Wow, that video was amazing! It very clearly shows both cars strengths and weaknesses. If anything it shows that a well modded FD doesn't outright lose to a newer GT3, it is capable of putting up much more that a simple challenge. Did anyone else notice all of the "high caliber" cars they both were passing? Just goes to show that the FD is truly one of the great ones in automotive history.

 

What I don't understand is when a jumped up Beetle became a benchmark??? lol

The car has "evolved" for over 40yrs. And it still doesn't do a few things right. Engine is all the way out the back. All the special electronics isn't going to stop the laws of physics.

The FD can more than keep up with "modern" day sports cars.

It all comes down to what people want to do with their FD.

Content with leaving it as a "street" vehicle? Or do you want to add a bit of spice?

The platform is very forgiving and takes most upgrades without breaking your bank (to a degree of course)

I've got about 350-400rwhp on my FD. You seriously don't need much more than this to get yourself into trouble either on the road, or on the track.

To hell with jumped up Beetles.

 

Autombile Magazine just did a 'Ring comparison of the Ferrari 599GTO vs. Porsche 911 GT2 RS: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews..._rs/index.html

Just like you said, the Porsche has to brake harder, and uses it's explosive torque/power to blast out of the corner.
In short: slow-in, fast-out.

Our cars are great momentum cars (unless it has a LSx conversion!). I was at the track this weekend instructing, and got to run with a Lambo Gallardo LP 570-4 Superleggera, and he could not keep up with my "paltry" 320RWP (stock turbos) in the corners.

I eventually pointed him by on the long-straight, only to catch him in the turns again.

As a road-course dual-purpose car, I will only approach 500-RWHP IF the power can be modulated, as a spikey power delivery would not be fun in the corners.

I'm eyeing either a BNR or 20B with the stock Cosmo turbo, properly tuned by Steve Kan.

FWIW- Steve tuned mine for a smoth transition, and everyone who's driven it can't believe how smooth the delivery is especially in the corners!

 

that's easy, MOVE.

even in crappy CA, we've got sears point, laguna seca, and thunder hill all within 3 hours. 6 adds buttonwillow, reno and willow springs.

 

Good ole Bob Fish. He hasn't been around in a while.

 

ahh didn't make the connection but I do now. IIRC he is lightly modded with stock twins no?

 

Yes...

That was one of the intended key points of this thread, good to hear it from a track regular

400 rwhp from BNR twins is still formidable in these cars

 

Yes but then I'd have to move to CA and be taxed and regulated to death - I'd rather move to Europe

 

no comment eh?

 

Bob was (or still is) running basically around 300rwhp, at least at the time of that video. Again, I think it's incorrect to use videos like that as a judge. The skill level between the two drivers looks substantial. It's pretty clear the GT3 could pull away when it wanted, but I'll bet the owner was not looking to stuff his car for the sake of fun. Heck, most of those people run out there on the Ring without helmets.

As I've said before, boasting about passing people on a track day is basically giving yourself a pat on the back. No one cares because everyone is out on the track for different reasons, different abilities, and different experience levels.. In most cases, at your standard track event, the people with the expensive cars are driving the slowest as they have more to loose. It would be different to have the same person drive the various cars and/or combinations and see the lap time differences.

Also, going fast is only about how much money and effort you are willing to put out. Can you take a 15 year old car and make it fast? Yes! Will it be cheaper to do that than to take 4 year old car and do that? Yes! Again, I think people were missing Mark's point about the GT3. His point was that you get that level of performance "as is", not really so much than you cannot make another car to the same level (or above).

The FD is a tinkerers car. If you don't like to tinker, the love of the car doesn't always last. I'm personally at the point where I don't care to tinker. I would prefer to "arrive and drive". My M3 is close to that now, but the brakes aren't there so I deal with pad swapping and such for track days with it. I've been contemplating a GT3 for a while and it's still on my mind. Would I care if some guy put in the wrench time to make his 15 or 30 year old car go faster than my GT3? Nope! I'd pat him on the back and say "good job!".

 

+1

 

Thank you, mr. links. To expand on this, beyond 400 rwhp the FD is getting to a point where it is being pushed outside its original engineering envelope, and parts start to fail regularly, and/or must be upgraded from the jump. Can a GT3 blow-up? Sure. Does it happen often? No. You can't say that about an FD.

Agree...

 

i was originally referring to the questions that i asked Mark on the previous page. but thanks for answering my other question


its clearer that gt3 was trying his hardest otherwise he would have pulled over a lot earlier.

 

Still not sure what you really mean by this. Yes, when you modify a car you expose weakness in other components—it's a ballance, and you shouldn't expect to bolt in 400 rwhp and not make other balancing upgrades, but I'm not sure about "outside it's original engineering envelope". What does that mean specifically?

These cars have been successful at many levels of racing, including the original Bridgestone Supercar challenge, Speed GT, etc., and they didn't really require any more "extension" of the engineering envelope" than any other car. Probably less, because it wasn't some sedan that needs all the suspension pick-up points moved, etc. You seem to keep suggesting that the car will literally crumble under the power or something, and it's really not the case. About the only thing that's going to fail as a result will be trannys and diffs, and that happens regularly w/ 350 rwhp cars if you track them.

 

I mean it becomes difficult to name stock parts on the car that can manage > 400 rwhp. Let's see, transmission, axles, powerplant frame, ignition coils, brakes, intercooler, radiator, the entire fuel system, ECU, turbos....shall I go on?

 

The driver may have been, but not the car. Bob was running about 8:30 for lap times where as the GT3's has been clocked around 7:40. Bob's times are nothing to sneeze at for where he was at, but again, random non-professional track events are NOT the best judge of what a car can or cannot do.

 

No question Howard has done alot to raise awareness about the value of water and meth in terms of keeping these engines alive at higher boost, but as mahjik so accurately stated, this is a tinkerer's car - you have to be willing to forever be tinkering with it (have you seen Howard's engine bay??), especially at these high power levels. A GT3 owner just gets in and drive the ***** out of it and it's not going to break.

 

I hate to say it but, most of that stuff is foreseeable bolt-on upgrades necessary to match the speed/power... that's different from a "flaw" in the car.

Porsche, for instance, upgrades most of that stuff (actually way more) when it turns a regular 997 into a GT3... that's what a GT3 is. It's a factory (well) tweaked car. It would actually be tougher, more complicated, and more expensive for you, as a private consumer to modify and re-engineer a regular 997 to beat a GT3 than it would for you to modify an RX7 to beat it.

Porsche reinforce the chassis, add a roll car, upgrade the tranny, upgrade all the cooling, upgrade the aero, new motor, modified suspension, bigger brakes, r-compounds, etc. They actually do quite a bit to the base car to get it there.... and that's really all we're doing here, with a lot less money and a lot less development time.

If the car is so fragile, why is it so popular for LSX swaps? Those things have way more component-damaging torque then even high hp rotaries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-6sa...eature=related

 

Good post Pete

Also like another member said that 130k GT3 money must buy something

Say a few words that all ring true and attach a vid with a flying lizard GT3 in it (probably a hopped up cup car) and some hack driving a v8 FD that's keeping his nose in the game. I say hack lightly because I was impressed with the smooth driving and line.

This thread has been great for showcasing how great the FD is. Loving this thread. Thanks no rice for starting this one

 

Much of this just simply isn't true. You most certainly do not have to upgrade trans, halfshafts, PPF, ignition coils or brakes to cope with a 400 BHP motor. Stock rads can be used in upgraded builds and have the advantage that the plastic end tanks are actually a lot more resistant to heat soak than nice shiny alloy ones but yeah, you're certainly geting to the level that an upgrade is desirable. Turbos can just about stretch to 400 bhp but admittedly won't last long, and yes, you do have to upgrade the ECU and fuel system. The stock intercooler could barely cope with the factory ~250bhp, so fair enough, you can have that one lol. So that's five nos, two maybes and three yesses out of ten, not the most triumphant hit rate...

As gmonsen already said, much of what has to be replaced is what is needed to be replaced to attain the power levels being discussed anyway. And you can comfortably do this for less than a stock 997 let alone a GT3, so this again seems largely non-pursuant to the point

 

The video is "Hot lap kyle" who had an absolutely epic build thread on the V8 forum about this car, painted in olive drab army livery. The guy I believe owns a shop, and has built successful EVO's... that's not say he's a hack, but compared to Porsche or Flying Lizard, that's a GARAGE build, and there's nothing remarkable really about it... gutted, caged, Pettit flares, big michelins, big wing, and oh yeah, 500+hp LS3... The chassis "handled" the power just fine, and ironically he had to sell it after it blew the motor.

High 1:50's at WGI... I'm pretty sure he found a 500 hp FD "more enjoyable to drive" :-)

 

This is getting silly.

Any (read carefully) car you start to heavily modify requires maintenance. Any time you modify past the OE designs you are going to have issues pop up with any car be it Yugo or Ferrari.

You should just head on over to the corvette forums, porsche forum or whatever your heart desires (which does not seem to be an FD) and read for a while and see what they go through. The difference is that these people pay shops to do the tinkering for them. If you head over to the Honda forums these people do the tinkering themselves. Do you see where I am going????

You can have a FD that is a track warrior and street driver and never work on it. (I know someone who does) Just bring your check book. That's all that is required.

I chose the FD because believe it or not I would choose it over anything else for my first choice. Second choice would be an ACR Viper. The Italians have a beautiful exhaust notes and I love it, but they are so high maintenance, and I am more of a t-shirt and jeans type of guy.

No more rice you are really starting to make yourself sound uneducated in the modified car area, no offense.

 

^In all fairness to the original intent of this thread, the car isnt a 13b so power delivery is obviously much different. I know the thread has taken a turn about half-way through from the original "whats more enjoyable" to "whats faster", and now its what the car is capable of handling... but I think we can all agree a 500+whp 13b powered FD isnt going to have the linear powerband of a larger displacement car, whether that be V8, 20B, whatever.

 

I'll throw my .02 worth in here as I still like to "visit" here, I'm a former owner of a '94 R2 up until last March when I shipped it back east to Fritz, (hopefully he is still taking care of it and hasn't sold it or parted it out right?) and got a GT3. I had gotten to a point where I wanted to try something "different" and, truthfully, realized I didn't have the space, time, patience and capabilities to take the car to the next level..... BTW, 3 rotor NA would have been my choice.

I never tracked the RX7 (one of the biggest regrets I've made) but I did autocross it quite a bit, I've done a few driver events with the GT3 and some autocrosses. If I was going to compare them I would say the Mazda is, not surprisingly, a far more balanced car and that allows you to be very aggressive with it. I was so used to driving the Mazda, I'd just get in and have at it, the Porsche forces you concentrate on the braking and throttle management. If you try to be too aggressive and carry to much speed through a corner the result can be a nice little spin (done that already....).

The GT3 has a mechanical solidness that the RX7 lacks and it just feels like a car that can run hard for hours without any issues. One note about the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires that come on the GT3, they are a special Porsche fitment (N0 or N1 spec) and supposedly the compound is actually closer to their Pilot Sport 2 as opposed to the balance of the MPSC line. Not a bad compromise track tire but I wouldn't rate them up with the true DOT R tires from Hoosier or Kumho for example.

I'd say that given equal power the RX7 would be faster then a GT3 (assuming similar level types of tires, with the RX7 having upgraded suspension, brakes, etc.). They are both great cars that have few peers, I personally can't think of any other performance cars that I would be interested in owning, just enjoy the RX7 and be comfortable in knowing that it is a performance bargain! Take your pick....

Keith

 

Love the color on the GT3. I always forget how small these cars are until I seem them next to something else.

Well said.