Does 500 rwhp make an FD more enjoyable to drive? (13b only)
10-27-10, 03:29 PM
#77
"Compound" setups are rpm limited, they wont work well at 8500 or 9k rpm.
Personally ditch the twins and run a small single if you want quick response. The twins are more a headache than they are worth. I've had to fix ,diagnose, repair, replace more junk from those setups than I care to remember. I never see a single guy with a well sorted single say, "Gee I think I want to put the twins back on the car."
~S~
10-27-10, 03:40 PM
#78
"Compound" setups are rpm limited, they wont work well at 8500 or 9k rpm.
Personally ditch the twins and run a small single if you want quick response. The twins are more a headache than they are worth. I've had to fix ,diagnose, repair, replace more junk from those setups than I care to remember. I never see a single guy with a well sorted single say, "Gee I think I want to put the twins back on the car."
~S~
Personally ditch the twins and run a small single if you want quick response. The twins are more a headache than they are worth. I've had to fix ,diagnose, repair, replace more junk from those setups than I care to remember. I never see a single guy with a well sorted single say, "Gee I think I want to put the twins back on the car."
~S~
10-27-10, 03:44 PM
#79
Where has my $ gone?
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bay Area, Cal/Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,654
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
2 Posts
A set of double "Ds" that make you feel really great taking to a party but are really only fun for short periods and only after you spend alot of money to get her in the mood vs. a 'C' cup that's lively, quick-witted, cheap(er) to entertain and fun all the time....not just behind closed doors. If you can afford only one, which is the keeper.......??? 
10-27-10, 03:45 PM
#80
^^ i'll take C's on a petite spinner any day over DD's which usually have "more" in a few other places too...
my next door neighbor bought a 2010 white EVO X, and I have to say, that care looks pretty mean! not as purty or sleek as the 7, and he and his gf drool over mine commenting on how 'track prepped' it is just stock (front cowl openings and ducting, and lower than almost anything else out there).
though I agree, previous Evos are ugly, and sti's .. well, no need to comment there.
With the FD, style, looks, balance and response is just as, if not "more" important to me than high hp. If I want that, I'll go buy a new Camero or Challenger and beef it up.
however, of all the high hp FDs out there, I think GoodFella's FD sets the bar for keeping everything well sorted and still achieving the mark. sure it's expensive, and allot of effort and not for everyone, but if thats what you want, it "can" be done and it "can" turn out well.
other side of the same coin, Gmonsen went a completely different route and achieved something great for the FD as well... again, its all in the details... and I don't think it's so much consideration how much money you spend, but the thought and care that goes into the build... similar to what Mazda did by producing the FD in the first place (albeit the cooling system).
my next door neighbor bought a 2010 white EVO X, and I have to say, that care looks pretty mean! not as purty or sleek as the 7, and he and his gf drool over mine commenting on how 'track prepped' it is just stock (front cowl openings and ducting, and lower than almost anything else out there).
though I agree, previous Evos are ugly, and sti's .. well, no need to comment there.
With the FD, style, looks, balance and response is just as, if not "more" important to me than high hp. If I want that, I'll go buy a new Camero or Challenger and beef it up.
however, of all the high hp FDs out there, I think GoodFella's FD sets the bar for keeping everything well sorted and still achieving the mark. sure it's expensive, and allot of effort and not for everyone, but if thats what you want, it "can" be done and it "can" turn out well.
other side of the same coin, Gmonsen went a completely different route and achieved something great for the FD as well... again, its all in the details... and I don't think it's so much consideration how much money you spend, but the thought and care that goes into the build... similar to what Mazda did by producing the FD in the first place (albeit the cooling system).
10-27-10, 04:50 PM
#81
DRIVE THE ROTARY SPORTS
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: CA (Bay Area)
Posts: 4,150
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the mixed feelings come from the pure fact that a 500WHP FD will not be a cornering champ, where a 350WHP FD with the stock twins is much more easy to manage. each car should be built with a purpose, the guys who dislike 500WHP light sport cars usually are the type who do not run in a straight line and like the pure feel of G's back in your seat versus being pulled into the door or center console without having to manage their foot ever so slightly. each of which is understandable, you don't need 500WHP to have a "quick" car depending on your point of view.
10-27-10, 04:53 PM
#82
I think the fun is partly in hp, partly in response which are two seperate things and looks like they are mixed up in some of the posts here.
Stock twins vs. BNR twins vs. Big Single has been discussed many times in the past but since we're talking RX7 this thread also comes down to same discussion.
I paid for a GT3574R to have the best compromise but now the order is on hold due to some complications on my end and now I'm having second thoughts thinking if I should go with BNR twins. Because what's fun is response combined with high hp Having said that there is no black and white answer to this topic cause if you have to pick one or the other it really depends on personal preference and the style of driving you do, some like mind blowing acceleration while others prefer telephatic response.
Anyone who has seen this video will know what I mean about high HP with fast response (action starts at 1.29):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-HTmonxbmc
Stock twins vs. BNR twins vs. Big Single has been discussed many times in the past but since we're talking RX7 this thread also comes down to same discussion.
I paid for a GT3574R to have the best compromise but now the order is on hold due to some complications on my end and now I'm having second thoughts thinking if I should go with BNR twins. Because what's fun is response combined with high hp
Having said that there is no black and white answer to this topic cause if you have to pick one or the other it really depends on personal preference and the style of driving you do, some like mind blowing acceleration while others prefer telephatic response. Anyone who has seen this video will know what I mean about high HP with fast response (action starts at 1.29):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-HTmonxbmc
And that car only has 630hp and it DEMOLISHES on the track. That is seriously the perfect track car. And it idles stock
Theres alot of insecurity in this thread.
Our cars are old. NOTHING will save that. So all this talk about newer cars are boring and ugly is opinion.
10-27-10, 05:09 PM
#83
^ money will save our cars being old.
and 630hp for a R34 (which is an older car), is relatively moderate over stock levels. not to mention the mods/upgrades (and tune) were planned well and taken seriously which was the point of that video.
not all new cars are boring or ugly, the new GTR is pretty awesome, so is the Z06, so is the Audi A5/S5.
but look at the money they cost. take that (including the interest paid) and put it into any FD and you will have something similar to what Gmonsen or GoodFellas have and either of those are as good if not better than a new car, not to mention the satisfaction of building something of that quality instead of just walking into a dealership and signing a form and driving something that any other average ahole can buy.
and 630hp for a R34 (which is an older car), is relatively moderate over stock levels. not to mention the mods/upgrades (and tune) were planned well and taken seriously which was the point of that video.
not all new cars are boring or ugly, the new GTR is pretty awesome, so is the Z06, so is the Audi A5/S5.
but look at the money they cost. take that (including the interest paid) and put it into any FD and you will have something similar to what Gmonsen or GoodFellas have and either of those are as good if not better than a new car, not to mention the satisfaction of building something of that quality instead of just walking into a dealership and signing a form and driving something that any other average ahole can buy.
10-27-10, 05:21 PM
#85
Ok this thread is getting slightly off track. So how about we do this. Lets make a list of what you'd need or need to do to make a 500HP FD reliable, handle well, and still powerful. Like I said in an earlier post it's been done before in japan many times.
10-27-10, 05:28 PM
#86
^ money will save our cars being old.
and 630hp for a R34 (which is an older car), is relatively moderate over stock levels. not to mention the mods/upgrades (and tune) were planned well and taken seriously which was the point of that video.
not all new cars are boring or ugly, the new GTR is pretty awesome, so is the Z06, so is the Audi A5/S5.
but look at the money they cost. take that (including the interest paid) and put it into any FD and you will have something similar to what Gmonsen or GoodFellas have and either of those are as good if not better than a new car, not to mention the satisfaction of building something of that quality instead of just walking into a dealership and signing a form and driving something that any other average ahole can buy.
and 630hp for a R34 (which is an older car), is relatively moderate over stock levels. not to mention the mods/upgrades (and tune) were planned well and taken seriously which was the point of that video.
not all new cars are boring or ugly, the new GTR is pretty awesome, so is the Z06, so is the Audi A5/S5.
but look at the money they cost. take that (including the interest paid) and put it into any FD and you will have something similar to what Gmonsen or GoodFellas have and either of those are as good if not better than a new car, not to mention the satisfaction of building something of that quality instead of just walking into a dealership and signing a form and driving something that any other average ahole can buy.
There are tons of impressions and tests for the FD and even they said the car is old and there are always problems with it.
The point of that video was which is the best inline6, not really engine response, that was MINES point to prove.
You're right, money will save our FD's, if they wanna spend tens of thousands and tens of thousands to put everything brand new. And even then, you're stuck with what? A chassis that has 100k miles? I cant even imagine the amount of stress that chassis has, even though every PART is brand new, the car is still old.
Thats why you have to take in account for brand new cars that are fast. Just because it doesnt have "style", that is your opinion. Thats why people modify brand new cars. They want the comfort and luxury of a brand new car with the reliability of making a brand new car fast. You cant just discredit those cars because our FD's are cheap to modify and could be made faster with little money. It is also MORE expensive to maintain that way and/or to make it fast.
Reading this thread just shows the insecurity. I hope i dont end up like that as my years of being an FD owner continue. I doubt it though just going by my post now
10-27-10, 05:39 PM
#87
Actually it seems like it's only off-track when you discuss money and specific mods. That wasn't in the OP's question. It was whether those with 500+ hp enjoy the cars more or less than previously, what their motivation was for going to that level and looking for feedback in terms of driving satisfaction....not for a hardware and cost discussion.
10-27-10, 06:53 PM
#89
oldie but a goodie, would seem the 7 pulls away with a lot less than 500whp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ9b5UmO7OE
Last edited by Zero R; 10-27-10 at 06:56 PM.
10-27-10, 06:54 PM
#90
depends on the car... like others are saying, performance in terms of power to weight ratio, well, a 500hp FD is pretty damn hard to beat, even for a GT3 or Z06. hence the ego-centric need to "keep them in check" as some have mentioned.
The best benefit I see to a new car, is nice interior... but Gmonsen debunks that myth too.
The famous A1 Abrams tanks, when they are sent back for "rebuilding" get their hulls stripped down to the frame, bead/sand blasted to hell, painted and then rebuilt back up with all new electronics, engine, armor and gun and put back into service. This actually keeps costs down. And these rebuilt A1 Abrams perform just as well as new ones off the assembly line.
As long as there isn't any damage to the frame, I don't think age should be a factor... but maybe I'm missing something?
The best benefit I see to a new car, is nice interior... but Gmonsen debunks that myth too.
You're right, money will save our FD's, if they wanna spend tens of thousands and tens of thousands to put everything brand new. And even then, you're stuck with what? A chassis that has 100k miles? I cant even imagine the amount of stress that chassis has, even though every PART is brand new, the car is still old.
and put back into service. This actually keeps costs down. And these rebuilt A1 Abrams perform just as well as new ones off the assembly line.As long as there isn't any damage to the frame, I don't think age should be a factor... but maybe I'm missing something?
10-27-10, 07:22 PM
#91
The FD sure holds it own agains the top dogs though. I'm sure you've seen this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXuYftXg2-c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXuYftXg2-c
10-27-10, 07:41 PM
#92
mazda has done it before too with n/a 4 rotor engines. those japanese shows are a bit off base anyways, because those shops throw retarded amounts of money at those cars. the R34 is a boat by comparison which makes it more respectable that it can actually do that, however it does have the AWD advantage. apples to oranges, i would still prefer the lighter RWD.
10-27-10, 07:46 PM
#93
oldie but a goodie, would seem the 7 pulls away with a lot less than 500whp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ9b5UmO7OE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ9b5UmO7OE
10-27-10, 07:59 PM
#94
mazda has done it before too with n/a 4 rotor engines. those japanese shows are a bit off base anyways, because those shops throw retarded amounts of money at those cars. the R34 is a boat by comparison which makes it more respectable that it can actually do that, however it does have the AWD advantage. apples to oranges, i would still prefer the lighter RWD.
10-27-10, 08:04 PM
#95
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,780
Received 2,565 Likes
on
1,824 Posts
ive personally driven FD's from stock to about 450rwhp and in between, and personally i like a stockish car, as its more inline with MY driving skills. also you can drive the stock car fairly hard without tripling the speed limit, which is nice.
does this make a 500hp FD uncool or wrong? nope, i'm just happier with a stockish car.
does this make a 500hp FD uncool or wrong? nope, i'm just happier with a stockish car.
10-27-10, 08:17 PM
#96
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,780
Received 2,565 Likes
on
1,824 Posts
the sheetmetal is just spot welded together, an extreme example is the car in the link in my sig, with the really sticky tires, the honda is actually breaking spot welds on the body, the strut tops actually show wear where they are moving around in the strut tower, stuff like that it did not do when it was new
the FD is WAY WAY WAY more robust than the honda, but still
10-27-10, 09:02 PM
#97
Your right. I haven't seen a stock dyno chart in forever. That's what I get for guessing. LOL!
Anyways I just found a nice comparison chart between a stock fd and a single upgrade on the same chart. Here you can clearly see that the torque below 4,500 rpms. The twins (when they work) are something truly special.
The thing I really liked about the twins was not having to down shift from 5th gear on the highway to pass someone. Just floor it and your gone. Not gonna happen with a larger single as you are not making any torque down their.
10-27-10, 09:02 PM
#98
depends on the car... like others are saying, performance in terms of power to weight ratio, well, a 500hp FD is pretty damn hard to beat, even for a GT3 or Z06. hence the ego-centric need to "keep them in check" as some have mentioned.
The best benefit I see to a new car, is nice interior... but Gmonsen debunks that myth too.
The best benefit I see to a new car, is nice interior... but Gmonsen debunks that myth too.
If you think the best benefit to a new car is just the interior then i think you have a wrong view on cars in general.
Performance in terms of power to weight. Ok ill go buy a 90s miata and put an LS1 in there. Not only will it have AMAZING power to weight, but ill spend even less money than putting an LS1 in an FD.
Like i said before, there are more to modifying a car than just looking at price. Even if said cars are more expensive, there are reasons to it.
Its never ending to see on this forum people justifying an FD's credibility just by saying it looks better or its easy to make power. While this is true, there are reasons why every single FD owner dont have a 500rwhp FD. And i dont need to mention them.
The famous A1 Abrams tanks, when they are sent back for "rebuilding" get their hulls stripped down to the frame, bead/sand blasted to hell, painted and then rebuilt back up with all new electronics, engine, armor and gun and put back into service. This actually keeps costs down. And these rebuilt A1 Abrams perform just as well as new ones off the assembly line.
As long as there isn't any damage to the frame, I don't think age should be a factor... but maybe I'm missing something?
and put back into service. This actually keeps costs down. And these rebuilt A1 Abrams perform just as well as new ones off the assembly line.As long as there isn't any damage to the frame, I don't think age should be a factor... but maybe I'm missing something?
And yes age as ALOT to do with chassis.
10-27-10, 09:20 PM
#99
Looking at the red line... the stock FD's torque band is ok, but not impressive by today's standards for turbo cars. Below is a manufacturer [engine] dynosheet for a 2010 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT, which is just a turbo 4 cylinder family sedan. It uses a short runner divided manifold with single turbo to improve response. The old Subaru sequential twin turbo boxers were phased out a decade ago.
The solid line is for the turbo 2.5 boxer engines in the US and the dotted line is for the 2.0 engines used in Japan. Those are port injected, but modern direct injected turbo engines tend to have even better low end torque. The Taurus SHO Ecoboost uses twin turbos and wall-guided direct injection to hit peak torque below 2000rpm:
the N54 twin turbo inline six engine from recent BMW models uses spray-guided direct injection and also has instant torque:
It's still fun to drive an FD with properly working sequential twins, but the engine in that configuration is nothing special. You can see from the above charts that the stock twins have mediocre low end torque by today's standards. Only the Evo X has worse low end torque, but I don't want to further clutter up the thread with that dynosheet. This gives going single more of an appeal. The REW will never match newer turbo engines in terms of useable torque, so I don't even bother.