sleeper7

With the sensor in the charge pipe and temps were above 135F we were using a lot of water/meth. Way to much cause the power picked back up when we moved the sensor to the manifold and temp never ran over 125F above 29psi.
Happy with the results so far.

Not really sure if a better faster air temp sensor would show real air temps. Still have fuel being sprayed on it.

Heard of others running E98 with out a intercooler at a high HP then us. So our thoughts were E85 with water meth would do the trick. Just was spaying way to much water meth causing a loss of power. now we are concentrating on EGT more then air temps.

Now we can start advancing/retarding the timing a few deg at a time and see what our EGT numbers do.

sleeper7

top data is with sensor in charge pipe. bottom is air sensor in manifold.

Let off just after the 1000ft mark top log. bottom was in the 10.2 range.

Clubuser

are the #4554 satisfactory on a 300whp gasoline S4 TII on both L and T?
suggested gap?
also, do you know the clearance between the grounding electrode and housing's surface?

thx

sleeper7

Never tried the 4554 plugs. But the plugs in the photos are shorter then the stock plugs if your worried about the grounding strap hitting the rotor tips.

sleeper7

another boring update.

Changed a few things
Strait E85 as my main fuel.
Strait meth as my aux injection fuel. Three M15 nozzles post turbo. One nozzle comes on at 26psi and 150f. Two nozzles are PWM operated through a MAC valve. Meth used is extremely less then before.
Air temp sensor in back in the charge right before the t-body.

This is the setup I'm sticking with. Seems to work the best for me

Made a few passes the other night. Air temps were in the low 150f max.
AFR was in the low 10s. 10.4 or richer.
EGT max was low 1400f. Shooting for low 1300F. Next time out going to start advancing the timing and see if EGT go down.

Bad 60ft times and short shifting netted a best 10.5 at 133mph. (test boost level) Below 30psi. This thing is a slug below this boost level. Hoping this weekend we will turn the boost up were the turbo is happy and see if this thing will run low 9s with out a intercooler.

sleeper7

after dyno the other day. AFR was never leaner then 10.5

sleeper7

plugs after track night. 4 passes all under 10.3 afr. They were not new but cleaned before the 4 passes

sleeper7

Made two 1/8 mile passes today. Same setup as the other day except the boost was turned up a bit.

206f was the highest air temps. AFR was in the 10.4 range and EGT was low 1300F. 1200s egt is getting there.
Looks like I'll be adding one more aux injection nozzle. Or spray a shot of nitrous

What a difference in power below and above 30psi.

sleeper7

over two hundred pass in the last 18 months. 3oz per gallon premix. roughly 8 to 10 oz of water per pass.

sleeper7

The sanding of the rotor tips amd face were done early last year. Water is the ****.

sleeper7

Front plate. Motor had random blow by and stsrted to smoke.

sleeper7

Over 200 passes with super seals.

WLD 07

Great thread !!!

E85 seems to be an excellent fuel for rotary engines.

Curious to know at what point you guys find timing on a 13b becomes knock limited on e85 and mbt timing can't be reached.

RGHTBrainDesign

I'm confused here...

Stoichiometric AFR on e85 is 9.85:1
Stoichiometric AFR on E10 Pump Gas in California is 14.1:1
Stoichiometric AFR on Non-Ethanol Pump Gas is 14.7:1

So are you running Lambda = (10.4/9.85) = 1.056?
Or
Equalizing the system to 14.7, which would mean Lambda = (10.4/14.7) = .7075?

There's a huge difference between the two. One is STUPID rich and one is pretty lean for all that power.

sleeper7

AFR is the number the gauge reads. On the gas scale. With the bridge port the afr in the mid low 10s produced good power.

Changed motor a few months ago. street port now. And the afr is 11.7 to 12.2 and egt seem low and the motor seems to run good.

Fuel is now strait e85 with strait water injection. No mixing except premix at 3 oz per gallon. Car ran a 9.09 at 155mph last weekend. 2650lbs clutch assited trans.

Timing at 35psi is 15 with 5 split. Car runs great. E85 is the ****...
Did go back to water intercooler.

Few weeks ago in 4th gear at 35psi the motot shut down like it hit a fuel cut. didnt notice anything so made a half throttle pass. AFR was in the 16s at 6500rpms and 25 psi. so took it home and found the hose to the fuel pressure regulator had come off. Motor is fine and has mad several low 9 passes at 150mph plus. Why? e85. water injection and water to air intercooler and I think the 3oz per gallons of premix also helps with heat.

WLD 07

Awesome. So close to an 8sec pass.

Was the engine knocking on E85 without water injection or is it just to add a bigger safety margin

sleeper7

Not 100% sure why the bridge ported motor cracked the front plate. Have some ideas but nothing solid. Been running water injection for 12, 14 years now. Just cant get away from it. water is free! Tried different mixtures and strait water is the easiest and the tune does not need to be adjusted.

Just changed the plugs. After over a year of use on the old ones. Maybe 150 passes. Really didn't need changing. did it as a maintenance thing. But plugs looked great. With running 3 oz per gallon of premix the water is helping the plugs stay clean.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

Chuck,

you are amazing. thanks for sharing the details re your journey.

what is your view as to BP V street port? it appears you are personal best w the SP. of course many other factors could be in play.

your rotor housings look very familiar. very E85. circumferential scratching. your apex seal crowns should look mirror image. i disassembled 3 customer engines that had ran on E85 for a year last October and found them to be of similar condition.

all 3 motors were running perfectly at disassembly. good vacuum, good power. one was street raced for significant money and made 614 rwhp at 25.5 psi on a GT4094r. another had a BW FMW S30063 and made 565 and the final one was above 500 on a BW S300 63.

3 diff apex seals (Goopy. Atkins, RA SS) 2 diff premixes at 3/gallon.

2 tuners... both excellent. Nelson Siverio and Luke @ Beyond Redline.

my takeaway is that E85 works great but degrades the rotary much much faster than gasoline. lubrication between the apex seal and rotor housing is the problem.

since the two 'marry" together the motor works until it is taken apart. at that point you have to reassemble it without honing the rotor housings or changing the apex seals and, of course the seals have to go back in exactly the same positions.

my jury is out, but will soon be in, re whether E85 housings can be properly restored/honed.

so what did you do w your housings and apex seals when you reassembled?

Howard

sleeper7

The bridge motor was in the car for over 4 years. went through a couple set of seals due to the banana syndrome. And was taken apart due to it pushing to much oil. Started idled and ran good for its useage. So after taking the motor apart and finding the front plate was cracked, had to use another motor. ALL the rotating assembly was used on the street port motor. Including the apex seals. They had roughly over 100 passes on them and look great. RA super seals. The street port motor housing were honed. Hate to compare the two motors. That bridge port motor was abused trying different things. Now that the tuner and building has found his way, this street port motor is performing GREAT!. Since it has fresh housings and plates.

Spark plugs are the race plugs 10.5 all four. I still believe in the shorter reach plugs to get things up and running. Ran them up to 400/500 hp. There was mention that the shorter plugs will allow heat spots on the housing threads that are exposed to the combustion chamber. In my findings this is totally false. and this is why. The short reach plugs are nickle plated grounding straps. This will melt off way before anything else get hot enough to create hot spots. They just cant take the heat. Also the housing threads are backed my water.... Reason why cooling systems are so critical in making power.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

when i disassembled 3 customer motors and my own i found very scratched housings. all looked the same other than degree which related perfectly to power output and miles.

in all four cases the apex seals were mirror image of the housings so all 4 sets (Akins, Goopy and RA SS) were not usable against a new housing as the housing would have been flat and the apex seal would have had the matching scratches creating leakage.

it is interesting that you were able to use your used apex seals against flat/honed housings.

around the 600 hp level we have found NGK BR10ES to work very well. you are in another zipcode powerwise and perhaps nickel/copper might not might not hold up.

i am back on gasoline and meth as AI but am not looking for much more than 600. i will no doubt be using Q/C16 at the Texas Mile.

i like the lubricity of gasoline.

Howard

sleeper7

Yep Howard your correct. Their are a few guys out there making great power with the cheap plugs, including you. But for me it was sketchy above 600hp. Did manage to run a 9.9 at 140mph on them though. That was a few years ago and my tuners skills was less then now. Not saying there good now just better then 5 years ago.

Wish you could see my plugs first hand after they have 100 passes on them. Mixing 3oz per gallon and running strait water injection. Next year will try 3.5 to 4 oz per gl.

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

This has been an excellent read. I'm soon to be running 30+ PSI on e85 into a semi peripheral motor and after having read this think I may need to add some water/meth.

Chuck, after all this testing and experimenting what would you say is the final product or best mix has been?

Skeese

sleeper7

What the car has been running on the last 9 months is e85 pump fuel and strait water for the water injection. around 9 oz of water per pass. 30% pre turbo. Also running a big water air intercooler so that must help with the water injection water reaching the combustion chamber before evaporating.

Long story...

Two Fridays ago the car left on the rear bumper and when it came down it did more damage then thought that night so we made another pass. Car ran like junk. found a plug with missing porcelain. When back to the track last weekend with new plugs. right before that pass is when we realized the water injection pump was missing. Made a pass anyways thinking how much is the water really doing. Well ran real good through 3rd gear then went lazy in 4th. Ran a 9.2 at 133. Got it home and found another bad plug and compression was down on both rotors. warped one in the front and broke one in the rear rotor. RA super seals.

Rebuild motor Saturday with RA classic seal and installed a new water injection pump and also added another small nozzle. Turned the boost down a bit and mad two passes Saturday night. two 9.7 at 135 and 147 mph. Motor is fine. No real ecu adjustments made to make the passes last night.

SO is this a example of how important my water injection is to my tune? With this street port the afr has been in the high 11s. Over 100 passes with out issues.. best pass was 9.06 at 155mph puts the RWHP well over 350.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Uhh

You knew it wasn't working and you ran it on the strip anyway? That's an expensive experiment. If your car is tuned for the air temps of water injection and the temps end up much higher, don't be surprised if it knocks.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"we realized the water injection pump was missing. Made a pass anyways thinking how much is the water really doing.

SO is this a example of how important my water injection is to my tune?"



"Uhh

You knew it wasn't working and you ran it on the strip anyway? That's an expensive experiment."



Chuck is probably if not THE most, for sure one of the most accomplished racers in our community because:

he is ALWAYS racing.

he is ALWAYS trying different things and learning

he ALWAYS shares his learning both positive and negative

and he is going fast.

i see what Chuck did as entirely consistent w his prior efforts. he clearly stated why he decided to run without water... "to find out how much is the water doing."

i offer thanks to Chuck for doing the research and sharing it w the community. it looks like that even alcohol can benefit from AI.

Howard