80% Pump----- 20% Methanol
10-02-06, 04:42 PM
#151
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Grats Howard you should gain substantially when you lean it out some. Rice posted he seems to get the most power at 13.00 AFR. Personally I seem to get the best power at around 12.5-12.7 provided you can aproch these AFR's with meth, you could gain quite alot.
Last edited by BoostedRex; 10-13-06 at 11:02 AM. Reason: Needless fluff
10-02-06, 04:48 PM
#152
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howard. This looks good.
I leaned back to 12.3 afr at 16 psi when i ran methanol but my gut fealing is that i could have gone a touch more. Howeva when i went from 0.78 to 0.83 i gained around 40 hp and a **** load of tq.
How do you plan to reduce the fuel ( afr ) you are going to have to either effectivly increase the methanol ratio by reducing the gas flow or reduce both in equal amounts. I just manipulated my fuel map but i was at lower levels all round.
One other thing that i have been milling over ( in the pursute of the best fix ) Is the MAP based injection system.
I know i have benn over this 1000 times before but i feal its a major point and is a stumbling block in the pursute of more power.
In breif my perception of the tq curve of power band is dertermained by the power created low down in the ranges. I feal this is more important in rotaries since they make little power low down in the revs unlike a v8.
the idea behind WI or AI is to displace the fuel with an alternative fuel/mixture which will do the same job but in a lower quantity/ratio/cost. In a map based system the WI/AI flow is counter productive unless you layer your fuel map for RPM as well as boost becasue the amount of WI/AI will increase as the boost goes up. In a fast spooling motor i think you will get a huge amount of in cylinder cooling ( more than is required ) at high boost low rpm. its my opinion that the fuel map will need to be far leaner than you would expect to gain the equivelant power.
Ie the rich you are in the lower stages the slower the engine speed. I see it better as momentum. If it is too rich or slow it can never make the full speed.
Does this make sense !
Scott
I leaned back to 12.3 afr at 16 psi when i ran methanol but my gut fealing is that i could have gone a touch more. Howeva when i went from 0.78 to 0.83 i gained around 40 hp and a **** load of tq.
How do you plan to reduce the fuel ( afr ) you are going to have to either effectivly increase the methanol ratio by reducing the gas flow or reduce both in equal amounts. I just manipulated my fuel map but i was at lower levels all round.
One other thing that i have been milling over ( in the pursute of the best fix ) Is the MAP based injection system.
I know i have benn over this 1000 times before but i feal its a major point and is a stumbling block in the pursute of more power.
In breif my perception of the tq curve of power band is dertermained by the power created low down in the ranges. I feal this is more important in rotaries since they make little power low down in the revs unlike a v8.
the idea behind WI or AI is to displace the fuel with an alternative fuel/mixture which will do the same job but in a lower quantity/ratio/cost. In a map based system the WI/AI flow is counter productive unless you layer your fuel map for RPM as well as boost becasue the amount of WI/AI will increase as the boost goes up. In a fast spooling motor i think you will get a huge amount of in cylinder cooling ( more than is required ) at high boost low rpm. its my opinion that the fuel map will need to be far leaner than you would expect to gain the equivelant power.
Ie the rich you are in the lower stages the slower the engine speed. I see it better as momentum. If it is too rich or slow it can never make the full speed.
Does this make sense !
Scott
Last edited by sdminus; 10-02-06 at 04:52 PM.
10-02-06, 05:05 PM
#153
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Thanks Howard, I appreciate your words....... I look forward to seeing how you go with all of this. This is a bit unrelated to rotaries BUT on my 1/8th scale pure methanol/nitro car I cant get CHT's under control if I go leaner than 11.7:1 (they skyrocket !) which confers a bit with Jrat's best levels around 11.5:1. Make sure you creep up on it step by step and see what works best 
Peter
Peter
Last edited by BoostedRex; 10-13-06 at 10:31 AM. Reason: Verbally attacking a mod
10-03-06, 08:48 PM
#154
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
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caveat:
hp and torque charts and numbers from Data Lab Log (DLL). i backed up DLL last November on a dyno and found there to be no difference. Scott, i believe, posted he had similar results. DLL says the greatest variance is 5%. Not all dynos read the same so these figures are not etched in stone. DLL requires the actual weight of your car, mine weighs 2750 w a half tank of gas. i had a full tank and weigh approx 200 so i used 3000 pounds. DLL requires the time and speed from the Power FC in addition to frontal area (19.26 sq ft) drag coefficient (.30), gear ratios and tire diameters. temperature and humidity SAE correction and smoothed. you'd be shocked at how DLL works. anyone w a Power FC who tunes their car should buy the program.
i did 2 runs today. last thursday i did a run and made 421 rwhp. i was going up a hill which understated the power.
i found i had an ignition leak effecting both my lead sparkplugs. fixed it today. the car ran measurably better and the egt difference of 120 degrees between the front and rear rotor completely disappeared. i took another 5% fuel out for the first run today... making me down about 35% base fuel making it up w methanol.
i did the same run up the hill for the first run. i made 525 rwhp at 6348 and 465 tq at 5960. see Dyno Graph 1.
details
17.2---------17.18----------16.89---------17.45-----------17.41-------------------- boost
1069--------1064----------1112-------------1149---------1101-----------preturbo egt F
9.2------------9.3------------10.1------------9.8------------9.8---------------------------AFR
2.3------------7.3-------------1.4-------------2.7-----------1.0---------------Power FC Knock
4.57----------4.57-----------4.31------------4.57----------4.56---------------------------TPS
56.3----------64.48----------67.4------------77.65--------80.7---------Injector Duty Cycle
58.99--------57.6-----------57.65-----------58.09---------53.43----------- Fuel Pressure
26----------------------------------------------------------------------Air Temp Pre Meth C
15---------------------------------------------------------------------------------IGL w 11 split
for run 2 i removed another 5% fuel from P11 down thru P19. i found a FLAT road surface. i made 604 rwhp at 6553 and 498 tq at 6105.
details
17.91--------18.32--------16.67-----------16.42-------16.31-----16.59--------boost
1049---------1051---------1093-----------1095-------1136-------1142--preturbo egt F
9.1-------------9.1-----------9.9-------------10.8-------10.4---------10.0---------AFR
1.0------------2.3------------14.5------------18----------14.3--------5.0-Power FC Knock
4.57---------------------------------------------------------------------------------TPS
64.1----------70.3----------67.7--------------72.6------75.15-------79- Inj Duty Cycle
59.31--------56.54---------56.74------------56.86----53.43------56.86-- Fuel Pressure
28-----------------------------------------------------------------------AIR Temp Pre Meth
15------------------------------------------------------------------------------IGL w 11 split
a few additional details.... while i personally feel the output numbers are close i will be dynoing saturday and will post the results. please keep in mind i run a two TO4/T3 turbosystem of my own design. according to the compressor map my turbos will make 42 pounds per minute each at 17 psi. 84 pounds per minute makes 840 rw piston hp and /1.3 approx 640 rotary rwhp. i am not surprised at the numbers should they be further proved out saturday. BTW, i have 8800 miles on my setup.
i do have additional net turbo output at 23 psi. i may have to change the springs in my actuators to get there... i also am still way rich. i will either cut back on my alcohol or i may keep lowering my fuel. there's still lots of tuning to do.
howard coleman
hp and torque charts and numbers from Data Lab Log (DLL). i backed up DLL last November on a dyno and found there to be no difference. Scott, i believe, posted he had similar results. DLL says the greatest variance is 5%. Not all dynos read the same so these figures are not etched in stone. DLL requires the actual weight of your car, mine weighs 2750 w a half tank of gas. i had a full tank and weigh approx 200 so i used 3000 pounds. DLL requires the time and speed from the Power FC in addition to frontal area (19.26 sq ft) drag coefficient (.30), gear ratios and tire diameters. temperature and humidity SAE correction and smoothed. you'd be shocked at how DLL works. anyone w a Power FC who tunes their car should buy the program.
i did 2 runs today. last thursday i did a run and made 421 rwhp. i was going up a hill which understated the power.
i found i had an ignition leak effecting both my lead sparkplugs. fixed it today. the car ran measurably better and the egt difference of 120 degrees between the front and rear rotor completely disappeared. i took another 5% fuel out for the first run today... making me down about 35% base fuel making it up w methanol.
i did the same run up the hill for the first run. i made 525 rwhp at 6348 and 465 tq at 5960. see Dyno Graph 1.
details
17.2---------17.18----------16.89---------17.45-----------17.41-------------------- boost
1069--------1064----------1112-------------1149---------1101-----------preturbo egt F
9.2------------9.3------------10.1------------9.8------------9.8---------------------------AFR
2.3------------7.3-------------1.4-------------2.7-----------1.0---------------Power FC Knock
4.57----------4.57-----------4.31------------4.57----------4.56---------------------------TPS
56.3----------64.48----------67.4------------77.65--------80.7---------Injector Duty Cycle
58.99--------57.6-----------57.65-----------58.09---------53.43----------- Fuel Pressure
26----------------------------------------------------------------------Air Temp Pre Meth C
15---------------------------------------------------------------------------------IGL w 11 split
for run 2 i removed another 5% fuel from P11 down thru P19. i found a FLAT road surface. i made 604 rwhp at 6553 and 498 tq at 6105.
details
17.91--------18.32--------16.67-----------16.42-------16.31-----16.59--------boost
1049---------1051---------1093-----------1095-------1136-------1142--preturbo egt F
9.1-------------9.1-----------9.9-------------10.8-------10.4---------10.0---------AFR
1.0------------2.3------------14.5------------18----------14.3--------5.0-Power FC Knock
4.57---------------------------------------------------------------------------------TPS
64.1----------70.3----------67.7--------------72.6------75.15-------79- Inj Duty Cycle
59.31--------56.54---------56.74------------56.86----53.43------56.86-- Fuel Pressure
28-----------------------------------------------------------------------AIR Temp Pre Meth
15------------------------------------------------------------------------------IGL w 11 split
a few additional details.... while i personally feel the output numbers are close i will be dynoing saturday and will post the results. please keep in mind i run a two TO4/T3 turbosystem of my own design. according to the compressor map my turbos will make 42 pounds per minute each at 17 psi. 84 pounds per minute makes 840 rw piston hp and /1.3 approx 640 rotary rwhp. i am not surprised at the numbers should they be further proved out saturday. BTW, i have 8800 miles on my setup.
i do have additional net turbo output at 23 psi. i may have to change the springs in my actuators to get there... i also am still way rich. i will either cut back on my alcohol or i may keep lowering my fuel. there's still lots of tuning to do.
howard coleman
10-03-06, 10:16 PM
#155
BDC Motorsports
That's awesome, Howard!!!!! I can't wait to see what the dynojet says.
I changed my plug wires today with janyuwine NGK stock ones. Haven't done much with the car but might this weekend. I need to go dyno my stuff as well. Hopefully the knock I had will be solved w/ the replacement of the plug wires. One of the old ones had a rip in the insulation.
B
I changed my plug wires today with janyuwine NGK stock ones. Haven't done much with the car but might this weekend. I need to go dyno my stuff as well. Hopefully the knock I had will be solved w/ the replacement of the plug wires. One of the old ones had a rip in the insulation.
B
10-04-06, 07:21 AM
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Top stuff Howard. I see the knock is coming up which is good to see.
Still a way to go yet but safely does it. With this sort of gain from reducing the fuel imagine what the final product is going to be like.
Scott
Still a way to go yet but safely does it. With this sort of gain from reducing the fuel imagine what the final product is going to be like.
Scott
10-04-06, 07:30 AM
#158
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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thanks Brian and Brian.
i have been trying to lean it out. so far i am down almost 40% on pump. as mentioned, i might take some alcohol out along w pump but i am not really there yet as to further decisions going forward. i would like to see mid elevens AFRwise.
i also would like to thank BDC who did the portwork on my motor. it is about time the ports were asked to do some real work.
oh, and my DLL software is DataLogLab not DataLabLog.
i am close to being finished on a piece which will be a new AI thread relating to fuel, alcohol and water volumes as they relate to nozzle selection...
howard coleman
i have been trying to lean it out. so far i am down almost 40% on pump. as mentioned, i might take some alcohol out along w pump but i am not really there yet as to further decisions going forward. i would like to see mid elevens AFRwise.
i also would like to thank BDC who did the portwork on my motor. it is about time the ports were asked to do some real work.
oh, and my DLL software is DataLogLab not DataLabLog.
i am close to being finished on a piece which will be a new AI thread relating to fuel, alcohol and water volumes as they relate to nozzle selection...
howard coleman
10-04-06, 01:33 PM
#159
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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after comparing a steve kan base fuel map, my pre meth map, and my current map i have decided to continue to remove base fuel rather than turn down the alcohol.
i compared total millisecond on-time between the three maps in a particular sector and conclude i am only down 22% from steve's gt3540 map. i am down 34% from my map but that included fuel timing in areas that i had never actually been able to run.... more constructed on an XL line graph to look good.... so it must be discounted.
i will say however that i never could get steve's map to work with my setp as it was always too lean. nothing against steve who was just trying to be of help and didn't have any hands-on time w my engine. we will meet up saturday when we tune in minneapolis.
howard coleman
i compared total millisecond on-time between the three maps in a particular sector and conclude i am only down 22% from steve's gt3540 map. i am down 34% from my map but that included fuel timing in areas that i had never actually been able to run.... more constructed on an XL line graph to look good.... so it must be discounted.
i will say however that i never could get steve's map to work with my setp as it was always too lean. nothing against steve who was just trying to be of help and didn't have any hands-on time w my engine. we will meet up saturday when we tune in minneapolis.
howard coleman
10-04-06, 09:45 PM
#160
development
Originally Posted by howard coleman
i did the same run up the hill for the first run. i made 525 rwhp at 6348 and 465 tq at 5960.
howard coleman
howard coleman
10-06-06, 03:07 PM
#161
BDC Motorsports
10-06-06, 05:03 PM
#162
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Originally Posted by BDC
I'm suprised your air intake temps are so high while spraying methanol. I used to run 18-19psi of boost and about the same power range you think your in. With a real good Spearco a/a core at WOT my temps would run about 15-20F over ambient. Even on a dyno with very low airflow my air temps didnt get as high as yours. If I had to guess, I'd say your stock intercooler is creating HUGE pressure drop and while your seeing 18-19psi at the manifold your turbo is probably putting out 25psi and severely overheating the air.
10-07-06, 11:21 AM
#163
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by SPOautos
I'm suprised your air intake temps are so high while spraying methanol. I used to run 18-19psi of boost and about the same power range you think your in. With a real good Spearco a/a core at WOT my temps would run about 15-20F over ambient. Even on a dyno with very low airflow my air temps didnt get as high as yours. If I had to guess, I'd say your stock intercooler is creating HUGE pressure drop and while your seeing 18-19psi at the manifold your turbo is probably putting out 25psi and severely overheating the air.
The stock TMIC is actually pretty good when it comes to not creating a pressure drop, believe it or not. It's just in a bad location and restricted by the hood aerodynamics.
B
10-07-06, 12:28 PM
#164
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
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for those following my exploits...
my scheduled steve kan/dyno day in minneapolis unfortunately isn't happening. 80 miles into my 360 mile run to minneapolis my amp buzz returned friday. after considering soldiering on i decided to return home and fix the problem. i had had a prior buzz that i fixed last week. i arrived home at 10 am and went to work. by dinnertime i had gone thru most of the wiring and still had the buzz so i and called it a day. since steve was also going to be tuning sunday i decided to finish the system diagnosis sat and if it fixed the buzz to head out, well it is saturday and all the wiring is A-ok and the buzz is still buzzing. both amps. no doubt the result of a short... don't ask.
i will yank them, box them and priority ship them out to Carson City where it will take a week to round turn them.
oh well.
the plus side is a new dyno is just coming on line in Green Bay and i will tune out on it as soon as the car is back on the road.
back at ya
howard coleman
my scheduled steve kan/dyno day in minneapolis unfortunately isn't happening. 80 miles into my 360 mile run to minneapolis my amp buzz returned friday. after considering soldiering on i decided to return home and fix the problem. i had had a prior buzz that i fixed last week. i arrived home at 10 am and went to work. by dinnertime i had gone thru most of the wiring and still had the buzz so i and called it a day. since steve was also going to be tuning sunday i decided to finish the system diagnosis sat and if it fixed the buzz to head out, well it is saturday and all the wiring is A-ok and the buzz is still buzzing. both amps. no doubt the result of a short... don't ask.
i will yank them, box them and priority ship them out to Carson City where it will take a week to round turn them.
oh well.
the plus side is a new dyno is just coming on line in Green Bay and i will tune out on it as soon as the car is back on the road.
back at ya
howard coleman
10-07-06, 04:03 PM
#165
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This may be of interset to all those running meth or a alch. I was suffering with idle and cold start problems. I have just replaced my oil and i can tell you that it is toxic as hell !!!!
My oil pressure is now back up again. My idle is better and it even starts when hot.
I just need to find some place to analyse the oil so i can get a report back on it.
Scott
My oil pressure is now back up again. My idle is better and it even starts when hot.
I just need to find some place to analyse the oil so i can get a report back on it.
Scott
10-07-06, 07:53 PM
#166
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
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i checked my oil thurs eve before my friday trip and it smelled no different than my mobil one before alcohol fyi... it also was exactly on the mark. my oil pressure seems unchanged from pre-meth days. i will say i probably haven't done as many alcohol pulls as Scott.
after having my car electrically all apart in the last 2 days i have it back together, changed back to my raceplugs and, buzz or not, am going to give it a blast tomorrow. i may have found/fixed a boost leak so we will see if it holds 20 psi. i am scratching my head on the amp buzz but will give it a go and then probably ship them out.
howard coleman
after having my car electrically all apart in the last 2 days i have it back together, changed back to my raceplugs and, buzz or not, am going to give it a blast tomorrow. i may have found/fixed a boost leak so we will see if it holds 20 psi. i am scratching my head on the amp buzz but will give it a go and then probably ship them out.
howard coleman
10-09-06, 10:16 AM
#168
Hey, where did my $$$ go?
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Originally Posted by BDC
Well Mr. if ya read the blog you'd know my IAT sensor is located in the lower intake manifold. :p That's why they read high. They're being affected by engine bay temperature, manifold heat soaking, etc. The fact that they drop considerably, while under load, even though they've already been heat soaked, is what's of note I think.
The stock TMIC is actually pretty good when it comes to not creating a pressure drop, believe it or not. It's just in a bad location and restricted by the hood aerodynamics.
B
The stock TMIC is actually pretty good when it comes to not creating a pressure drop, believe it or not. It's just in a bad location and restricted by the hood aerodynamics.
B
Why not relocate it? It probably wouldnt be hard at all to move to the upper intake or a intercooler pipe. Mine was in the stock FD location which is the bottom side of the upper intake mani. True that the lower probably heat soaks worse than the upper....I wonder if the lower being so hot turns the air flowing thru it that hot, especially with a rough cast texture on the inside of the runners.
Anyway, carry on lol
Stephen
10-09-06, 11:57 AM
#169
Originally Posted by sdminus
This may be of interset to all those running meth or a alch. I was suffering with idle and cold start problems. I have just replaced my oil and i can tell you that it is toxic as hell !!!!
My oil pressure is now back up again. My idle is better and it even starts when hot.
I just need to find some place to analyse the oil so i can get a report back on it.
Scott
My oil pressure is now back up again. My idle is better and it even starts when hot.
I just need to find some place to analyse the oil so i can get a report back on it.
Scott
Interesting..
I am notoriously lazy about changing my oil and plugs. My 5000 mile oil that I finally got around to changing smelled like your good old rotary oil should. Not sure why yours was acting strange...??
10-09-06, 07:56 PM
#170
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
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my amps are off to carson city for service. supposedly a week for service and a couple days each way...
meanwhile, my laptop decided not to open windows and i don't think my car runs without my laptop. so both my car and laptop are in the pits for service which is the pits.
have no fear, the alcohol tuning will continue, merely a speed bump.
howard coleman
meanwhile, my laptop decided not to open windows and i don't think my car runs without my laptop. so both my car and laptop are in the pits for service which is the pits.
have no fear, the alcohol tuning will continue, merely a speed bump.
howard coleman
10-12-06, 06:47 AM
#171
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
currently there are over 5000 hit on this thread and 190 posts.
i will restate the theme of this thread:
ALCOHOL TUNING
it is NOT about what you think about alcohol V water. should you wish to discuss that subject you are INVITED by all to start a new thread or find a thread where you are on topic.
everyone who has Tuning questions or experience w alcohol is encouraged to join this thread as we march forward on the learning curve.
readers are attempting to learn about alcohol tuning and will not follow it if they have to wade thru the OFFTOPIC water V alcohol comments.
please be respectful as we have something major going on here.
thanks to all,
howard coleman
i will restate the theme of this thread:
ALCOHOL TUNING
it is NOT about what you think about alcohol V water. should you wish to discuss that subject you are INVITED by all to start a new thread or find a thread where you are on topic.
everyone who has Tuning questions or experience w alcohol is encouraged to join this thread as we march forward on the learning curve.
readers are attempting to learn about alcohol tuning and will not follow it if they have to wade thru the OFFTOPIC water V alcohol comments.
please be respectful as we have something major going on here.
thanks to all,
howard coleman
10-13-06, 11:09 AM
#172
NorCal 7's Co-founder
Ok, I cleaned the thread up some.
Now that we have a dedicated AI section start filling it up! If people want to talk about how much better WI is, then start a new thread. This thread was started by howard to talk about Alch injection and not water, so I ask that you respect what he's doing and not drag this thread off topic anymore.
Now that we have a dedicated AI section start filling it up! If people want to talk about how much better WI is, then start a new thread. This thread was started by howard to talk about Alch injection and not water, so I ask that you respect what he's doing and not drag this thread off topic anymore.
10-13-06, 11:14 AM
#173
BDC Motorsports
Going out today to get some more logs and see how the car is doing in the now colder weather. The ambient temps outside have dropped about 20*F since I did my last testing several days ago. I'll be back.
10-13-06, 12:04 PM
#174
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I noticed that on wed nite my plenim and tb was frozen. a bit off topic but still some what realted. this was with a mix ( of sorts ) but the meth boys should get even colder.
Scott
Scott
10-13-06, 02:48 PM
#175
BDC Motorsports
My update for the day:
http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread...d=1#post547392
Hit just over 24psi. EGT's were 1250*F to 1310*F, EGT slightly post-turbo. 93 octane Diamond Shamrock super ninja gas; Still 70% gasoline, 30% methanol at 15+psi boost. I advanced the timing 1* under load and it felt like it picked up power. Need to dyno it and get some benchmark numbers.
B
http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread...d=1#post547392
Hit just over 24psi. EGT's were 1250*F to 1310*F, EGT slightly post-turbo. 93 octane Diamond Shamrock super ninja gas; Still 70% gasoline, 30% methanol at 15+psi boost. I advanced the timing 1* under load and it felt like it picked up power. Need to dyno it and get some benchmark numbers.
B