muibubbles

iTrader: (36)

ahh yeah, i always seem to forget cnc is anything computer controled. i always seem the thing its a removal processes neglecting things like brakes etc..

Now the next question is is the resistance really THAT much of an issue? I'm assume the issue of resistance is coming from the path of the oil in the cooler and the "extra bends" it makes inside the cooler before it exits. IMO that seems so futile that it would cause extra strain on the oil pump... Wouldnt that be the same concept as saying dont use 180* fitttings because they cause more resistance and will put more stress on your oil pump? theoretically the internals of an oil cooler are just like hose... or am i understanding this completely wrong?

theorie

iTrader: (31)

"Smart *** card"

Seems like the thread was pretty on topic to me. You were asked multiple times -why- you want to use a multi-pass, and never answered. Dale said it wasn't needed for most cases, and I suggested some examples where it might help (e.g. oil-cooled-only turbo). People suggested you get a kit, you and someone else said it was too expensive, so I explained the reason why kits tend to cost more. How is any of that off-topic?

No need to get your panties in a twist because people are questioning your unstated-justification for wanting to use multi-pass coolers.

reo

iTrader: (4)

Single pass vs multi-pass makes no difference. it is how much oil it will flow at what pressure drop and how much it will cool it. the stock fc cooler is multi pass with a built in bypass, I just switched from a Brit 11x4x2 cooler to a 11x12x2 cooler, both setrab look alikes the new one was less than $80 and holds temp below 200, would have used a fc cooler but there is no room. The original poster has a point- an adaquate cooler should be less than $150 and if he is a fair fabricator the total install should go under $300. to answer his question-- the setrab is just fine but he needs low enough restriction to keep oil flowing as factory and he needs at least as much cooling capacity as a stock fc cooler and to me it dose not look like the one he is looking at is nearly large enough. Come hot weather and adding a turbo i doubt that mine will be enough, so i have a beehive to add and possibly put a fc cooler in a side pod. No one publishes specks. for their coolers but fin area/ thickness gives an idea of the cooling and connection size sort of indicates the flow.

MOBEONER

iTrader: (18)

I agree with dale. I dont track my car but my mentail illness told me i needed a dual mocal kit with thermostats and the whole 9 yards, now my temps are super low and it takes forever to warm up

RotorMotor

iTrader: (5)

If your thermostat(s) are functioning properly you should be bypassing the entire cooling loop when not at operating temp, so either your thermostat is installed backwards, incorrectly, or your water coolant thermostat is stuck open. Also, I'm not sure why you're running two... only needed in the stock system configuration. A proper aftermarket dual oil cooler system will do nothing to warm up times... something is wrong. Shoot me a PM if you want and I'd be happy to help you get it sorted.

MOBEONER

iTrader: (18)

It's possible that there is something wrong because when water temps are 190F the coolers are around 110f or so. Once on the hiway cruising it reaches 180- 210


Sorry 4 the thread jack bubbles

RotorMotor

iTrader: (5)

Yes, the resistance IS really that much of an issue. If you break your oil pump you break the rest of your motor minutes later without warning. The point is to keep the oil in the cooler longer, so it's snaked back and fourth through more paths. Ask yourself this... does it take you longer to drive a windy road or a straight road of the same distance. There is additional restriction caused by additional number of rows, internal structure, and number of bends.

Let's do a thought experiment... take two identical 25 row coolers... one has oil enter one side and pass through, the other has oil snake back and fourth through EACH row of the cooler (so 25 passes). You in essence have one cooler that is a long straw, and another cooler that is an open passthrough. The oil stays in the 25pass cooler 25 times longer but the resistance is heavily increased. That's the tradeoff.... time in cooler to cool, vs resistance. And if you have as much surface area as you need to cool the oil in the 25 row free-pass-through cooler, why would you bother increasing the time that oil takes to pass through the cooler if you've got ample surface area. Like I've said twice before, it's for limited space and limited volume applications, neither of which we're faced with here. Hope that's clearer.

theorie

iTrader: (31)

Isn't it supposed to have the screw heads on the other side? Like this:

MOBEONER

iTrader: (18)

Ummmmm, I guess now I know what I am doing tomorrow..

SakeBomb Garage

iTrader: (17)

Yes, your thermostat has been installed completely backwards . The internals of that thermostat may actually be damaged now and you might consider replacing it with a new unit as it may no longer internally seal correctly.

The way it works is the center section has a thermal pellet which moves once the unit reaches 180degrees. Before that the ports at the top (in the picture that Theorie linked above) are connected together... sending oil directly from the front cover back to the oil pedestal, completely bipassing the coolers. When that pellet/valve moves at 180 deg. the oil is routed in a 'U' so that the top left port goes to the bottom left port (cooler input) flows through the coolers/lines back to the bottom right port (cooler return) and out to the top right (oil filter pedestal). By installing it backwards you've somehow used the high oil pressure from the oil pump to blow oil backwards through the two lower ports (in Theories picture) that are never internally connected.

You're fortunate that the valve was luckily able to be pushed backwards enough by the 120psi oil pressure, or you would have starved your motor of oil... Anyway, my honest recommendation is seriously consider replacing/rebuilding it... that thermal pellet could be seriously damaged, pushed backwards, or wedged somehow... I wouldn't risk it at this point, especially if it's been running like that for some time. It's really easy to put this thing in wrong, I wish they made it in a way that prevented incorrect installation somehow

PS Is that thermostat being supported by some method other than the lines themselves? It needs to be bolted to the motor!! You will crack something if it's not supported (thermostat, fitting, or front cover itself). We include a bracket that physically bolts the thermostat to the AC/PS pully. You MUST support the thermostat, it really can't just hang there like that .


PPS For all the naysayers of the "premade kits that cost too much" this is a good example of the benefit of them. We include a 30 page step by step detailed pictorial installation guide with all our kits to prevent errors like this and many other possible hangups. The guide alone is invaluable and took us a long time to create, not to mention the kit itself.

http://sakebombgarage.com/wp/?page_id=108

muibubbles

iTrader: (36)

Yes i agree 100% about the resistance, it all makes sense. But i meant is the resistance we're talking about in the oil cooler that much of a deal?

as i stated early "Wouldnt that be the same concept as saying dont use 180* fitttings because they cause more resistance and will put more stress on your oil pump? theoretically the internals of an oil cooler are just like hose... or am i understanding this completely wrong?"

just curious because ive never hear any debates about fitting bends, and this seems to be the same logic in comparison to the oil cooler internals

RotorMotor

iTrader: (5)

Test it and find out, if you blow your motor then yes it was too much internal resistance for the oil pump to sustain at high rpm.

I feel like I answered the same questions so many times in so many detailed ways... with so many analogy and examples... I'm not sure how else to answer it. So instead of trying to answer, it would be more productive for me to ask you to answer:

~Why do you want to use a multi-pass cooler?
~What do you hope to gain from it? (and in what scenarios do you hope to achieve those gains)
~Would you be willing to take the advice of people in the know that advised you against using them? (or would you continue to look for someone out there to say yes go try it so you can be different)

I don't think you understand the fundamentals of how oil coolers work and the effects of fluid resistance on other components. You know like how your tires are inflated to 30psi? Imagine 4 times that 120psi. It's a lot of pressure and internal resistance in the oil coolers will increase that pressure (like how clogged arteries cause your blood pressure to rise, and makes your heart work much harder to deliver the same amount of blood as a healthy person).

Yes the fittings have some impact on resistance within the system but it's for the most part laminar flow (not turbulant) like within the oil coolers. Yes, a system made of all straight fittings would have less resistance, but the effect on the oil pump is not the same as internal diversion w/in the oil cooler. To dumb it down, if you use a multi-pass you're in essence running 4 oil coolers. It's not exactly analogous but maybe that's a better way of explaining it. I'm all out of analogies.

speedjunkie

iTrader: (3)

Sorry to hijack, but I got back and looked at my thermostat and it's installed with the bolt heads to the passenger side as well. I've had it like this for several years with no issues, so are you guys ABSOLUTELY sure the bolt heads are supposed to go the other way? I just want to make sure before I change it haha.

Rx7aholic

iTrader: (22)

Yes it's installed backward, alwasy remember bolt head is always return, if u take you take out the theromstat you should see a spring on openning and other openning you will see a round metal rod ( the metal rod is the return to the engine) which means the bolt head should be facing the driver side.

13bturborx7

iTrader: (34)

you have to remember that sakebomb garage is making installation a breeze. not everybody knows how to put all these parts together and create a functioning system. they are giving you everything so that you just bolt it right up. fabricating the mounting brackets also. im buying all the parts serperate and making my own oil cooler setup myself just like you are cuz we know how to fabricate parts like brackets and things like that so we can save a few dollars for what we know how to do. You cant really knock on their pricing though because they are putting all this work into the oil cooler setup. work isnt free lol. they make better oil cooler systems that i have seem yet and check out online and search oil cooler systems for the fd. they damn sure aint cheap!.

jkstill

iTrader: (11)

IIRC the only way to be 100% sure if the installation is correct is to take it apart to see which side the tstat is on.

I seem to recall it changed at some point, so you really need to examine the internals to be sure.

Or it may have just failed. I had replace that same exact oil Tstat in my FD because it wouldn't open.

13bturborx7

iTrader: (34)

Can sombody tell me what thread size the oil outlets on the front cover and the rear end plate are?.

speedjunkie

iTrader: (3)

I already changed it the other night anyway haha. I'm only reaching about 130* now, whereas before I was hitting higher temps IIRC, but it was also summer then and winter now, so obviously that will make a difference too.

Well **** haha. I don't remember which side was which when I reinstalled it.

If it's installed backwards, will it constantly bypass the oil coolers or will it block oil flow completely, even to the oil filter pedestal? The way I had it installed before, I would have oil in the coolers. Just curious.

speedjunkie

iTrader: (3)

I called BAT, which is Mocal's American distributor, to ask them if the design for the thermostat has ever changed and how to install it. What I got was...it may have changed, but maybe not, depending on circumstances...LOL!!! What I came away with was that the side with the springs (when you look inside) is the side for it to come through the first time (so it should be the side without the bolt heads) and then the side with the piston is the side that will go from the oil coolers and back to the engine, should be the side with the bolt heads. But I would verify first either way, because it may or may not have changed, depending on circumstances of course. LOL

speedjunkie

iTrader: (3)

OK I think I figured out what the guy meant. I think he meant that the bolt heads don't indicate which way it's supposed to be installed, the internals do.

I was helping a friend install his dual oil coolers yesterday and I looked inside first. The springs were on the bolt head side, and the springs are supposed to be on the side with the oil coming from the engine. So that means in his case the bolt heads are supposed to be facing the passenger side.

Now I have to take mine off again to check it LOL.