E85 Pre-Mix
 

E85 premix can be an issue.

the typical 2 cycle oil that many of us used w gasoline often does not mix (stay in solution) w ethanol. also, alcohol requires a lube w a bit more backbone. finally, many are using a caster bean premix primarily because it does have outstanding lube abilities yet caster does deposit a sticky substance on the intake port walls, rotor faces and if used either in too large a ratio, or idled a lot, can cause side seals to stick.
i know this to be a fact from a number of motors.

this does not mean that it doesn't work, it is just that you will end up w sticky internals. pls do run what you wish, i am only offering alternatives.

i recently attended the largest racing trade show in the world and made it a point to speak w most of the oil companies re this issue. i did post this in the other thread but it is lost as post 33.

i learned we have numerous options w re to premix that:

will stay in solution w ethanol, that is, they are soluable

offer excellent lubrication

contain no caster component .



from the 2014 PRI:

here are three caster-free synthetic oils that absolutely will stay in solution w ethanol and methanol.

in each case i spoke w a tech person not a marketing person. Klotz ORIGINAL Techniplate is primarily used in RC airplanes. the tech person, Jame Perkins, is quite familiar w our rotaries and said it would provide proper lube strength. PN is KL 200

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/538/4YO7Xu.jpg


i spoke w Scott Wieland, Senior Staff Scientist CLS for Valvoline. Valvoline has recently come out w a new line of products for racing. the PRO-V line.... among them is PRO-V Racing Karting Oil. it is a new product as of Oct 2014. it will stay in suspension with both gas and alcohol and will provide proper lube strength. i am very impressed w my conversation w Scott. check out Valvoline PRO-V for more info. PN is 858545 for a 5 gallon pail.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/908/h78HzU.jpg


i received what i thought was incorrect info from a marketing guy at Redline at the PRI and have since checked w Redline tech so can state that the correct E85 premix from Redline is the 2 Cycle Alcohol Oil product. here's the product sheet and an excellent 2 cycle oil write-up. thanks for it Redline...

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/540/lfqPi1.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/540/9xawdk.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/673/TWv9MB.jpg

Bean Free :)



howard

Thanks for posting the info.
Ordering some techniplate today.

Klotz Original TechniPlate

just an FYI:

approx retail price per gallon

Klotz ORIGINAL Techniplate $42.74 (see Sleeper7 link post 2)

Redline 2 Cycle Alcohol Oil $73.95

Valvoline Pro-V 2 Cycle Racing Karting Oil $50

good stuff, right here..thanks!

:AA:

update:

i used the Valvoline product March/April this year around 550/575 and did not like the wear on the rotor housings. i believe it needs more lubricity.

i am now using the Redline 2 cycle Alcohol oil and have found my premix. i also have a number of customer E85 engines that have been running it w excellent results.

i used the Redline 2 cycle oil for 4 years around 500 hp (pump gas and 1500 cc of meth) and there was virtually no wear in the engine so i am back in the Redline camp.

Howard

Howard,

If one were to run a rotary aviation OMP adapter, would you still recomend using one of these products for the resivoir (assuming no premixing in the gas tank)? Or would a more traditional two-stroke oil be OK?

street-heat7,

assuming you are running E85, a big yes on the Redline 2 cycle Alcohol oil for your RA setup.

one of my engines, on Sep 11, made 614 SAE hp at no more than 26 PSI w a GT4094r using Redline 2 cycle Alcohol oil. since then, it has broken two transmissions (i see a T56 this winter) and twisted a driveshaft from second gear street pulls and is running fine...

pls do note that Redline offers:

Redline 2 cycle Racing oil

Redline 2 cycle Alcohol oil

you want the Alcohol oil for E85 of course.

Howard

I've been running B100 biodiesel as a premix as I have posted in another thread here. I don't remember how many miles I got on it before I finally tore down the block to build my current high compression turbo block. But, there were no signs of inadequate lubrication, I was doing about 1.3oz per gallon, and no sticky residue as associated with castor. Currently I'm running it quite a bit heavy during this new break-in, approximately 2+oz:1gal. It also shows no signs of separation from the E85 during extended periods of sitting.

Is this one ok?

Klotz Super Techniplate



or should I just get this one

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/red-40505/overview/

I'm very curious as to the circumstances regarding this.
Was it a fresh rebuild to begin with?
Approximately how many miles in those two months?
Any contributing factors (i.e. not the oil) that you can think of?

I ask as I'm given to understand that even using engine oil on a DD that's run hard won't show any appreciable wear in only two months.

thoughts on castor 927 oil?

no, it's one of the worst for hard deposits.

Have to agree I was using this and it did develop hard deposits and I had to completely clean my fuel system out. Been using Redline Alcohol have not had any problems no separation or deposits. It sits for over a month in the tank sometimes before I start it up just to cycle and its perfect and I mix heavy 2-3oz per gal. My buddy uses the Castor 927 and swears by it but he is straight methanol and the fuel system is always emptied out after racing.

i ran Redline 2 Cycle Alcohol Oil in my motor and two of my customer motors and we all had the tarry deposits, especially on the primary intake runners.

previously i had used a caster based (Benol) product and a specially mixed Valvoline item and all 3 created the same issues.

i might have still be running E85 if it had not been that all four motors ended up w significantly scratched rotor housings and seals.

i am back on gas and meth as AI.

if i were looking for more than a touch over 600 i might still run E85 but i do think that a properly set up gas motor will do fine until the 625 area where alcohol begins to pull away.

Howard

thanks for doing the research man

Pre-mix in E85 suspension
 

My half ass(ed) test of four different 'leading' pre-mix samples in E85 suspension (@ 2.5oz/gal).:

SPIC RACER GT40R: Corn Alchemy - Revealed

Interesting for sure, I am running super techniplate at 1oz per gallon, no omp on E&J seals. I have not torn the engine down yet to inspect but I do not have any tacky substance in the intake runners yet as others have reported. I will probably pull the engine down at the end of this year and see how things are looking.

You may be running too little oil.
I talked to Edgar from E&J and he recommended me 1.5 oz per gal as a minimum for street with no omp on pump gas, more for track, for my semi-p engine with E&J seals. I didn't ask about alcohol but it requires more, no?

maybe, remember there is also ~30% more fuel being injected which means ~30% more oil.

edit: sorry distracted with working for a living, it’s also more alcohol to be washing it off, so that’s not the same thing as upping the premix ratio

the recent article talking about also adding in some methanol top lube; creating a less dry, more slippery feel in addition to quieting injector noise and preventing pintle sticking/corrosion caught my attention
.

so 0.595% alcohol :scratch: even pump gas has ~10% in most places.

are you suggesting running top lube in addition to ethanol premix? most guys run top lube because they are not running another oil in their fuel and providing some lubrication to the injectors and intake valves is generally a good idea when running alcohol based fuels.

I googled "top lube"
results weren't what I expected :lol:

apology for the confusion; fixed that post

be sure you add the word ‘methanol’ when searching for top lube is all I can say about that :suspect:

the oil is mixed with the ethanol... so if the ethanol is going to wash it off it would not deposit in the first place. the question is not whether or not the ethanol is a solvent, which gasoline is as well. the question is whether or not there is enough oil present to adequately lubricate the seals. yes ethanol does not have the lubricating properties that gasoline has but since we are injecting 30% more of it we are injecting 30% more oil as well. i think increasing oil concentration is a bad idea that can lead to fouling.

7Sins, while you may be right about fouling, I find that two of the five rotary gods think elevated pre-mix levels have goodness:
Spic Racer GT40R - PRE-MIX - The Rotary Witches' Brew of Tribology