you need to know about REFORMULATED OIL!!!! REVISITED AGAIN JULY 08
07-12-08, 10:50 AM
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you need to know about REFORMULATED OIL!!!! REVISITED AGAIN JULY 08
I posted the following july 06….
the June (06) issue of Hot Rod magazine (p 125) contains an article entitled: "When Good Cams Go Bad." while the report discusses an alarming 3 year trend in camshaft/lifter failures the significance of the primary culprit probably should be considered by all rotary owners.
a major engine builder is quoted as seeing more camshaft/lifter failures in the last 3 years than the prior 30.
while a number of reasons are considered one of the key conclusions is the recently reformulated standards for motor oil.
unfortunately i wasn't able to copy the article but here's an executive summary:
approx 4 years ago the auto manufactures, oil companies and the government (always bad to get them together) met to discuss an issue the regulators had re the effects of the PRIMARY ANTI-WEAR ADDITIVES in oil and their effects on catalytic converter life.
the additives are primarily zinc and phosphorus (referred to as ZDDP) they act as sacrificial items and take the mechanical wear in lieu of the engines components.
due to the fact that current motors use roller rockers/followers the industry didn't need as much wear protection as in the past, and didn't want to fight it out w the govt auto companies capitulated, er agreed.
the article features a table showing % of the 2 elements going from .13% in 1996 to .087 in 05 (Zinc) and .12 (Phosphorus) to .08 in 05.
all engines benefit from these additives and that includes rotaries. the law going forward removes more ZDDP until there is almost no remaining ZDDP.
racing oil does not fall under the restrictions.
Quaker State Q Racing, for example, contains .2 of Z and .18 of P. Over the road trucks are exempt until 07. you can buy Shell Rotella T at Walmart (Truck oil) and it contains .14 and .13. Pennzoil Racing oil is .196 and .18.
you can tell which oils have reduced wear additives.... a Gold Starburst label and designation ILSAC GF-4. it is safe to conclude all non racing ex-trucks oils now fall into the reduced anti-wear category.
rotary owner had best steer clear of street legal oils.
or...
another option is to add GM Camshaft and Lifter Prelube PN12345501 4 ounces about $6 at the time of your oil change.
the article states, "If running API SM/GF-4 street oils, consider adding a 4 ounce bottle of GM camshaft and lifter lube Part Number 12345501 at every oil change."
NOVEMBER 06
i considered the Hot Rod article to be important and am happy it drew lots of reads. based on the article and the fact i am very happy w Mobil 1, i elected to retain the Mobil 1 and add the GM Camshaft and Lifter Prelube at every (3000 mile) oilchange during my 06 season.
i have 2 observations...
during approximately 3000 miles of mapping, logging, testing i noticed my compression rising on a linear basis. based on my AVCR vacuum readings in mm/Hg at idle i increased vacuum almost 10% during the 3000 miles. the highest reading was my last reading. was the additive responsible? i have no idea. my motor started the season w 7800 miles so it wasn't in the break in process during 06.
the second observation was when i dumped the oil i noticed that i could see the additive... it was a darker non-mixed fluid within my fairly clean oil.
there have been lots of comments as to whether the rotary needs antiwear (no camshaft etc) but i will continue to spend my $6 at each oil change until i feel real lucky.
JULY 08 update
i don't recall the specific anti-wear additive removal schedule but it is safe to say we have less protection each year.
since last i updated this thread (Nov 06) my motor has remained in my car and was busy on the Beyond Redline Performance dyno in 07. we did 43 2000-4000 4th gear full power runs and lots of on the road fun. thanks in part to my methanol AI system the motor made 364 foot pounds of torque at 15.8 psi.
when i put the car away for the winter last Nov it showed the highest vacuum ever.
same deal in 08. my motor now pulls just over 17 inches of vacuum at 937 rpm idle. this is w large primary and secondary extended ports and a big exhaust port.
12,000 miles and built by me.
as mentioned before, i run Mobil 1 5-30 weight oil and i add 4 oz of GM's Camshaft/lifter prelube part number 12345501. about $6 per.
i have been specifically directed by my go to guy, who recently made over 1000 rwhp w his 100% methanol NHRA drag 13 BREW to run nothing but 5-30 weight. until i run faster than 7.58 at 186 i will follow his advice as his motors last.
i solicited Mobil 1 for sponsorship when i was racing and they were a primary sponsor for 6 years. all i have to say here is i use all of Mobil 1's products and they have worked for me. if my friend says 5-30 i say "thanks for the advice."
i do think that a great deal of the reason my motor is still gaining compression is the GM additive. i use it in all my cars and my Correct Craft ski boat. i have a Mazda Millenia (winter car) w 198,000 miles and prior to using the GM additive had just a touch of lifter noise on startup. since i started using the additive that noise is history.
so at this point our options are to run race oil w the anti wear in it or regular oil w the additive.
and please, don't give me the "our motors don't have high wear requirements because they don't have camshafts."
go to GMPartsDirect.com and order yourself a case.
then watch your compression rise
howard coleman
the June (06) issue of Hot Rod magazine (p 125) contains an article entitled: "When Good Cams Go Bad." while the report discusses an alarming 3 year trend in camshaft/lifter failures the significance of the primary culprit probably should be considered by all rotary owners.
a major engine builder is quoted as seeing more camshaft/lifter failures in the last 3 years than the prior 30.
while a number of reasons are considered one of the key conclusions is the recently reformulated standards for motor oil.
unfortunately i wasn't able to copy the article but here's an executive summary:
approx 4 years ago the auto manufactures, oil companies and the government (always bad to get them together) met to discuss an issue the regulators had re the effects of the PRIMARY ANTI-WEAR ADDITIVES in oil and their effects on catalytic converter life.
the additives are primarily zinc and phosphorus (referred to as ZDDP) they act as sacrificial items and take the mechanical wear in lieu of the engines components.
due to the fact that current motors use roller rockers/followers the industry didn't need as much wear protection as in the past, and didn't want to fight it out w the govt auto companies capitulated, er agreed.
the article features a table showing % of the 2 elements going from .13% in 1996 to .087 in 05 (Zinc) and .12 (Phosphorus) to .08 in 05.
all engines benefit from these additives and that includes rotaries. the law going forward removes more ZDDP until there is almost no remaining ZDDP.
racing oil does not fall under the restrictions.
Quaker State Q Racing, for example, contains .2 of Z and .18 of P. Over the road trucks are exempt until 07. you can buy Shell Rotella T at Walmart (Truck oil) and it contains .14 and .13. Pennzoil Racing oil is .196 and .18.
you can tell which oils have reduced wear additives.... a Gold Starburst label and designation ILSAC GF-4. it is safe to conclude all non racing ex-trucks oils now fall into the reduced anti-wear category.
rotary owner had best steer clear of street legal oils.
or...
another option is to add GM Camshaft and Lifter Prelube PN12345501 4 ounces about $6 at the time of your oil change.
the article states, "If running API SM/GF-4 street oils, consider adding a 4 ounce bottle of GM camshaft and lifter lube Part Number 12345501 at every oil change."
NOVEMBER 06
i considered the Hot Rod article to be important and am happy it drew lots of reads. based on the article and the fact i am very happy w Mobil 1, i elected to retain the Mobil 1 and add the GM Camshaft and Lifter Prelube at every (3000 mile) oilchange during my 06 season.
i have 2 observations...
during approximately 3000 miles of mapping, logging, testing i noticed my compression rising on a linear basis. based on my AVCR vacuum readings in mm/Hg at idle i increased vacuum almost 10% during the 3000 miles. the highest reading was my last reading. was the additive responsible? i have no idea. my motor started the season w 7800 miles so it wasn't in the break in process during 06.
the second observation was when i dumped the oil i noticed that i could see the additive... it was a darker non-mixed fluid within my fairly clean oil.
there have been lots of comments as to whether the rotary needs antiwear (no camshaft etc) but i will continue to spend my $6 at each oil change until i feel real lucky.
JULY 08 update
i don't recall the specific anti-wear additive removal schedule but it is safe to say we have less protection each year.
since last i updated this thread (Nov 06) my motor has remained in my car and was busy on the Beyond Redline Performance dyno in 07. we did 43 2000-4000 4th gear full power runs and lots of on the road fun. thanks in part to my methanol AI system the motor made 364 foot pounds of torque at 15.8 psi.
when i put the car away for the winter last Nov it showed the highest vacuum ever.
same deal in 08. my motor now pulls just over 17 inches of vacuum at 937 rpm idle. this is w large primary and secondary extended ports and a big exhaust port.
12,000 miles and built by me.
as mentioned before, i run Mobil 1 5-30 weight oil and i add 4 oz of GM's Camshaft/lifter prelube part number 12345501. about $6 per.
i have been specifically directed by my go to guy, who recently made over 1000 rwhp w his 100% methanol NHRA drag 13 BREW to run nothing but 5-30 weight. until i run faster than 7.58 at 186 i will follow his advice as his motors last.
i solicited Mobil 1 for sponsorship when i was racing and they were a primary sponsor for 6 years. all i have to say here is i use all of Mobil 1's products and they have worked for me. if my friend says 5-30 i say "thanks for the advice."
i do think that a great deal of the reason my motor is still gaining compression is the GM additive. i use it in all my cars and my Correct Craft ski boat. i have a Mazda Millenia (winter car) w 198,000 miles and prior to using the GM additive had just a touch of lifter noise on startup. since i started using the additive that noise is history.
so at this point our options are to run race oil w the anti wear in it or regular oil w the additive.
and please, don't give me the "our motors don't have high wear requirements because they don't have camshafts."
go to GMPartsDirect.com and order yourself a case.
then watch your compression rise
howard coleman
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 07-12-08 at 12:05 PM.
07-12-08, 01:50 PM
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yes, i would like to know also!
great information.
my wife's car has a slight lifter noise (has ever since she got it)
im going to try some of this stuff to see how it works.
07-12-08, 02:14 PM
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I am running an OMP bypass from Rotary Aviation. But I am still running dino oil for my mail oil with a TCW3 2-cycle oil from a separate oil reservoir. Howard, are you doing this or something else? Or are you running it stock, with the Mobil 1 lubircating the seals?
07-12-08, 02:29 PM
#7
Mobil 1 synthetic?
I am going to be using a separate reservoir for my OMP, and was planning on this setup:
Engine- Mobil 1 10w30 full synthetic (due to being autocrossed in 100+ degree weather, unless there is a good reason for me to run 5w)
OMP - I am considering 2 stroke oil here. Is there a preferred brand and weight based on additive information?
I am going to be using a separate reservoir for my OMP, and was planning on this setup:
Engine- Mobil 1 10w30 full synthetic (due to being autocrossed in 100+ degree weather, unless there is a good reason for me to run 5w)
OMP - I am considering 2 stroke oil here. Is there a preferred brand and weight based on additive information?
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07-12-08, 02:36 PM
#8
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i do not run the external OEM oil pump.
you DO want synthetic oil lubing your main bearings, stationary gears, rotor bearings and thrust bearings. you DON'T want synthetic in your combustion chamber (from the external oil pump).
i premix using any TCW3 rated 2 cycle oil, generally the cheap WalMart Tech brand by the gallon. about 1/2 oz per gallon of gasoline. as i mentioned i run Mobil 1 5-30 and change it every 3000 miles. i have recently switched to the Purolator Pure One oil filter as many think it has an advantage.
and of course i use one container (4 oz) of the GM additive.
recently i installed FJO's new digital oil pressure and temperature gauges. the temp gauge sender is located in the pan. i gutted the oil level sensor and welded an aluminum bung to it. see pics, post 308 in my thread in the suspension section. (Howard Coleman's FD chassis/setup)
i do run two mazda oil coolers.. see my thread in this section: "dual oil coolers cheap."
hc
you DO want synthetic oil lubing your main bearings, stationary gears, rotor bearings and thrust bearings. you DON'T want synthetic in your combustion chamber (from the external oil pump).
i premix using any TCW3 rated 2 cycle oil, generally the cheap WalMart Tech brand by the gallon. about 1/2 oz per gallon of gasoline. as i mentioned i run Mobil 1 5-30 and change it every 3000 miles. i have recently switched to the Purolator Pure One oil filter as many think it has an advantage.
and of course i use one container (4 oz) of the GM additive.
recently i installed FJO's new digital oil pressure and temperature gauges. the temp gauge sender is located in the pan. i gutted the oil level sensor and welded an aluminum bung to it. see pics, post 308 in my thread in the suspension section. (Howard Coleman's FD chassis/setup)
i do run two mazda oil coolers.. see my thread in this section: "dual oil coolers cheap."
hc
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 07-12-08 at 02:46 PM.
07-12-08, 02:55 PM
#9
So I am on the right lines of thinking then. synthetic in the oil pan. 2 stroke in the reservoir for the OMP.
Would you say there is any reason to run 5w30 or 10w30 synthetic for an FD being run in 100+ degree summer days... autocrossed. Speeds will rarely exceed 65.
Are there any 2 stroke oils with ideal characteristics for our engines?
Would you say there is any reason to run 5w30 or 10w30 synthetic for an FD being run in 100+ degree summer days... autocrossed. Speeds will rarely exceed 65.
Are there any 2 stroke oils with ideal characteristics for our engines?
07-12-08, 03:55 PM
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every motor ive pulled apart in the last year and a half or so, has shown major bearing wear, ive seen one that was worn down past the copper! FD engines, follow this trend, but the bearings look worse at lower mileages, and even scarier, have a tendancy to have the front main bearing fail catastrophically.
the only real difference i see, is time, and zddp...
07-12-08, 05:22 PM
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Monkman, seeing as HC runs the cheap Wal-Mart Tech stuff, and I run Havoline stuff, as long as it's TC-W3, I think you're OK. Just looking for an ashless burn (no deposits). FYI, here's a pic (http://home.comcast.net/~mpython3/P8071183.JPG) of my oil reservoir. It's the canister right next to my M2 intake. I like it because I can see the oil level easily.
07-12-08, 06:22 PM
#16
I think the JEG's part you linked to may be a different product even though the JEG's text suggests it is the same. The GM part number (#88862586) is for what looks like a different product and the price is significantly lower ($20 for 16oz vs. $16 for 4oz). Confused.
07-12-08, 07:06 PM
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the GM additive can be purchased at your local GM dealership and it may be purchased by the (4 oz) bottle. retail $8, i tell the parts guy that it can be bought for $6 from GMPartsDirect.com and so he sells it to me in the 6 dollar range.
note: these are 07 prices.
while i don't know for sure i assume that racing oil is still exempt from the regs.
also. FWIW, my guy is adamnent that you run 5-30... not 10-30. when he tells me things i listen real carefully. you may run what you wish. his 13B leaves the line at 10,000 rpm and makes over 1000 rear wheel hp. fourteen 1600 CC injectors running 76% duty cycle...
5-30 for me
hc
note: these are 07 prices.
while i don't know for sure i assume that racing oil is still exempt from the regs.
also. FWIW, my guy is adamnent that you run 5-30... not 10-30. when he tells me things i listen real carefully. you may run what you wish. his 13B leaves the line at 10,000 rpm and makes over 1000 rear wheel hp. fourteen 1600 CC injectors running 76% duty cycle...
5-30 for me
hc
07-12-08, 09:34 PM
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07-13-08, 08:18 AM
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Interlude:
thanks for finding the article. everyone should give it a read.
i just checked w GMPartsDirect.com and it is $7.35 a 4 oz bottle. i need to order another 12 unit case. BTW, the bottles are excellent for your 2 cycle premix.
as to the links in post 15, thanks but...
the Summit offering appears to be the item but may be incorrectly priced at $16.47generally Summit is quite competitive pricewise so it might be worth a call to them to point out that GMPartsDirect is selling the item for $7.35.
the Jeg's offering is probably not the same concentration. a quart for $19.99.
J9FD3S:
my motor observations are similar to yours. i am seeing more coppered bearings in the last 2 years.
as to whether various oils are exempt due to them being "race" oil.... just look on the container: you can tell which oils have reduced wear additives.... designation ILSAC GF-4.
hc
thanks for finding the article. everyone should give it a read.
i just checked w GMPartsDirect.com and it is $7.35 a 4 oz bottle. i need to order another 12 unit case. BTW, the bottles are excellent for your 2 cycle premix.
as to the links in post 15, thanks but...
the Summit offering appears to be the item but may be incorrectly priced at $16.47generally Summit is quite competitive pricewise so it might be worth a call to them to point out that GMPartsDirect is selling the item for $7.35.
the Jeg's offering is probably not the same concentration. a quart for $19.99.
J9FD3S:
my motor observations are similar to yours. i am seeing more coppered bearings in the last 2 years.
as to whether various oils are exempt due to them being "race" oil.... just look on the container: you can tell which oils have reduced wear additives.... designation ILSAC GF-4.
hc
07-13-08, 05:30 PM
#21
There seems to another altnerative - ZDDP Plus
http://www.zddplus.com
Haven't yet read all their site, but you can buy 6 bottles rather than the 12 that GM requires.
http://www.zddplus.com
Haven't yet read all their site, but you can buy 6 bottles rather than the 12 that GM requires.
