E85 may have saved me......
06-18-19, 05:41 PM
#1
E85 may have saved me......
This past Saturday I finally got my FD dyno.
The car made (488hp @ 22.5 psi) (500+ @ 25psi) We stopped @ 25psi.
Here is my setup
13brew Large street port (Pinned)
Currently tuned on E85 making (488hp @ 22psi) (500+ @ 25psi)
Goopey 2mm seals
s364.5 sxe turbo
Haltech Elite 1000
CJ Dual fuel pump hanger (2 x Bosch 044)
To make a long story short, on fathers day (Sunday), I took the FD out for a quick rip, that was when all hell broke loose. One of my fuel pumps failed, causing a major drop in fuel pressure at high boost 15psi +.
The AFR I saw were very LEAN (14.1 to 16.5 AFR @ 20 psi +.)
When I did the first pull I wasn't paying attention to the wideband as things were happening so fast, then I noticed the AFR were very lean, so I quickly backed off the throttle. I drove the car home and let it idle on my driveway to see if I heard or saw any indication of engine failure.
Fortunately for me, the FD is not showing any signs of apex/engine failure. The FD starts up immediately under cold and normal operating temps as well as REV's fine without any hesitation. Very little to no smoke. I'm not sure anyone has tested the limits on how lean you can run E85 on boost.
FYI, my ECU logged everything as it happened. I can share the log if needed for proof.
The car made (488hp @ 22.5 psi) (500+ @ 25psi) We stopped @ 25psi.
Here is my setup
13brew Large street port (Pinned)
Currently tuned on E85 making (488hp @ 22psi) (500+ @ 25psi)
Goopey 2mm seals
s364.5 sxe turbo
Haltech Elite 1000
CJ Dual fuel pump hanger (2 x Bosch 044)
To make a long story short, on fathers day (Sunday), I took the FD out for a quick rip, that was when all hell broke loose. One of my fuel pumps failed, causing a major drop in fuel pressure at high boost 15psi +.
The AFR I saw were very LEAN (14.1 to 16.5 AFR @ 20 psi +.)
When I did the first pull I wasn't paying attention to the wideband as things were happening so fast, then I noticed the AFR were very lean, so I quickly backed off the throttle. I drove the car home and let it idle on my driveway to see if I heard or saw any indication of engine failure.
Fortunately for me, the FD is not showing any signs of apex/engine failure. The FD starts up immediately under cold and normal operating temps as well as REV's fine without any hesitation. Very little to no smoke. I'm not sure anyone has tested the limits on how lean you can run E85 on boost.
FYI, my ECU logged everything as it happened. I can share the log if needed for proof.
09-28-19, 09:46 AM
#6
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
great to hear your motor is O K.
i have never been a fan of dual pumps and with the availability of the Walbro E85 pump there is even more reason to run single.
i recommend, and have run, a Kenne Bell Boost A Pump (BAP) since 2003. zero problems. Kenne Bell has a wonderful Fuel Tech Section that i recommend:
http://kennebell.net/wp-content/uplo...ump-Tech-1.pdf
being a dual purpose guy i look at fuel (flow) delivery at 30 PSI boost.... so that would be 43.5 static and 30 psi boost or 73.5 PSI on the typical fuel pump flow chart.
you are running the SX-E 64.5 which is a max rotary power 610/630 turbo.
600 rw rotary power requires 4736 CC/Min (10 AFR, 85% duty, 20% lag) NET fuel on gasoline
E85 (82% Ethanol, 15% gas) on a BTU basis requires 45% more fuel volume:
4736 X 1.45 = 6867 CC Per Minute net into the motor for 600 on E85 based on BTUs
the Walbro E85 pump delivers 90 gallons per hour/ 5678 CC per minute at 73.5 psi and 13.5 V.
Enter Boost A Pump.
Kenne Bell has been selling them for 21 years with (to quote them from the site) "no failures."
currently they offer a 17 V and 21 V version but they also offer an adjustable (zero to 50%) version not listed on the site which is the original version. i run it at 16V.
16 V increases output 28%
5678 X 1.28 = 7267 CC/Min at 16 V and against 43.5 static and 30 PSI boost...
the pump only sees higher V in boost. i have never had a pump problem relating to the 16 V.
another interesting tidbit from the excellent section is that dual pumps lose 20%+ flow due to the turbulence at the point where the two pumps output join each other.
i have never been a fan of dual pumps and with the availability of the Walbro E85 pump there is even more reason to run single.
i recommend, and have run, a Kenne Bell Boost A Pump (BAP) since 2003. zero problems. Kenne Bell has a wonderful Fuel Tech Section that i recommend:
http://kennebell.net/wp-content/uplo...ump-Tech-1.pdf
being a dual purpose guy i look at fuel (flow) delivery at 30 PSI boost.... so that would be 43.5 static and 30 psi boost or 73.5 PSI on the typical fuel pump flow chart.
you are running the SX-E 64.5 which is a max rotary power 610/630 turbo.
600 rw rotary power requires 4736 CC/Min (10 AFR, 85% duty, 20% lag) NET fuel on gasoline
E85 (82% Ethanol, 15% gas) on a BTU basis requires 45% more fuel volume:
4736 X 1.45 = 6867 CC Per Minute net into the motor for 600 on E85 based on BTUs
the Walbro E85 pump delivers 90 gallons per hour/ 5678 CC per minute at 73.5 psi and 13.5 V.
Enter Boost A Pump.
Kenne Bell has been selling them for 21 years with (to quote them from the site) "no failures."
currently they offer a 17 V and 21 V version but they also offer an adjustable (zero to 50%) version not listed on the site which is the original version. i run it at 16V.
16 V increases output 28%
5678 X 1.28 = 7267 CC/Min at 16 V and against 43.5 static and 30 PSI boost...
the pump only sees higher V in boost. i have never had a pump problem relating to the 16 V.
another interesting tidbit from the excellent section is that dual pumps lose 20%+ flow due to the turbulence at the point where the two pumps output join each other.
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10-10-19, 12:50 PM
#11
Make sure you set it to have a DTC severity and check your settings for whichever level you set it to (Functions > Engine Protection). It might not do anything by default at Level 1, depending on the firmware and ECU version.
Having DTC set to none, just means it throws a check engine light and keeps operating as-is.
Having DTC set to none, just means it throws a check engine light and keeps operating as-is.
10-10-19, 02:14 PM
#12
Understood. I have the HALTECH ELITE 1000. It only allows me to put one level of severity which sucks compared to other ELITE units.
Regarding the deadband and precondition does it look okay?
I was nt sure how to setup the deadband.
Thanks
Regarding the deadband and precondition does it look okay?
I was nt sure how to setup the deadband.
Thanks
10-16-19, 12:04 PM
#14
the thing i dislike about the elite software is the dead band for the fuel pressure settings. It will also trip fuel pressure fail safe if your pressure goes up above target by the same amount as if it falls below the target deadband threashold. This is a real PITA with mechanical pump, because you sometimes get a little fuel pressure spike when closing the throttle, and it will trip the deadband failsafe.
It should just be a fuel pressure drop deadband, not positive direction too, other than that it does work decent. I like the AFR protection alot better though
It should just be a fuel pressure drop deadband, not positive direction too, other than that it does work decent. I like the AFR protection alot better though
10-16-19, 01:17 PM
#15
the thing i dislike about the elite software is the dead band for the fuel pressure settings. It will also trip fuel pressure fail safe if your pressure goes up above target by the same amount as if it falls below the target deadband threashold. This is a real PITA with mechanical pump, because you sometimes get a little fuel pressure spike when closing the throttle, and it will trip the deadband failsafe.
It should just be a fuel pressure drop deadband, not positive direction too, other than that it does work decent. I like the AFR protection alot better though
It should just be a fuel pressure drop deadband, not positive direction too, other than that it does work decent. I like the AFR protection alot better though
I understand what you're saying but the definition of 'deadband' is quite literally both upper AND lower threshold for a 'neutral zone' if you will. It's a band of ignored values in a graph over time (or not). You're right though, It would be nice to have both a deadband and a lower threshold for safety.
01-23-20, 07:20 AM
#18
The engine protection on the haltech has worked perfectly for me in the past on both the fuel pressure and the AFR lean cuts. Those settings look perfectly fine, if I only had one engine protection level I'd be running something similar. Essentially if you trip that DTC, it will kill all duty to the controller dropping you to spring pressure immediately, dump a bunch of fuel (if you're running O2 control that high in boost), and cut the ignition to rip the car back down to 3000 rpms. Its going to be a very aggressive cut that hits like a wall when it happens, but as it only takes a split second to blow the seals out from a detonation event its probably about as safe as you'll be getting to avoid that.
I've had similar things happen during tuning of my own car where I didn't have engine protection on and managed to see a 15-16+ lean event under 20 PSI boost while on E85, but the motor was never damaged and I never registered any significant level of knock. This is partially why I'm a big supporter of running E85 a good bit leaner than most are willing to do....its VERY hard to detonate if you've got quality E in the tank.
Skeese
I've had similar things happen during tuning of my own car where I didn't have engine protection on and managed to see a 15-16+ lean event under 20 PSI boost while on E85, but the motor was never damaged and I never registered any significant level of knock. This is partially why I'm a big supporter of running E85 a good bit leaner than most are willing to do....its VERY hard to detonate if you've got quality E in the tank.
Skeese
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