGT.

to be continued...

howard coleman

Barry Bordes

Howard, seems like a lot of IGL timing for 93 oct. only. No RPM reference. We know the PFC records 2 degrees beyond your IGL Map so you are probably running about 16* on your 15# row. Will you add a degree or so for meth?
Barry

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

yes Barry i was running 15-16 and we bumped it 2 degrees. it made more power w no knock or EGT change... and yes, the numbers are the logged numbers not the map numbers.

when i get to the 20 plus PSI stuff it will be dialed back to 15 and we will re-proceed from there. i will advance it w no hesitation if i see good egts and knock etc.

hc

RICE RACING

Sounds like we are aiming for similar goals Howard (but two totaly different ways of doing it).

i am going AI route (diff method), T51R KAI turbo kit (v's your twins) though similar power goal and application for track

keep up good work and congrats on your first up dyno efforts. I am pretty sure you will net figures in the 520 to 530rwhp range on your target 24psi boost which will make for a crazy quick car may have to invest in a racelogic systme like i have LOL

thumbs up again.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i am off the net for a week starting sat... in the back country/new mexico. while it will be a nice change of pace i can't wait to get back to the dyno.

i will be shooting for 25.7 psi which is where my turbos make the most NET AIR. net air being pounds per minute times (%) efficiency.

net air should be 58.6 pounds. do not confuse this w gross air. check your turbo, do the math and see what you come up with.

howard

Asleep

Hope to join the both of you at that psi and power. Racelogic is already barking at me as it is.