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I don't see them recommending high oil concentrations for street use. they also don't talk about what alcohol concentrations they are running and that is important. for a track use case i will likely run more oil as i expect to be loading the engine harder for longer periods of time. I don't put much stock in "gods" advice, especially second or third hand. at the end of the day i am running an engine that if the alcohol should prove destructive then i did not loose pristine parts. while i am changing turbo setups i am going to try to scope my engine and see if there are any signs of excessive wear or depositing at this stage.
after having done the "research" over the years and having run most premixes i admit that finding the optimum pick probably isn't going to happen based on science
i have almost five gallons of a special mix from a highly accredited "Scientist" at Ashland Oil/Valvoline. i have a gallon or so of his second trip to the plate. i have the remainder of a gallon of my current pick, Redline 2 cycle Alcohol Oil. and i really have no idea what works best.
sort of like the various "oil" threads that litter the internet.
i am now, for better or worse, shifting back to Klotz Benol.
as the years speed by i have found a decreasing number of people/businesses that are 100% motivated to find the ultimate solutions to the various challenges that present themselves to our modded FDs. not surprising of course.
not on that list is Adam Heyman, longtime proprietor of RX7 Specialties. having worked with E F Hutton for 16 years i am well aware of their tagline, "When E F Hutton speaks, people listen." in my book so it is with Adam.
Adam had recently done some additional mods on an engine he had built more than 3 years prior. when he looked at the housings he was in disbelief. the motor had been run on E85 for over 3 years slightly over 600 rwhp and had been pretty heavily beat on. the housings really didn't even need honing and the (RXParts) apex seals didn't need replacement.
what was the premix?
my previous experience w Benol ended w the observation that there was a fair amount of tar deposit but most of the other premixes also generated tar. if, as Adam observes, the metal parts of the motor are happy w Benol i will live w the deposits. it would be hard to over-emphasize how impressed, shocked, Adam was as to the motor's internals.
ok, but neither here nor there for the Bio-Rotary premix if you haven’t verified that yet. Which is being heavily promoted by Kyle Mohan and Mazdatrix. That makes me a bit leery with there being a financial sponsorship involved. Yet relative to your comments, if it can be used at such a lower concentration level then it may address some or all of your tar buildup claim. Hard to be sure without being the guinea pig though …
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Alright I know it has been a few years since I said I was going to open my engine up and inspect it. Well after some family issues and other distractions I have opened my engine up that was built over winter 2019-2020. I don't have a ton of miles on this engine but I think I have some good data.
This engine was built on used parts that were in good shape when I built the engine and all parts were cleaned before building. I used an Atkins closing kit with solid corner seals and e & j apex seals, I set the side seal clearance at .005" and ran Klotz Super Techniplate at 1oz per gallon of E. ethanol content from the pumps I use is stable at 70%. I change the crankcase oil often as it contaminates with ethanol quickly.
The short version is that I am seeing some accelerated wear on the housings likely due to not enough premix. I am getting an oily residue built up in my intake runners but it does not seem tacky so I think it will clean up easily. the rear rotor came out looking gross but the front rotor looked about the same as the last time I opened the engine.
Overall I am going to say that I need to run a different corner seal, close the side seal gap to .002" and run 1.5oz per gallon of the Super Techniplate.
some wear showing on the housing but not bad front rotor face front rotor side rear rotor as i opened the engine rear rotor face rear rotor side
your housings look like the 3 customer motors run on E85 that i disassembled in order to add studs. significant longitudinal striations. lack of effective lube. it seems like you have decided to tune up a few things and will be headed in the right direction.
Super Techniplate suggests lots more premix than you ran. check.
your rotors are interesting. the pic of the F rotor shows a pretty good seal at the corner seal. little carbon inboard of the sideseal. the rear rotors look like you weren't running sideseals, all the inboard carbon. your oil rings look like they are in need of replacement.
OE corners are the best because they have a chrome coating.
plugs look OE?
suggest you start heavy on the premix. Klotz says 4 to 2.6 oz gal for water cooled racey motors..i am running Benol as it has a bit more shear strength. i will be talking to the Bio people next week after reading TeamRX8's content.
@7sins Can you share a little more? I assume that with the small amount of premix that you still had your OMP? Any idea of that was still functioning? Did you switch from "E" fuel to pump fuel and how often? Do you have any AI to help clean the motor?
was hoping to dig a little deeper into the Bio whatever premix so i emailed the Co and received a response that "Ben" was the guy to talk to... w an email address. i emailed Ben as to setting up a call at his convenience 3 days later i have yet to hear back. i mentioned i wanted to compare their product to Benol which is mostly castor bean derived... therefore the "bio." Bio is a euphemism for gov'mint subsidies our tax dollars in action. i will do a follow up. the most interesting aspect of the bio premix is there direction as to the amount per gallon... waay low compared to other premixes. i approach w an open mind...
was hoping to dig a little deeper into the Bio whatever premix so i emailed the Co and received a response that "Ben" was the guy to talk to... w an email address. i emailed Ben as to setting up a call at his convenience 3 days later i have yet to hear back. i mentioned i wanted to compare their product to Benol which is mostly castor bean derived... therefore the "bio." Bio is a euphemism for gov'mint subsidies our tax dollars in action. i will do a follow up. the most interesting aspect of the bio premix is there direction as to the amount per gallon... waay low compared to other premixes. i approach w an open mind...
Curious to hear what you find out...
I won a case of that Bio pre-mix at the Deals Gap raffles this year, so I've been trying to find out if the stuff has a TCW3 rating on it before trying it out in my FD & FC. Oddly enough, there's no mention of this rating on the bottle or on any of the company's online spec sheets. I'm not running E85, just 93 octane pump gasoline (aka E10 in most places), so I'm not sure if this Bio lube would be any better or worse than any other TCW3 rated premix for my application. BTW, I'm running my premix via a separate tank thru the RA adapter kit and the OEM FD oil metering pump. My current OMP tune burns approximately 1 oz of pre-mix lube per gallon of fuel consumed on average for regular street driving, and I'm not adding any additional pre-mix to the fuel. Stock newish Mazda 13B-REW block (<10K miles), all OEM seals
you might consider mentioning that as well since the data sheet only discusses using it as premix with no mention of using it for direct injection.
which on street fuel driving their recommended rate is only 1/4 oz. per gallon, compared to 1/2 oz. per gallon for high alcohol fuels. Thought I read that Kyle Mohan runs quite a higher ratio on his drift cars using alcohol fuel though
possible that the guy is away on vacation tied in with the July 4th holiday.
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@7sins Can you share a little more? I assume that with the small amount of premix that you still had your OMP? Any idea of that was still functioning? Did you switch from "E" fuel to pump fuel and how often? Do you have any AI to help clean the motor?
Eric
I have the OMP blocked off. I switch to gasoline over winter, by that i mean i run the tank low and fill up with standard E10 91 oct that is premium here in CO, which usually puts my content around 25 to 30%. I do not use AI as I do not want the extra complication that comes from those setups.
The pictures make the housings look far worse than they are, a little bit of burnishing with 220 on a dowel evened them out nicely.
I took those pictures before fully inspecting and cleaning the engine and found both rotors to have 1 side with that heavy carbon depositing. soaking the rotors in solvent for a couple days cleaned them right up. I will take some pictures today before I assemble the engine.
I have the OMP blocked off. I switch to gasoline over winter, by that i mean i run the tank low and fill up with standard E10 91 oct that is premium here in CO, which usually puts my content around 25 to 30%. I do not use AI as I do not want the extra complication that comes from those setups.
The pictures make the housings look far worse than they are, a little bit of burnishing with 220 on a dowel evened them out nicely.
I took those pictures before fully inspecting and cleaning the engine and found both rotors to have 1 side with that heavy carbon depositing. soaking the rotors in solvent for a couple days cleaned them right up. I will take some pictures today before I assemble the engine.
Appreciate the response. I am just curious as I am considering doing E85 on my build. Mixed reviews with premix and gunk, so the more information is welcomed. I currently have an AI system(AEM V1 with a V3 nozzle) on my stock motor. I tuned the car and added it simply to lower temps and help clean the motor. Wondering if having AI for the same with E85, not for the tune, but simply to help clean the motor would be beneficial or not.
Appreciate the response. I am just curious as I am considering doing E85 on my build. Mixed reviews with premix and gunk, so the more information is welcomed. I currently have an AI system(AEM V1 with a V3 nozzle) on my stock motor. I tuned the car and added it simply to lower temps and help clean the motor. Wondering if having AI for the same with E85, not for the tune, but simply to help clean the motor would be beneficial or not.
Eric
cleanup was super easy for my engine. i did not have any tacky tar like substance. i cleaned the intake ports on the irons in a solvent tank and they cleaned right up. the rotors went into some carbuerator solvent which broke down all of the carbon deposits. i would not want to "clean" the engine with water meth although it may be beneficial to use a simple fixed orifice in a vacuum tube dipped into water to clean deposits.
if you are pretty stock i would say that high ethanol blends are not worth your time on a rotary engine. the extra premix costs and added wear are not worth the charge cooling effect so ethanol really only enters the conversation past knock limits of available pump gas.
as an aside i started up my engine thursday after replacing all seals and springs except for the apex seals. I clearanced the side seals to .002" this time and used OEM corner seals. i also torqued my studs to 40ft/lb this time instead of the stock 28. after 20 mins of run time the engine made 110psi compression +- 3 psi on a half bridge here at 5337' above sea level using the rotarycompressiontester.com tester. I will be running 2oz per gallon on this setup and do not plan to tear the engine down for a while this time. the tune is off now with the higher compression so i have a bit of work to do but i am happy with the results of this build.
I've recently had my FC tuned for pump fuel/E85 flex tune. Running Castrol Snowmobile oil @ 1.5oz/per gallon on 91.
We drained the tank and filled it with E85 (actually E70 at my servo) and I went to 2oz/per gallon of Redline Alcohol 2 stroke as I had decided that based on Howard's thoughts, earlier in this thread.
My question is... at what percentage of Ethanol do you believe it is safe to start running a "regular" 2 stroke oil again?
This Redline **** is bloody expensive!
I topped off the tank with 91octane after the dyno session and I'm down to 45% Ethanol content. I added the Castrol Snowmobile 2 Stroke for the 6 gallons it took to top it off.... but it had me wondering to what degree it is safe doing this? I'm aware that type of oil does not "homogenize" well with E85... but at what ethanol content would you guys feel ok doing this at?
Also, Im not set on this Castrol Snowmobile 2 stroke... it was simply what was available to me locally.
This is an excellent thread. Thanks to all that have contributed.
the regular Redline 2-stroke racing premix oil is rated up to E50 and is available in a 1 Gallon size with costs less per ounce than the 16 or 32 oz. containers.
the regular Redline 2-stroke racing premix oil is rated up to E50 and is available in a 1 Gallon size with costs less per ounce than the 16 or 32 oz. containers.
I’m not really understanding your question and I don’t see an oil-gasoline basis weighing in on it. It’s not rated for anything higher than E50 ethanol level and there may be more to it than G/E-content.
For myself, I put 1.5 oz. Redline Racing per gal of E50 + 1/2 oz. per gallon alcohol top end lube = 2 oz. per gallon total, 64:1 or 1.56% by volume combined.
I’m mixing E85 with 93 E10 premium at the pump in 5 gal jugs and not being overly scientific about it. Usually ~E46 is what the flex fuel sensor is indicating. Which correlates to the pump E85 being ~E70 actual based on a 3:2 mix ratio.
I intend to switch to the Bio-Rotary premix once the Redline is used up. I didn’t mention it for this question since being a USA product it’s likely not readily available in Australia or would be costly.
I'm assuming (which is a big assume) that the oil is miscible with the gasoline component of the E85 and not the ethanol component.
I also assume that 2 stroke oils are generally engineered for 2 stroke engines, which typically run far, far more oil in the fuel than even the most die hard rotary premixers.
The upshot is, assuming those two things are true, then one should be able to use it *in rotary quantities* with E85 just fine.
if you want to chance ruining an engine; then ok, but it would be wiser to get someone there on the phone and have that conversation first to see if your assumption has any merit.
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Might be pertinent to ask if that's the long dead local measure, or the US size? Even in the former, that seems like a lot. We've found running at 100:1 and no oil pump, at least in a car that sat a lot, that would result in gummy deposits and sticky seals on E40 (motul). One in the tuners here recommended around 150 and was running that in a client's race car for several years > Penrite, which might relieve a little fiscal pain on imported oils.
Rather than speculate on the castrol, probably easiest to mix some in a glass jar with your selected E mix and see what happens over a period of time.
02-18-21, 03:01 AM
