TT oil leak
09-05-11, 02:22 AM
#1
TT oil leak
Hi All,
I just picked up a 93 R1 with in really good shape, check here.
Today I dug into the passenger side of the motor looking for the oil leak.
I pulled the air box, y pipe, air pump and DP. I need to have another look in the morning, when I'm rested, but it looks like 80% of the oil is coming from the secondary turbo (back one, right?) and 20% from the primary. The secondary's portion of the y-pipe is heavily coated with oil inside.
The outside of the turbos were coated with oil as is most everything under and behind them including the transmission splash pan and cat heat shield. At first glance it looks to be coming from the lines that feel oil to the turbo but they are on tight and look good.
So, question for everyone: Is this a sign that the turbos have had it or are there other things to check / ways to interpret this?
thanks,
James
I just picked up a 93 R1 with in really good shape, check here.
Today I dug into the passenger side of the motor looking for the oil leak.
I pulled the air box, y pipe, air pump and DP. I need to have another look in the morning, when I'm rested, but it looks like 80% of the oil is coming from the secondary turbo (back one, right?) and 20% from the primary. The secondary's portion of the y-pipe is heavily coated with oil inside.
The outside of the turbos were coated with oil as is most everything under and behind them including the transmission splash pan and cat heat shield. At first glance it looks to be coming from the lines that feel oil to the turbo but they are on tight and look good.
So, question for everyone: Is this a sign that the turbos have had it or are there other things to check / ways to interpret this?
thanks,
James
09-05-11, 12:07 PM
#3
OK folks, now that I've slept on this here's my next set of thoughts:
1) The primary turbo's portion of the Y pipe has about the same amount of oil on the inside as the secondary. It's just baked on and blackened so it looks worst than it is. Would someone chime in here? Is this normal to see? My 7 still has the pre-cat so I'm guessing that this is what's causing the baking.
2) Has anyone had oil on the inch wide strip of metal that connects the exhaust turbines to the compressor housings? I have it all the way from the oil inlets, around the water connections and dripping down to and on the oil returns. I'm thinking (at the moment) that I should replace the DP and idle the engine for a couple of minutes. Now that I've cleaned the oil off maybe I'll be able to see where it leaks.
3) Has anyone ever seen the turbos spit oil back out onto the area that I'm describing and from somewhere other than the oil inlets?
later,
James
1) The primary turbo's portion of the Y pipe has about the same amount of oil on the inside as the secondary. It's just baked on and blackened so it looks worst than it is. Would someone chime in here? Is this normal to see? My 7 still has the pre-cat so I'm guessing that this is what's causing the baking.
2) Has anyone had oil on the inch wide strip of metal that connects the exhaust turbines to the compressor housings? I have it all the way from the oil inlets, around the water connections and dripping down to and on the oil returns. I'm thinking (at the moment) that I should replace the DP and idle the engine for a couple of minutes. Now that I've cleaned the oil off maybe I'll be able to see where it leaks.
3) Has anyone ever seen the turbos spit oil back out onto the area that I'm describing and from somewhere other than the oil inlets?
later,
James
09-05-11, 12:25 PM
#4
You should probably remove the turbos and replace the gaskets around it like the oil lines and stuff and while you have them out inspect them for signs of damage and anywhere they could be leaking. And the DP couldn't hurt anything.
09-17-11, 09:57 AM
#6
turbos are out
Hi All,
The turbos are out of the car. I was pleasantly surprised to find that they weren't that difficult to remove. Comments: everything else in the general vicinity has to come out, having multiple options in the tool department helps, penetrating fluid is your friend and patience is needed.
I'm glad that I pulled them rather than must replacing the oil crush rings. They were coated in oil as is everything at and below their level. Time to pull out the rags and start cleaning.
No sense in posting new pictures. Here's what they looked like before I pulled them.
It's not obvious where the oil is slipping past the copper crush washers or if it is leaking from somewhere else so I'm running on intuition. Intuition and the fact that so many threads have found replacing the washers to be the solution.
Other things to check while I have the turbos out?
Today I'm planning on using a pressure washer to remove the oil and dirt that has piled up in the lower engine bay. After this the LIM is coming off. I suspect that it is leaking and this is the perfect opportunity to replace the gasket.
James
P.S. AdamC, I have a feeling that you are correct. The oil pan is leaking. I'll see what happens after I fix the turbo oil leak and clean things up.
The turbos are out of the car. I was pleasantly surprised to find that they weren't that difficult to remove. Comments: everything else in the general vicinity has to come out, having multiple options in the tool department helps, penetrating fluid is your friend and patience is needed.
I'm glad that I pulled them rather than must replacing the oil crush rings. They were coated in oil as is everything at and below their level. Time to pull out the rags and start cleaning.
No sense in posting new pictures. Here's what they looked like before I pulled them.
It's not obvious where the oil is slipping past the copper crush washers or if it is leaking from somewhere else so I'm running on intuition. Intuition and the fact that so many threads have found replacing the washers to be the solution.
Other things to check while I have the turbos out?
Today I'm planning on using a pressure washer to remove the oil and dirt that has piled up in the lower engine bay. After this the LIM is coming off. I suspect that it is leaking and this is the perfect opportunity to replace the gasket.
James
P.S. AdamC, I have a feeling that you are correct. The oil pan is leaking. I'll see what happens after I fix the turbo oil leak and clean things up.
09-18-11, 12:08 AM
#7
You may want to inspect the oil injectors and be insure you're not leaking oil down onto and behind the LIM. The one time I had an oil leak, this is what it turned out to be and it took me a while to chase it down. Be sure to at least tighten the LIM down while you have access to it.
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09-26-11, 08:28 PM
#8
The Dangers of Digging Into a 17 Year Old Car
Hi All,
Well, I've been very steadily pulling pieces off, removing old gaskets and inspecting parts.
Several of the coolant hoses are bloated, time to call Ray at Malloy and pick up a full set.
The LIM is off ... hmm ... a piece of the gasket is blown off of that small port, just below one of the intake ports. It looks like exhaust was flowing out? Also, three of the bolts came out with my fingers. It's definitely time for a new LIM gasket. I'm glad that I pulled that off.
Might as well replace all of the gas lines and FPD while I'm in here. It's just not worth the chance of a fire.
Might as well pull the injectors and send them to RC Engineering.
The rat's nest has a broken solenoid nipple. Might as well pull this, test the solenoids and replace the vacuum hose.
The coolant is drained and the hoses are coming off so might as well put in an aluminum radiator ... new thermostat too. Hmm ... that Fluidyne doesn't quite extend to the end of the stock fan cowling. I remember my last FD having cooling trouble in hot weather. Time to pick up some weather stripping from Home Depot and close that gap. Also, I'd better close the gap that's taken care of on the stock radiator by the foam on the sides.
The stock down-pipe is off, might as well pick up a used one … and drop it of to be coated ... new O2 sensor too.
Wow, there is oil everywhere. I think that I've spent about half a day in total cleaning it off from the engine, trans, etc., etc., etc.
One of the past batteries must have leaked acid and been ignored for quite some time. Time to wet sand the rust away and do a bit of painting.
Well, since the coils had to come off to remove the rat's nest to remove the primary injectors ... so ... might as well replace the plugs and wires.
OK so every vacuum hose on this car needs to be replaced. They are all rigid and brittle. The only reason that the car was boosting properly is due to a previous hose wiring job. Even with this, some of the hoses just fell off when I pulled the rat's nest. Others I cut (more like crumbled) in half to avoid breaking nipples.
Wow ... Ray is great. I've ordered quite a few hoses, gaskets and even a few missing plastic body rivets … and an FC thermoswitch.
The dash pot is shot. I found a used one.
MUST RESIST THE URGE TO RELOCATE THE BATTERY ... just because it's out of the car. I need to stop somewhere and put the car back together.
OK, the order should be in from Ray in a few days. In the mean time I just checked the trans oil. It's so dark that I can't see my test finger. Might as well change the differential oil too ... Hmm ... I wonder how long it's been since the brakes we're bled.
The part's from Ray had better get here soon. :-p I’m gona pull the engine … LOL … I think that it would have paid for itself in time by saving time with the turbo swap.
So there you have it … be warned … a 17 year old car in great shape still requires a considerable amount of TLC.
Oh, and Speed of light, the oil injector lines appear to be the only thing that doesn't need to be replaced. Go figure.
James
Well, I've been very steadily pulling pieces off, removing old gaskets and inspecting parts.
Several of the coolant hoses are bloated, time to call Ray at Malloy and pick up a full set.
The LIM is off ... hmm ... a piece of the gasket is blown off of that small port, just below one of the intake ports. It looks like exhaust was flowing out? Also, three of the bolts came out with my fingers. It's definitely time for a new LIM gasket. I'm glad that I pulled that off.
Might as well replace all of the gas lines and FPD while I'm in here. It's just not worth the chance of a fire.
Might as well pull the injectors and send them to RC Engineering.
The rat's nest has a broken solenoid nipple. Might as well pull this, test the solenoids and replace the vacuum hose.
The coolant is drained and the hoses are coming off so might as well put in an aluminum radiator ... new thermostat too. Hmm ... that Fluidyne doesn't quite extend to the end of the stock fan cowling. I remember my last FD having cooling trouble in hot weather. Time to pick up some weather stripping from Home Depot and close that gap. Also, I'd better close the gap that's taken care of on the stock radiator by the foam on the sides.
The stock down-pipe is off, might as well pick up a used one … and drop it of to be coated ... new O2 sensor too.
Wow, there is oil everywhere. I think that I've spent about half a day in total cleaning it off from the engine, trans, etc., etc., etc.
One of the past batteries must have leaked acid and been ignored for quite some time. Time to wet sand the rust away and do a bit of painting.
Well, since the coils had to come off to remove the rat's nest to remove the primary injectors ... so ... might as well replace the plugs and wires.
OK so every vacuum hose on this car needs to be replaced. They are all rigid and brittle. The only reason that the car was boosting properly is due to a previous hose wiring job. Even with this, some of the hoses just fell off when I pulled the rat's nest. Others I cut (more like crumbled) in half to avoid breaking nipples.
Wow ... Ray is great. I've ordered quite a few hoses, gaskets and even a few missing plastic body rivets … and an FC thermoswitch.
The dash pot is shot. I found a used one.
MUST RESIST THE URGE TO RELOCATE THE BATTERY ... just because it's out of the car. I need to stop somewhere and put the car back together.
OK, the order should be in from Ray in a few days. In the mean time I just checked the trans oil. It's so dark that I can't see my test finger. Might as well change the differential oil too ... Hmm ... I wonder how long it's been since the brakes we're bled.
The part's from Ray had better get here soon. :-p I’m gona pull the engine … LOL … I think that it would have paid for itself in time by saving time with the turbo swap.
So there you have it … be warned … a 17 year old car in great shape still requires a considerable amount of TLC.
Oh, and Speed of light, the oil injector lines appear to be the only thing that doesn't need to be replaced. Go figure.
James
09-28-11, 11:51 AM
#10
parts arrived from Malloy
I feel like I owe Ray at Malloy a free plug.
I went back and forth with him many times via email in order to check prices and arive at just over a page of gaskets, hoses, and miscellaneous bits.
The order just arrived (last night) and it occurred to me that his experience, communication and detail-oriented-manner-of-operating are a great asset to this community. Not to mention that his prices are very reasonable for OEM parts.
Ray Crowe
Malloy Mazda
hmkparts@aol.com
+1 (888) 533-3400
P.S. thanks twinsinside!
I went back and forth with him many times via email in order to check prices and arive at just over a page of gaskets, hoses, and miscellaneous bits.
The order just arrived (last night) and it occurred to me that his experience, communication and detail-oriented-manner-of-operating are a great asset to this community. Not to mention that his prices are very reasonable for OEM parts.
Ray Crowe
Malloy Mazda
hmkparts@aol.com
+1 (888) 533-3400
P.S. thanks twinsinside!
10-05-11, 10:42 PM
#11
update
Hi All,
So I've been putting an hour here and an hour there into the car.
Few interesting notes.
1) I can't find torque specs for the banjo bolts on the secondary fuel rail line or the oil feel lines for the turbos anywhere ... FSM or this forum. I did come across this on the 2nd gen forum though.
Referring to the brake lines: "Soft line banjo bolt 16-22 ft-lbs"
Not perfect but it made feel better given that I'd tightened both of the banjo bolts that I mentioned above to 25 foot pounds.
2) In testing all of the solenoids and check valves I discovered a large amount of activated carbon in the stock catch can. It made sense given that both the fuel vapor purge solenoid and the related check valve were stuck open. Since I had another catch can I cut the one with carbon in it open. I wanted to know if the carbon stopped there or if the motor was sucking it up. What a relief, it has a coarse filter that stopped all of the carbon. Good to know ...
3) I took another long look at the mounting surface for the copper crush washers for the turbo oil feed lines. The banjo bolts and the turbo (but not the feed lines) had bits of brown something (burned oil?) around them. Carb cleaner wouldn't remove it so I used a bit of 1000 grit wet paper. It came off with minor effort. Hopefully this was evidence of a former oil leak ... and a sign that I fixed the same leak.
later,
James
So I've been putting an hour here and an hour there into the car.
Few interesting notes.
1) I can't find torque specs for the banjo bolts on the secondary fuel rail line or the oil feel lines for the turbos anywhere ... FSM or this forum. I did come across this on the 2nd gen forum though.
Referring to the brake lines: "Soft line banjo bolt 16-22 ft-lbs"
Not perfect but it made feel better given that I'd tightened both of the banjo bolts that I mentioned above to 25 foot pounds.
2) In testing all of the solenoids and check valves I discovered a large amount of activated carbon in the stock catch can. It made sense given that both the fuel vapor purge solenoid and the related check valve were stuck open. Since I had another catch can I cut the one with carbon in it open. I wanted to know if the carbon stopped there or if the motor was sucking it up. What a relief, it has a coarse filter that stopped all of the carbon. Good to know ...
3) I took another long look at the mounting surface for the copper crush washers for the turbo oil feed lines. The banjo bolts and the turbo (but not the feed lines) had bits of brown something (burned oil?) around them. Carb cleaner wouldn't remove it so I used a bit of 1000 grit wet paper. It came off with minor effort. Hopefully this was evidence of a former oil leak ... and a sign that I fixed the same leak.
later,
James
10-06-11, 05:05 AM
#12
James
You should really replace the two oil injector check valves and OMP oil lines while you are that deep into it. If these fail (and they do) you will compromise the engine oiling and you will see oil in the primary compressor inlet if the check valves fail.
You should really replace the two oil injector check valves and OMP oil lines while you are that deep into it. If these fail (and they do) you will compromise the engine oiling and you will see oil in the primary compressor inlet if the check valves fail.
10-24-11, 09:51 PM
#13
back together ... results and next steps
Hi All,
So it's back together. Here's a short list of what's been done and what I found:
- pulled the turbos, replaced the oil banjo bolt washers (leaking), replaced the turbos and all related gaskets
- pulled the lim, replaced the gasket (partially blown out!), three of the bolts were so loose I used my fingers to remove them!!!
- replaced two questionable rat's nest solenoids, replaced all the check valves with viton ones, replaced the purge solenoid and check valve
- sanded under the battery tray (excessive corrosion), pressure washed and repainted
- changed the trans and dif fluid
- installed new plugs, wires and an HKS twin power
- jet hot 2000 coated DP, O2 sensor, aluminum radiator, AST, all 14 water hoses, coolant, thermostat and FC thermoswitch
- all vacuum hose replaced (20' or so) ... just standard Gates hoses
- replaced the vacuum lines for the brake booster ... zero flexibility, one just cracked when I pulled the UIM
- lots of missing 10mm bolts
- FPD and fuel lines
- lots and lots of cleaning ... there was oil everywhere underneath
- new fuel filter and all related fuel hose
- swapped my Greddy SP for an RB DT
I think that that's it ... wow ... $1500 (less the HKS Twin Power) in parts that were all sorely needed. Many of the hoses were bulging and just waiting to rip open. Frankly I'm amazed that I did everything for this amount. There are some really good sellers / used deals on this forum.
I drove if to work and back for three days last week. Wow! What a difference. Much smoother idle and running ... all the way around. The DP lets the sound of the turbos spooling through to the cabin
.
Unfortunately, after the driving, there was a new 1/2 teaspoon of oil near the back of the oil pan. It's definitely leaking. At least the turbos were completely dry.
I spent this last weekend picking up an engine crane, "The Right Stuff", etc. I plan on pulling the sub frame and then the oil pan. That last 1/3rd of the oil leak is not going to last much longer!
In the mean time I'm off to bleed fresh fluid into the brakes / clutch and replace the shredded driver's side tie rod boot.
These cars are old enough that even a good specimen needs a lot of love. I've already noticed that one of my motor mounts is shot ... all the more reason to drop the subframe and oil pan.
Oh, and ttmot, you and a lot of reading have convinced me to run pre-mix. Hopefully the OMP lines don't crack on me. At least if they do my motor won't fail from lack of oil.
That's all for this thread folks! I hope that it gives a newcomer
to the FD an idea of what they are getting into. You better love your 7!
So it's back together. Here's a short list of what's been done and what I found:
- pulled the turbos, replaced the oil banjo bolt washers (leaking), replaced the turbos and all related gaskets
- pulled the lim, replaced the gasket (partially blown out!), three of the bolts were so loose I used my fingers to remove them!!!
- replaced two questionable rat's nest solenoids, replaced all the check valves with viton ones, replaced the purge solenoid and check valve
- sanded under the battery tray (excessive corrosion), pressure washed and repainted
- changed the trans and dif fluid
- installed new plugs, wires and an HKS twin power
- jet hot 2000 coated DP, O2 sensor, aluminum radiator, AST, all 14 water hoses, coolant, thermostat and FC thermoswitch
- all vacuum hose replaced (20' or so) ... just standard Gates hoses
- replaced the vacuum lines for the brake booster ... zero flexibility, one just cracked when I pulled the UIM
- lots of missing 10mm bolts
- FPD and fuel lines
- lots and lots of cleaning ... there was oil everywhere underneath
- new fuel filter and all related fuel hose
- swapped my Greddy SP for an RB DT
I think that that's it ... wow ... $1500 (less the HKS Twin Power) in parts that were all sorely needed. Many of the hoses were bulging and just waiting to rip open. Frankly I'm amazed that I did everything for this amount. There are some really good sellers / used deals on this forum.
I drove if to work and back for three days last week. Wow! What a difference. Much smoother idle and running ... all the way around. The DP lets the sound of the turbos spooling through to the cabin
.Unfortunately, after the driving, there was a new 1/2 teaspoon of oil near the back of the oil pan. It's definitely leaking. At least the turbos were completely dry.
I spent this last weekend picking up an engine crane, "The Right Stuff", etc. I plan on pulling the sub frame and then the oil pan. That last 1/3rd of the oil leak is not going to last much longer!
In the mean time I'm off to bleed fresh fluid into the brakes / clutch and replace the shredded driver's side tie rod boot.
These cars are old enough that even a good specimen needs a lot of love. I've already noticed that one of my motor mounts is shot ... all the more reason to drop the subframe and oil pan.
Oh, and ttmot, you and a lot of reading have convinced me to run pre-mix. Hopefully the OMP lines don't crack on me. At least if they do my motor won't fail from lack of oil.
That's all for this thread folks! I hope that it gives a newcomer
to the FD an idea of what they are getting into. You better love your 7!
10-24-11, 11:57 PM
#14
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Reminds me of all the work I put into mine not so long ago. It's amazing once you get in there what you find sometimes.
Regarding the oil pan, there was a recent post (I think in the premix thread) about some sealant permatex makes. I've never tried it but from what I read it fixed their oil leak without re-sealing the oil pan. Might want to give that a look.
Only question I have is what is "Gates" vac hose? Is it high quality thick walled silicone? If not I'd be worried about that stuff collapsing or pinching off.
Regarding the oil pan, there was a recent post (I think in the premix thread) about some sealant permatex makes. I've never tried it but from what I read it fixed their oil leak without re-sealing the oil pan. Might want to give that a look.
Only question I have is what is "Gates" vac hose? Is it high quality thick walled silicone? If not I'd be worried about that stuff collapsing or pinching off.
10-25-11, 10:44 AM
#15
Hi Twinsinside,
It is a crazy amount of work. I would go so far as to call it an external engine rebuild.
I'll dig around the premix thread but I'm fairly sure that the Permatex sealant is called "The Right Stuff". It would be great if the pan didn't have to come off but I can't imagine how the leaking will stop without removing the pan.
Gates hose is the high end of the typical stuff that an Autoparts store caries. It's black rubber hose but it's definitely thick walled and will stand up to boost / vacuum. I found myself removing the UIM so often on my last FD that I had it down to a 30 min remove, do what needed doing and replace ritual. So, I guess that it doesn't bother me to go with something less expensive than silicon for now. When the water seals go I'll drop the money on silicon then.
James
It is a crazy amount of work. I would go so far as to call it an external engine rebuild.
I'll dig around the premix thread but I'm fairly sure that the Permatex sealant is called "The Right Stuff". It would be great if the pan didn't have to come off but I can't imagine how the leaking will stop without removing the pan.
Gates hose is the high end of the typical stuff that an Autoparts store caries. It's black rubber hose but it's definitely thick walled and will stand up to boost / vacuum. I found myself removing the UIM so often on my last FD that I had it down to a 30 min remove, do what needed doing and replace ritual. So, I guess that it doesn't bother me to go with something less expensive than silicon for now. When the water seals go I'll drop the money on silicon then.
James
10-26-11, 01:44 AM
#16
+1 on the Gates hose. I buy it from CarQuest. This stuff has worked so well for me that I don't see any need to 'upgrade' to anything else. Most of the other 'upgrade' stuff I've tried over the years hasn't worked out as well or wasn't worth it.
10-26-11, 10:21 AM
#17
http://www.permatex.com/documents/PX...aynSeal.SS.pdf
Interesting stuff. I might just have tried it if my motor mount didn't need replacing. It might have been a good way to hold out until the inevitable rebuild of my original 93 engine.
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