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I don't drive the FD often. For me it has become just an entertainment car. Strictly an A-A affair.
When I bought it many years ago, I was told by the inspecting mechanic that it had a minor oil leak. These days, that leak keeps the oil pan I keep under the car covered in oil and grime. I have always put the repair job off because I didn't have any need to drive the car that often and because the leak was not that obvious... But for the past couple years or so, I have only been getting about 100 miles or less out of a quart of oil and I do not drive it often because of that. Today I decided to take a better look at the underside. Working from the floor, I jacked up and put the front wheels on 5 inches of cribbing. That is enough for me to slide under.
What I saw was an underside covered with oil and the same grime. What I couldn't see were the oil line fittings that are so easy to get to on my 2nd Gen convertible; they were obscured by the lower engine frame cradle. I don't think taking the plastic undertray off will do much to help the view except maybe expose more of the leaks that may be coming from the pan or the front cover.
I hate the idea of trying to do anything under the car while laying on my back and I wonder if the engine cradle would be difficult to get back on from my position on the floor and also because I am in my 60's now just not that flexible any more.
Even more than that, I hate the idea of taking the car to a local mechanic where I worry that they will destroy the car/engine. In the past I have told mechanics "no test drives," but have found one years abo who ignored that (I have caught one of my cars out on the road when I happened to be driving by in another). So, I guess on this issue, I am caught between a rock and a crazy place.
Lifting the car today, I was hoping I could see clear access that would let me check the oil cooler lines and the pan bolts to see if they were at least snug, but that seems to be a lost cause. I will say that when I look under the car, the oil puddle seems to be pooling behind the starter making me think that maybe the main shaft seal is also in play here. The passenger (turbo) side of the floor seems to be relatively dry.
Being single and living alone I wonder if it would be a good idea to pass up any underside work right now and wait a little longer. In another 4 months I should be getting married and then will at least have someone in the house if there was an accident. Also, our plans are to build a new house in about a year (not long in FD storage time) and then I could tackle the job with a 4 post lift. My other options seem to be to wait until I am up to it and then pull the entire engine and then check the seals, the pan, the front cover and other places while the engine is exposed to the light of day. And of course, my final option is to take it to the local dealership to have them do the job. (I shudder when I think about this option.)
Although I am pretty much just musing here, I would appreciate any thoughts anyone might have?
Where in S. Carolina are you? Maybe there's another FD owner nearby that can spot you.
Diagnosing oil leaks is a pain in the butt without a lift. That said, it's not that hard to get the car up higher using a good floor jack and proper jack stands.
Having just done an engine replacement-- I can tell you the banjo bolts holding in the oil lines to and from the oil cooler(s) can be accessible from above if you take off a bunch of stuff in front of the belts. The C clips attaching the engine side to the cooler side hoses at the midpoint underneath the cross brace to which a lot of the black plastic bits are mounted can both be readily accessed from above as well.
It's about 1-2 hours of taking intercooler and other stuff off with hand tools but I would also prefer it to lying on my back.
Personally I would choose to clean off all the gunk and pinpoint the source before making any further decisions about course of action.
If there is a rear main seal leak that's an enormous job and there's no avoiding lying on your back there so I would just take it to a shop.
It takes me some time to trust a shop with my cars but generally the ones I have gone to have built up enough rapport with me for me not to mind them test driving the car after performing fixes.
It's only natural to check your work after it's done before giving the car back to the customer.
As far as your option for pulling the engine, I was able to get the engine/transmission unit out alone in about 2 full days' worth of work spread across a few weekends-- it was my first time doing it for this car, although I'm considerably younger than 60.
Although I am pretty much just musing here, I would appreciate any thoughts anyone might have?
You’re in your 60’s, you don’t NEED the car for transportation, you have some things on your plate like getting married and moving. If the new house plan includes a lift then IMO it’s a no-brainer...wait.
You wouldn’t want to move half-way thru what could be an involved prolonged project. And at our age a lift makes things WAY easier and even fun if you can do it at your own pace.
As for other thoughts...If you’re intended use for the lift isn’t primarily car storage, consider a two-post asymmetric lift. They’re not good for storing cars but a lot better IMO for working on them. If you stay with a 4-post get one with an open front.
Oh...and if you’re in your 60’s and still sliding your backside under an FD that’s only raised a few inches...you’re my hero. I’d get stuck.
Where in S. Carolina are you? Maybe there's another FD owner nearby that can spot you.
Diagnosing oil leaks is a pain in the butt without a lift. That said, it's not that hard to get the car up higher using a good floor jack and proper jack stands.
Thanks, this is a very good idea and would be a great favor from someone who lives nearby, but I would decline the offer because I work at what a snail would consider a very slow pace. Only doing what I need to at my own pace. I really appreciate the suggestion though.
Just out of curiosity, is there ANY other FD owner around the midlands (Columbia) I haven't seen one in about a decade.
Having just done an engine replacement-- I can tell you the banjo bolts holding in the oil lines to and from the oil cooler(s) can be accessible from above if you take off a bunch of stuff in front of the belts. The C clips attaching the engine side to the cooler side hoses at the midpoint underneath the cross brace to which a lot of the black plastic bits are mounted can both be readily accessed from above as well.
It's about 1-2 hours of taking intercooler and other stuff off with hand tools but I would also prefer it to lying on my back.
Personally I would choose to clean off all the gunk and pinpoint the source before making any further decisions about course of action.
If there is a rear main seal leak that's an enormous job and there's no avoiding lying on your back there so I would just take it to a shop.
It takes me some time to trust a shop with my cars but generally the ones I have gone to have built up enough rapport with me for me not to mind them test driving the car after performing fixes.
It's only natural to check your work after it's done before giving the car back to the customer.
As far as your option for pulling the engine, I was able to get the engine/transmission unit out alone in about 2 full days' worth of work spread across a few weekends-- it was my first time doing it for this car, although I'm considerably younger than 60.
I (for me) routinely take the accessories off and that is a job that is relatively easy. I have been thinking about getting access to the turbos to see of they need rebuilding (replacing), knowing I can get to the oil line from the top gives me another option to consider. I also did a completely solo pull and place of my Vert engine years ago and I was glad to see that it could easily be done.
AM I SEEING YOUR DIAGRAM CORRECTLY? Has the rear oil tube been moved from the bottom of the engine to the pedestal? No wonder I couldn't find it from underneath. I can see that I make too many assumptions about the layout of the engine/compartment based on my knowledge of older cars. That makes a huge difference in checking it.
You’re in your 60’s, you don’t NEED the car for transportation, you have some things on your plate like getting married and moving. If the new house plan includes a lift then IMO it’s a no-brainer...wait.
You wouldn’t want to move half-way thru what could be an involved prolonged project. And at our age a lift makes things WAY easier and even fun if you can do it at your own pace.
As for other thoughts...If you’re intended use for the lift isn’t primarily car storage, consider a two-post asymmetric lift. They’re not good for storing cars but a lot better IMO for working on them. If you stay with a 4-post get one with an open front.
Oh...and if you’re in your 60’s and still sliding your backside under an FD that’s only raised a few inches...you’re my hero. I’d get stuck.
Yes Sargent, I find that once I get into a job, the floor is not "TOO" bad, but the thought of starting it definitely makes me hesitate A LOT before I begin. The more I think about it, the more I think you are right. I should wait. I should do the jobs I can do from above, and hold off on the bottom jobs until I have moved. It's not like I really need the car and an occasional trip down the road can keep it lubricated without worrying about the distance and the loss of oil.
BTW, Regarding the 2 post vs. 4... I like the idea of the 4 because it is (much?) more stable and I don't have to worry about getting the car well balanced on it before lifting. (I know this may be misconceptions on my part.) One of the other things I like about a 4 post is that it doesn't have to remain stationary in the garage and that gives a lot of flexibility of house design. But I also had been thinking '4' because in my current garage, there is NO WAY a 2 post would have had enough height clearance.
As for the front beam being in the way, I would think the length of the lift combined with the shortness of the 7 would give plenty of room. But thinking further, the RX7's will not not be the only cars I will lift, there are probably other cars in my future even though I have had my current cars for 33, 23, and 13 years. <-- Looking at my pattern of buying, I probably should get a '18 if I buy a newer car. The F-Type has been calling me for a while now and I also think hard about the new Tesla Model 2 (if that is what it ends up being called) and so that gives me still more reason to look at a four post. Another reason is that I might end up getting a very long 4 post to support a 77ish GMC motorhome. Have you seen a four post that has an open front beam? I will look around. Thanks for the suggestion!
Common sources of oil leakage on that side of the engine are the 2 O rings in the oil filter pedestal and the O ring at the base of the oil filler neck, but you'd probably notice if either of those leaked large amounts of oil.
In the 26+ years that I've had my FD, it has leaked oil in both of those locations, as well as from the oil pan gasket (fixed 20 years ago) and the secondary turbo compressor shaft seal (not fixed). The filter pedestal leak was corrected 5 years ago. The turbo shaft seal leak has been small but constant for 20+ years and never changed, so I just monitor it. The turbos work fine and there is no oil in the exhaust. But last summer I noticed a lot more drippage on the garage floor. It was coming off the sub-frame in new locations, so I have been trying to pinpoint the source.
I'm older than you and do not enjoy repeatedly crawling under the car as much as I used to, but with proper ramps and jack stands, I don't worry about it being unsafe. I would like to buy a lift but have no room for one. Anyhow, I spent a lot of time cleaning off the old sludge and leaked oil from the bottom of the engine and sub-frame. I removed the engine under cover for better visibility. I didn't want to use spray solvents because of the confined space and potential damage to plastics, so cleaning was a tedious process. Once things were cleaned up, I still couldn't see any obvious new leak points so I added a fluorescent leak-detection dye to the oil and used a UV flashlight to inspect for leaks.
One by one, I was able to rule out several suspects such as the oil metering pump O rings, the oil injection lines, the oil supply and return lines, etc. Because of the dye, I discovered that the oil filler neck O ring leaked, but only a very small amount. That left a possible new oil pan gasket leak and an increase of the old turbo shaft seal leak as the likely sources of last summer's increased drippage. The turbo oil leak runs down onto the engine mount and the side of the oil pan, where it would commingle with oil from a new pan gasket leak in that location, so I haven't been able to rule out either possible source yet, even with the dye. However, after my last oil change and adding the dye, the rate of drippage returned to normal, or better than normal.
I think the old engine oil must have been very diluted by gas from short trips and cold winter starts, and it just made the old leaks worse. I hope there never were any new leaks because it would have to be the oil pan gasket, and fixing that is a real challenge without a lift. It is also possible that the small florescent particles in the dye stopped or slowed the leak(s). Another oil change is due soon, so I'll see if the drippage increases again once most of that dye is removed from the system.
My point is that long-term ownership of these cars requires a lot of curiosity and persistence if you want to keep it on the road, but you already know that. Good luck.
First off I would recommend getting a big can of brake clean and cleaning as much of that crap off as you can. Make sure to wear safety glasses! Then see if you can isolate any of the spots where fresh oil is appearing.
It's most likely not something with the oil cooler lines. The FD's lines rarely if ever leak. If you do have an oil cooler line leak you will know pretty quickly, it will be a steady active leak.
It sounds like you just have the typical oil pan leak. This is SUPER SUPER common and a pain to fix properly. It can be fixed in the car but it's a ROYAL pain to do and hard to do right.
Also possible it's the turbo oil drain gaskets, they can seep over time.
The big thing here is a SEEPING or an ACTIVE leak. Seeping just makes a mess on the underside of the car, doesn't really effect oil levels that much, and at most you have a few small dots of oil on the garage floor. This is going to be from the non-pressurized part of the system - oil pan, oil fill neck, turbo oil drain. An active leak is from the pressurized part of the system and will be a steady drip. Oil level will noticeably go down and you will have a big mess on the garage floor. Oil cooler lines, turbo oil feed, rear stationary gear O-ring, these can be culprits.
You can, in theory, do this with the engine in the car but it's a HUGE pain in the ***. You have to get a fixture to hold the engine from up top, jack the car up on jack stands, and remove the front subframe. Then you have access to the oil pan. But, even like that, the engine will keep dripping oil and it can be VERY hard to get it to stop long enough to properly clean the oil pan sealing surface (which is also a pain to do under the car) - that surface has to be clean, flat and oil-free before you put sealant on. Let the sealant cure overnight then you can refill oil and see how it does.
To get the most of an oil pan re-seal you need a new oil pan. Old ones are typically bent and will never seal right.
The best way to do it is to pull the engine, get the engine on an engine stand, flip it upside-down, and easily and comfortably clean and seal a new oil pan on. You can also deal with any other leaks - rear main seal, turbo drains, etc. But it's a big job to pull the engine, not TOO bad but it can be intimidating.
Also you aren't too far from Rotorsports Racing, may want to call them up and see if they can do the job for you.
All this said, my oil pan has had a seeping leak for 12-15 years. The fact it's a HUGE pain to fix is why it's still seeping. I'm just waiting until I have an excuse to pull the engine.
Good point. The stuff on the underside of the car is pretty chemical resistant and brake clean won't bother it. But you can also use a purple degreaser and water, it's just a lot messier.
That Gunk engine bay stuff is crap, avoid that. Leaves behind a lot of crap, almost makes MORE of a mess.
Good point. The stuff on the underside of the car is pretty chemical resistant and brake clean won't bother it. But you can also use a purple degreaser and water, it's just a lot messier.
That Gunk engine bay stuff is crap, avoid that. Leaves behind a lot of crap, almost makes MORE of a mess.
Dale
Gunk also leaves a terrible smell that will linger for a long time.
Thanks all... This (pan, seals, cover, etc) is definitely a job that won't be done until I absolutely have to - or I am in the new home. I will take a look to see if I can identify any leaks from the top. Thanks for all the input you have confirmed what I thought and felt about doing this.
Yes Sargent, I find that once I get into a job, the floor is not "TOO" bad, but the thought of starting it definitely makes me hesitate A LOT before I begin. The more I think about it, the more I think you are right. I should wait. I should do the jobs I can do from above, and hold off on the bottom jobs until I have moved. It's not like I really need the car and an occasional trip down the road can keep it lubricated without worrying about the distance and the loss of oil.
BTW, Regarding the 2 post vs. 4... I like the idea of the 4 because it is (much?) more stable and I don't have to worry about getting the car well balanced on it before lifting. (I know this may be misconceptions on my part.) One of the other things I like about a 4 post is that it doesn't have to remain stationary in the garage and that gives a lot of flexibility of house design. But I also had been thinking '4' because in my current garage, there is NO WAY a 2 post would have had enough height clearance.
As for the front beam being in the way, I would think the length of the lift combined with the shortness of the 7 would give plenty of room. But thinking further, the RX7's will not not be the only cars I will lift, there are probably other cars in my future even though I have had my current cars for 33, 23, and 13 years. <-- Looking at my pattern of buying, I probably should get a '18 if I buy a newer car. The F-Type has been calling me for a while now and I also think hard about the new Tesla Model 2 (if that is what it ends up being called) and so that gives me still more reason to look at a four post. Another reason is that I might end up getting a very long 4 post to support a 77ish GMC motorhome. Have you seen a four post that has an open front beam? I will look around. Thanks for the suggestion!
As another old car guy (just shy of 60 laps around the sun), that is a pretty hard core DIY'er, getting a 4 post lift was one of the best investments I ever made - should have done it when I moved into my place 16 years ago. I opted for the 4 post for reasons of storage (turns my 2 car garage into 3 car), and because a 2 post rig just wouldn't fit in the space I had available (typical suburbia 2 car 20x24 foot attached garage). I also had a minor ceiling height issue with the 4-post, being that there's a beam that runs across the ceiling about 1/4~1/3 of the way back from the garage door. Which basically means that to get my FD or FC high enough up so I can stand up under it, I have to back the car onto the lift instead of going in nose first. For storage purposes, I can drive either FC or FD in nose first, lift about to the midpoint (before roof hits the beam) and park either the FC or FD underneath. No big deal, works for me. As for suspension/brake work, the 4 post is a bit of a hassle, but there are workarounds. The lift I got came with a jack tray, so you can use that and a bottle or scissor jack to lift the car from the front cross member or differential, and then support it on jack stands on the 4-post lift. Alternatively, I might buy one of those trolley jacks that are made for the lift - slide or roll it along to the lifting point and pump; they are expensive but they also have locks built in so you don't need to mess with jack stands - big time saver.
When I was shopping for a 4 post, I couldn't find any that had a completely open front beam - they all seem to have a front beam somewhere, the question is how far back is it, and will it interfere with things like engine hoists or jacks that you want to roll under from the front? Mine has the beam right up front, and all I had to do to get an engine hoist under there was raise the lift a few inches to clear the legs of the hoist.
I feel your pain. Over the years I too have fought the mysterious oil leaks on my FD. As Dale mentioned my first leak was from the infamous oil pan. After resealing the oil pan a couple of times it finally holds. Then the following year the turbos started to leak. I discovered this by using brake cleaner to find out where this new leak was coming from as it first seemed to be my oil pan again. My plan is the replace my working but aging turbos. But like you, I am not looking forward to trying to remove the old turbos with the still engine in the car (although I am told it can be done) at my age! I am also not wanting to pull the engine out again as I had help last time I did that and it was probably 7 years ago. I am waiting on a lift to be installed in my garage next month and hope it will not only make working on the car easier but will be my solution for winter storage.
As another old car guy (just shy of 60 laps around the sun), that is a pretty hard core DIY'er, getting a 4 post lift was one of the best investments I ever made - should have done it when I moved into my place 16 years ago. I opted for the 4 post for reasons of storage (turns my 2 car garage into 3 car), and because a 2 post rig just wouldn't fit in the space I had available (typical suburbia 2 car 20x24 foot attached garage). I also had a minor ceiling height issue with the 4-post, being that there's a beam that runs across the ceiling about 1/4~1/3 of the way back from the garage door. Which basically means that to get my FD or FC high enough up so I can stand up under it, I have to back the car onto the lift instead of going in nose first. For storage purposes, I can drive either FC or FD in nose first, lift about to the midpoint (before roof hits the beam) and park either the FC or FD underneath. No big deal, works for me. As for suspension/brake work, the 4 post is a bit of a hassle, but there are workarounds. The lift I got came with a jack tray, so you can use that and a bottle or scissor jack to lift the car from the front cross member or differential, and then support it on jack stands on the 4-post lift. Alternatively, I might buy one of those trolley jacks that are made for the lift - slide or roll it along to the lifting point and pump; they are expensive but they also have locks built in so you don't need to mess with jack stands - big time saver.
When I was shopping for a 4 post, I couldn't find any that had a completely open front beam - they all seem to have a front beam somewhere, the question is how far back is it, and will it interfere with things like engine hoists or jacks that you want to roll under from the front? Mine has the beam right up front, and all I had to do to get an engine hoist under there was raise the lift a few inches to clear the legs of the hoist.
I am a bit of a DIYer, and I have a question for you regarding the expensive center jack... How about getting a c-channel iron cut to span the two tracks, welded to two end beams and a bottle jack in the middle bolted to the beam for safety. Should be both safe and relatively cheap.
I am a bit of a DIYer, and I have a question for you regarding the expensive center jack... How about getting a c-channel iron cut to span the two tracks, welded to two end beams and a bottle jack in the middle bolted to the beam for safety. Should be both safe and relatively cheap.
^That would certainly work for lifting, as long as the structural strength is there and all the measurements work out for you. I had a hell of a time finding suitable bottle jacks to use with the jacking tray that came with my lift - the ones that would fit within the limited vertical space between my jacking tray surface and the FD's front cross member wouldn't raise the car high enough to support it with jack stands. Similar issue with the FC; if I had a jacking tray that sat lower, and allowed for more clearance between the car's cross member and tray, I'd just buy one of those big '***** bottle jacks and be done with it. Instead, I ended up with 2 bottle jacks - a small one that I put just off-center on the cross member to start raising the car a little bit, then the big '***** jack will fit in the center, and I use that to raise it high enough so I can drop it down onto the jack stands. The jack stands set securely on the lift's ramps, and support the car at the usual pinch weld lifting points. I also use the hard rubber pinch weld adapters that keep my pinch welds from getting mangled. For the FD & FC's rear end, there's more clearance to the diff, so that's a 1 jack operation - the big bottle jack fits no problem.
I thought about doing something like you propose to solve the problem, but I can't weld (at least not well enough yet to trust for my safety), so easy solution is to buy the trolley jack with the integrated jack stand locks. The trolley jack will end up costing me less than getting a qualified fabrication/welding shop to build something to my specs.
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When I was shopping for a 4 post, I couldn't find any that had a completely open front beam - they all seem to have a front beam somewhere, the question is how far back is it, and will it interfere with things like engine hoists or jacks that you want to roll under from the front? ….
If I’d had more space I’d have looked hard at this. Open front makes ALOT of things easier not to mention easier on your forehead. Shows the optional jacks.
I opted for a Rotary two-post asymmetric. It takes less space which was a biggie at my shop. And for stuff like brakes and suspension it’s way easier imo. But it’s semi-permanent with a minimum concrete thickness, neither of which was an issue for me. Probably not good for storage since suspension would be left in full droop.
Regardless of choice I think a minimum height requirement is 12 Ft or so.
^That would certainly work for lifting, as long as the structural strength is there and all the measurements work out for you. I had a hell of a time finding suitable bottle jacks to use with the jacking tray that came with my lift - the ones that would fit within the limited vertical space between my jacking tray surface and the FD's front cross member wouldn't raise the car high enough to support it with jack stands. Similar issue with the FC; if I had a jacking tray that sat lower, and allowed for more clearance between the car's cross member and tray, I'd just buy one of those big '***** bottle jacks and be done with it. Instead, I ended up with 2 bottle jacks - a small one that I put just off-center on the cross member to start raising the car a little bit, then the big '***** jack will fit in the center, and I use that to raise it high enough so I can drop it down onto the jack stands. The jack stands set securely on the lift's ramps, and support the car at the usual pinch weld lifting points. I also use the hard rubber pinch weld adapters that keep my pinch welds from getting mangled. For the FD & FC's rear end, there's more clearance to the diff, so that's a 1 jack operation - the big bottle jack fits no problem.
I thought about doing something like you propose to solve the problem, but I can't weld (at least not well enough yet to trust for my safety), so easy solution is to buy the trolley jack with the integrated jack stand locks. The trolley jack will end up costing me less than getting a qualified fabrication/welding shop to build something to my specs.
Thanks for the lesson. I think I will be able to learn from your experience. Appreciate it. You also remind me I need to pick up a few more "hockey pucks" I can't believe how weak those pinches are in the FD.
06-05-21, 01:57 PM
