Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

here are 9 charts from one dyno run that you might find interesting.

the reason i have posted all 9 is that they each, by virtue of the Watches, show specific readings as to RPM, AFR (AN1), Knock, PIM (boost), Preturbo EGT F (AN4) and IGL (lead timing).

this run was my last and was Pump and Methanol at approx 15.5 psi. 425 rwhp and 353 ft/lb Tq.

the PIM offset has been recently adjusted and was found to be approx 1 PSI high to actual. the PIM numbers on these windows are not adjusted and are therefore a pound or so high. the run was started in fourth gear at 2000 RPM.

as you will see there are lots of areas for improvement but that's what it's all about especially the first time on the rollers...



steady state last tick in 4th gear before the pedal goes to the metal




chartpoint at high knock tick in early part, 300 rpm into run. note AFR spike to 13.9 on initial around 56 seconds. i still have a small Tip In problem. EGTs starting their steady climb.




the last tick before alcohol flattens the AFRs. i will need to work on the transition so as to achieve smooth AFRs thru initial alcohol. about 4 psi. i also plan to move up alcohol start to around 8-10 psi.






the low AFR (10.1) due to alcohol. this all needs tuning to bring it up to mid 11s. timing ramps down after this point. knock ramps up. hmmmm....




these 3 charts show a knock sequence and are included for the data.










top tick boost... actual max hp was at 6500. top tq at 6111.




last tick before off the gas.




here are a number of 15 ish dyno sheets plotted at 3000, 4000, 5000, 6000 and 7000. mine has the top tick at 6000 but you will note loses steam at 7000. perhaps it as simple as the boost trailing off. perhaps not.

the above is posted as it may be of help to others as well as me. any comments welcome. i have fixed a primary boost leak and a few other item and will be back on the dyno this sunday planning to run to 24-25 psi.

hc

Asleep

Nice Howard. Good to see you driving/logging/tuning/running. Appreciate the data share.

wackaloo13

iTrader: (3)

you decided to go with the fjo setup right?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i am currently driving my 1600 secondaries with the FJO Peak and Hold module. the removal of my resistors and the addition of the FJO driver eliminated the bump in my base fuel at transition as well as reduced my duty cycle a modest amount.

i do plan to switch AI systems from a progressive pumpspeed driven setup to a HSV and have not yet decided on a system. i am actually pretty happy with what i have but the HSV will provide better tune-ability.

hc

BDC

That's WAY too much IGL at 7800rpm, Howard. I'll give you a call tomorrow and talk to you more about it.

B

BDC

Wait, ignore that.. that might be right at decel.

B

RICE RACING

Thats so interesting Howard and thanks very much for posting those detailed sequences.

Can you believe I have never ever used that deature of te datalogit before? I always used the graph tabular version to do tuning on my spread sheets etc but never even knew of the graphical plots (like I could do on my other ECU's) how silly I am LOL, been going though my mountains of .txt logs from all types of FD's and am loving it. as I do so much road tuning primarily its good to see just how damn fast some of these blokes have been (I dare not publish them, might end up in jail).

What i found interesting was the boost curve of your twins (even taking into account of the offset you mentioned).

When i get my FD completed *very soon* will post up my detailed logs + try to colate the mountians of *usable* data I have figured I now have of the other PFC cars !

Answering your question, I cant see anything wrong at all with you logs in the highlighted fields you have given and also the map watch's, you can have up to 10 items, i'd like to see the trailing as well + the air temp and water temp figures (but thats being ****). you just need to crank up the boost and see how high she goes

good luck on next runs.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

data snapshots at peak HP (6500) and peak Torque (6111)

i have included some additional digitally logged info.

AN2 is digitally logged Fuel Pressure.

AN3 is preturbo Exhaust Manifold Pressure (EMP). note it is 14 psi at peak hp and 16 at peak torque! near peak output my ratio is very close to 1 to 1.

actual accurate max boost on this run was:

-------n15.............n16..........n17........n18....... ..n19...........n20
------15.93..........16.85.......16.21.....15.40.......1 5.38........15.76

low backpressure is due to a combo of my exhaust ports, the fact i have two turbines and two 3 inch downpipes.

comparatively:

my total turbine wheel area:

2 X 4.522= 9.04 sq inches average ind & ex.

T4 O trim= 5.422
T4 P trim= 5.894
T4 Q trim= 6.646

additionally i have two 3 inch downpipes

area measured from the O D for comparative purposes:

2 X 3= 14.13 sq inches

3 inch DP= 7.06 sq inches
3.5 inch DP= 9.62 sq inches
4 inch DP= 12.56 sq inches

my twin DPs mate in a Burns Stainless Y at the midpipe (Borla 3 inch 40944) and into a RB single. obviously there is give up there but i am willing to make the tradeoff so as not to talk the the guys in blue.


Air Temp is located in the pipe before the elbow and BEFORE the methanol. actually after a run the upper intake manifold is very cold to the touch.... i like that.

split is 11 degrees. i run a J&S Knock Sensor and Retard. it is the later model that includes a MAP sensor so it only activates in boost. it is set to retard IGL up to 10 degrees on knock so, since it does not retard IGT i need to run more than 10 split so as to not have my IGL firing behind my IGT.

since this tuning thread is about AI the duty cycle is interesting...

i made 409 hp on pump gas at 7000 rpm w a 80% injector duty cycle.

i made 410 hp on pump and alcohol at 6050 w a 47% duty cycle, the rest being alcohol. (two M10 1250 CC/Min jets and 850/1600 injectors)

that's a 41% duty cycle reduction due to alcohol and my FJO Peak and Hold injector convertor.

after talking w Jose LeDuc monday i will be running IGL at 10 degrees when i raise the boost to 25 psi. it is one thing to have a bit of knock at one bar and fatal at over 20 psi.... so you start very conservative w re to timing at that level even w alcohol. he should know. he has run 7.63 w his 100% meth 2000 pound 2 rotor RX3.


PEAK HORSEPOWER 425


PEAK TORQUE 353

Barry Bordes

I wish you would log/chart intake temps. Would love to see the line dive when the alcohol is added!

Nice full logging run to 8000 rpm.

My knock readings are a little noisy about like yours. Almost like feedback from something rubbing slightly.

Thanks for your alcohol tuning output.
Barry

RICE RACING

You dont need so much timing on a rotary and dont fall into a false sense of security on a chassis dyno.

we run 8 deg of advance on 12A 35psi 164mph 2200lb pure meth car and another little tip you must keep it rich the more power you plan to run, *almost* regardless of fuel or AI type. What survies on a dyno does NOT survive on the road or track (two very very very different worlds).

the water injected car i posted up here only runs 8 deg of advance as well
infact its very rare to ever use more than 12 deg unless the porting is extremely **** and the car noses over alot !

ALSO *be very careful* wen the car ramps up near peak tq (around 5k) and boost comes on hard and aFr comes down to correct levels, i generaly on high power only use around 4 deg of advance here if not less some times...... too much timing here is a well know engine breaker and you will always log high knock here even though the conditions seem fine on paper, due to the lag in things catching up to each other.

most experienced people will tell you you need **** all timing and its very much related also to the qty's of split your running as well but there has been essays written about that by me and others about 5 years ago

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

yes, i have noticed i always get some (modest but more than surrounding cells) knock readings as it ramps toward peak torque.. i have wondered about pulling a bit of timing there.

i appreciate the info... keep it a bit rich and very modest on ignition advance.

hc

Boostn7

Hi Howard,
looking at your charts you PIM #'s seem quite off.
Your peak PIM# of 23008 @ ~6.5krpm is about 18psi or 1.27-1.28kg/cm2 if scale and offset were to be properly calibrated.
What rpm do you see full boost(15psi) at with your setup?
Is your static fuel pressure set @ 40psi?
Good luck and keep your eyes on the IGL where your torque peaks out.

I enjoy looking at data logs:-)
Here's what my chart with watches looks like when logging....actually over 2 years old but about the same with more data.

JD

RICE RACING

Great layout of the graph/chart I like looking at the different ways people set out the view's etc, eveyone seems to have a PC with Vista too I have my old toshiba Libretto 100CT with win98 second edition chuging away here now (also my tuning computer LOL).

I love the PFC, i got all my custom watches set for different warning colors, all in unique sized box's grouped together etc, and the chart....... well some do call me **** LOL

RICE RACING

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

thanks for the helpful and interesting post JD...

rail pressure logged is at 40 psi.

as to boost... after my dyno runs i found a material difference between the logged boost from the dyno and my PIM data. my dyno guy, Luke, indicated that his dyno was right on the money. i have a 4 inch laboratory grade 0-30 psi gauge so i did a zero to 30 psi (the gauges is accurate within one percent for the entire range) plot comparing gauge boost to PIM and the AVCR.

based on that i re-adjusted the calibration...

the accurate boost for the run is:

-n15 ----n16------n17-----n18------n19-----n20
15.93---16.85---16.21---15.40---15.38---15.76
(i have subsequently corrected post 233)

------aver net of rail fuel pressure:
--11-----17---------18-------15--------14-------18 (aeromotive)

15 psi reached at 5780.

i am not currently happy w boost curve. it is slow to develop however 200 rwhp is reached at 4650 which is O K for 88 pounds per minute of turbos. we will see what the top end is like prior to doing anything to add boost lower other than working w the AVCR.

i looked at my gas boost curve thinking that perhaps the alcohol is overcooling egts midrange but found my gas boost curve quite similar. i did find a primary boost leak which of course couldn't help but is probably minor. we will see on that. further there is still plenty of tuning to do midrange. additionally my alcohol introduction point is too low at around 2-3 psi. i will adjust it to approx 8 psi.

thanks to Rice and JD for the really interesting screenshots... we should have lots more on the site.

howard

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

things went fine sunday but i did not get it tuned out as we do have what is probably a tuning issue...

i did make 364 ft pounds at 16.2 boost on pump/alcohol at 5686. knock was 9 on the Power FC and declined to 1 at 7950. i also lowered my 200 rwhp rpm by 300 to 4350 V my july session. lots more hp/tq under the curve til peak torque then things don't look good.

more details shortly. when i figure something out... then back to the Beyond Redline dyno.

hc

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

Dyno Session 2 Aug 19- 07

While we elected to stop a bit short during this session I do have some data which could be of interest and also have a major problem to solve so I thought I would lay it out…

There are two runs of interest. During both runs we did exceed the july runs as to torque peak and earlier spool however what we found was once torque peaked it took a real dive.

So much of a dive (from peak 364 at 5916 to 240 at 7500) that we decided to make one further run, end the session and figure it out.

We leaned the map globally 3% and turned up the gain on the alcohol to see if we could eliminate a couple of very minor knock spikes .

That run moved the 7500 rpm torque from 240 to 283 and the minor knock vanished.

End of session/// time to do some analysis…

My library of 24 relevant dyno runs from others shows that average torque at 7500 is down 11% from the peak number. Further, 7500 torque averages 11% higher at 7500 than 5000.

My last run picked up 7500 rpm torque from being down 34% from peak to down 22%. The average of the 24 other sheets was 11%. So we made progress w some modest tuning but are still not there yet.

Here are some comparatives:


5000 RPM Torque

average of 24 other sheets 304 ft pounds
HC 317 ft pounds

Peak Torque

Average of 24 other sheets 374 ft pounds
HC 363 ft pounds

Peak Torque RPM

Average 24 dyno sheets 6080
HC 5568

This is interesting to me… only 2 other dyno sheets showed peak torque at my rpm or lower and they were 349 and 317. this indicates to me if I can straighten out the problem I will make more torque and probably at a higher rpm.

7500 RPM Torque

average of 24 sheets 333 foot pounds
HC 283 ugly.



There are a number of potential solutions here. Torque is all about (VE) volumetric efficiency. All of a sudden I go from fairly decent to bad. The two areas are flow and tuning. Flow could be the turbos, the manifolding both intake and exhaust or ports.

I digitally log exhaust manifold (back) pressure (EMP) and it is 23 at 15 psi boost. The compressors are working in efficient areas on their map and should be heading for their sweet spots.

I don’t believe the ports are a problem. They are nicely done large-ish streetports.

The more I reflect on the problem the more I think it is tuning, Rotaries are similar to 2 cycle motors, since they are… and, as such, are significantly more sensitive to proper tuning than their 4 cycle counterparts. The fact that we picked up 43 foot pounds of torque going from mid 10s to low 11s makes the point.

I have a feeling that I am nowhere near the proper tuning neighborhood. I will just let my instrumentation guide me from here out…

I am running a somewhat unusual setup w my twin TO4s and alcohol so I am going to refresh my tuning research by re-auditing the TurboBuick’s 200 pages of alcohol tuning threads and will be back on the dyno Sep 9.

I expect that a proper combination of more timing, higher AFRs will finally raise my EGTs to 1550 F preturbo where they belong. At that point I think we will have a lot different torque curve and some good-er overall numbers.

Data from the 2 runs below

Stay tuned…

HC

Log 8-19 11:30

422 hp and 364 torque SAE corr

rpm 5685-------6038-----------6341----------6748---------7195--------7668---------7898

PSI 16.5-------16.43----------15.36---------14.74---------15.6---------16.43------15.36

AFR 10.5---------10.7-----------10.6---------10.2------------10.2--------10.3---------9.8

EGT F 1046------1115---------1108-----------1156----------1178--------1190--------1238

Knock 14----------20-------------9.5--------------8.5-----------10.3---------17-------------27

IGL 14.5---------14------------15--------------16--------------15-----------13----------14.5

IDC 47-------------47----------52--------------58-------------64-----------67------------67

Fuel P 57.6--------55.4----------57.6-----------56.9-----------57.8----------53.4-------57.1

AIR T 24C-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WTR T 82C-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Log 8-19 12:40

(removed 3% fuel global & changed alcohol gain from 4.7 to 6.5)

415 hp and 363 torque...

much improved area under the curve

rpm 5647--------5984-------6441------6793--------7200----------7635-------------7973

PSI 16.91-------16.83-------15.59-----15.23-------15.47-----------15.59---------14.99

AFR 11.5----------11.4---------11.2-------11.1---------11.2------------11-----------11.1

EGT F 1053-------1145--------1181------1214--------1230----------1256----------1293

Knock 9---------11-------------6--------------5------------5---------------5---------------1

IGL 14---------14-------------15-----------15-----------15-------------15------------15.7

IDC 47--------47.7-----------49.9----------55.4--------58.1------------61.1--------62.3

Fuel P 57.8-----60.1-----------58.3-----------56.9-------58.7-------------58----------55.9

AIR T 23C------3---------------24----------------------------------------------------------------

WTR T 80C----80----------------82---------------------------------------------------------------

EGT is preturbo. IGL is lead ignition (advance). split in boost is 11 degrees. Ait Temp pre meth.

the second dyno chart (below) has more area under the curve.

from my two logs here's the rpm, boost and afr at alcohol introduction. obviously i need to lean base fuel at initial alcohol:

11:30 log
rpm-----------AFR---------Boost PSI
4466-------- 12.7------- 7.25
4621-------- 11.2-------- 8.5 alcohol
4783---------- 9.7-------- 10.12
4966--------- 9.1--------- 11.96
5151---------- 9.9--------- 13.55
5353--------- 10.1------- 15.08
5576 -------- 10.8------- 16.24

12:40 log w 3% global fuel reduction and alcohol gain reset from 4.75 to 7

4480--------- 13.4--------- 7.5
4601-------- 11.4--------- 8.5 alcohol
4731-------- 10.5--------- 9.73
4860--------- 10.3--------- 11.09
4996---------- 9.7---------- 12.51
5151........... 9.9........ 13.62
5326----------10.8--------- 14.79
5490--------- 11.3--------- 15.84

Barry Bordes

First impression, boost control not steady... falling off about 2 lbs.
Secondly, my power always falls on its face with AFR's in the 9's, get them back to mid 10's at least. ( anther call to your rotary guru!).
Barry

Barry Bordes

Howard,
1st run AFR drops to 9.8 @7890RPM and tq/hp drops smartly as shown on chart 1.
2nd when you leaned it somewhat the torque builds faster but you still have some 9's at 5000-5150RPM.

Looks like you are heading in the correct direction.
Rice says keep it rich, the question is how rich?
I run 10.9@ 16psi and 10.6 @ 18psi, and I am afraid to go further. No EGT or J&S!
You are testing and exploring for all of us.
My gut feeling is 10.5@ 20psi.
Talk to the Guru and good luck.

I think adjusting the timing with a pressure sensor while on a dyno would be the ticket. Check out this website.
http://www.optrand.com/CALplug.htm

Barry

RICE RACING

Remember this number

10.80:1

* this is a magical number that yields greatest power to cooling/knock reduction, things come alive when you hit this figure * there is not such great gains going to a lower percentage of richness.

Any word back from FJO howard? if they dont get back to me i might just buy a AEM peak and hold box instead

Barry Bordes

Ah! Another piece of the puzzle.

Many thanks Peter.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i realized in the middle of the night why things weren't quite lining up. the Dataloglab adds aerodynamic drag and the dyno doesn't so i am pulling the two charts above and will stop by Beyond Redline early next week and have a couple of proper dyno charts printed and will post them.

hc

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

as luke and i were in the car looking at the logs after a dyno run he said... "notice the EMP (exhaust manifold pressure---backpressure), you can see where your wastegate is opening..."

after a bit of slicing and dicing which led to the above chart i sure would agree.

my base backpressure is 11 psi. that's at idle up to zero boost... so if we are going to make boost what's it going to cost us is the question.

if you look at the chart at 16 psi boost the additional backpressure is 16-17 psi. notice how it tracks from zero to 16.

THEN... the wastegate opens. the boost controller was set for 15.5 psi and it overshot so it opened up the wastegate. look what that does to EMP. it dives from 16 to 7 while boost drops about 1 psi.

THEN... the controller decides enough and closes to raise boost. just like slamming a door the EMP shoots up to 25 PSI.

an interesting dynamic. one that argues strongly that you want as smooth a boost as possible.

based on this i moved my solenoid tap from the engine side of the UIM to just behind the throttle body. if that doesn't do it i will tap the compressor housing. i may mess with the gain setting of course.

hc

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

instrumentation rules.

once you have it you need to be able to read what it telling you.

as you may know i dynoed in july and aug. while i was pleased w the overall results it was clear that the motor was hitting a wall after 6000.

just where it should take off.

looking for answers-reading the instrumentation resulted in the above chart which while interesting and helpful did not in and of itself solve the problem.

the EMP (Exhaust Manifold Pressure) backpressure did.

i have too much.

my problem has been one of flow thru the motor. not the WG.

i called my turbo guy Kevin Draper. after sharing my EMP numbers it took Kevin a Ms to tell me i would be switching to Stage 5 turbine wheels.

backpressure, according to Kevin should be v close to zero at idle. i have 11 pounds.

the turbos will greet the UPS guy tomorrow and i will be back on the dyno Sep 16.

thanks also to Rice who properly diagnosed the problem too.

hc

BDC

10.80:1 -- Is this assuming any particular kind of fuel/water or fuel/alcohol ratio mixture? I would at first blush assume that having differences in the ratio of AI replacing fuel as well as what kind of AI being used would yield a change here in target A/F. When I was tuning my car, I was targetting in low 11's.

B