eViLRotor

iTrader: (2)

We do a lot of racing a Mosport.
I've seen GT3 Cup cars do 1:25 is qualifying, big turbo GT1 STI's 1:26-1:27 and a GT2 GT35R-Jetta 1:29.

For a 'street car', the wird is quite fast around that track @ 1:32.

Our GT2 FD can do 1:30's with similar power levels than him, but we have more aero/suspension. Also older drivers who drink a lot of beer, so we should be faster.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Yes he is, we're on the same team

No doubt the beer allows for poor judgement (late braking) which is a big advantage.

And a well driven GT3 997 factory RS or otherwise that's track prepped will run the same lap times not get stomped.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

This reminds me of the old cold air intake discussions.

I think the way that netted out was that cold air is good, but more air is better—i.e.: cold air is desirable, but not at the expense of restriction (which is a typical penalty unless you cut a big hole).

Same here. Drivability, smooth power delivery, reliability, etc. are great all things being equal, but more power... particularly 150 hp more, is better, at least for lap times.

Maybe the thread should have been "700 hp FD...", so that the envelope is pushed further and shortcomings/compromises more apparent.

remydrm

500hp takes a lot of skill to control at speed. And there is definitely a difference between driving fast and racing. I know I catch myself braking to scrub speed or letting off a little while still in the straights when I'm on the back roads because it's only "fast driving".

But on the track, I know I can go deep into the turn before braking and late apex without worry.... I also know that I can only do this relatively well in my 200hp EP FB.

My FD doesn't make 500hp just yet, but I have a good amount of back road time in my other car which does. Getting from turn to turn that much faster means a whole lot of "holy ****" moments!

my2cents

kensin

iTrader: (22)

i did 1.09 at mosport.

Nik da Greek

This thread is fascinating....or it was, up until a page ago , been some good late night reading for me

I don't have a 500bhp FD, mine's only just over 400 (though UK dyno figures are usually quite a lot more stingy than US ones, so call it low to mid 400s) and at no time have I felt that I'd want to go back to twins or that there is an excess of power to cope with. I think it's important to consider the whole car as a hollistic thing, not just as a power figure. This has already been alluded to in the thread already, but my take on it is that massive power combined with 18-year old soggy stock bushes, bone-jarring suspension that leaves you pissing blood, a leg-breaking clutch, and lightswitch powerband makes for a very unpleasant driving experience. However, an intelligently modified car with upgraded parts that compliment the power and work in harmony rather than simply try to keep up with it can be altogether much nicer.

Good tyres and suspension make such a massive difference, my car was transformed from an evil monster to pussycat with the addition of some Ohlins suspension. Yeah, it was expensive, but when you're crashing along over bumps wishing your suspension wasn't so hard, it's not just making you uncomfortable, it isn't controlling the movement of the mass of the vehicle either, nor is it allowing the tyres to gain proper traction. Decent suspension is worth every penny and more imho and the Japs simply do not understand suspension. They think massive spring rates and shim stacks like industrial washers must be good because they're rock solid...errrr, nope; control is not the same as hard!

All the talk of whether new cars are comparable is slightly odd....anyone who's been on a similar modifying journey with an FD to mine would have been able to afford just about any Evo, Skyline, Supra et al they want out of the money it's cost to make their FD get where it is....in fact, I could have had many flavours of Porsche or Ferrari too if I were that way inclined, maybe even a cheap Lambo I'm saying that not to boast, but because it's damn well true....blow a couple of engines, buy the wrong turbo setup a couple of times then replace it *ahem* forget you have another turbo still to come on in the wet and smash the car to bits :blush and suddenly you find you've dropped £30 000 in a few short years!

Surely the appeal is the uniqueness of the rotary in general and the FD in particular is a main chunk of the appeal. What beats blowing away a much more powerful and expensive car with your little 1300cc toy? What beats the mad noise and and fidgeting of a big power FD on full honk? Nothing much in my experience....I've been in, for example, an £80 000 Skyline GTR33 that made ~750 bhp, and it was a curiously unrewarding experience. Don't get me wrong, it was apocalyptically fast, it re-arranged time and space like the damn Millenium Falcon, but you never felt like you were involved in the driving experience. An FD is totally the opposite, it is always alive and involving, driving one is a visceral experience, not something that you just sit there like a sack of spuds and watch happen as if someone else was doing it.

More power equals more fun on the street? Yep, the more the better


EDIT: wow, didn't realise I was rambling on so long, sorry to anyone who just waded through all that drivel lol

R1_stormrider

you hit the bullseye right there. + ******* 1

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Can I have some of that beer ^_^

thewird

no_more_rice

Suspension - my next step is to bolt on a set of the new Pettit coil-overs with a Superpro kit. Handling is obviously a strong point for the FD (properly modded) and a key component of the "enjoyment" factor, since I can't use 500 rwhp on the street (except for a freeway run that would get me another reckless driving).

There are many upgrades that need to be done to this car before it can reliably manage 500 rwhp on track, that's the primary weakness relative to a GT3 imo. A big brake kit is a must, so is an upgraded trans, chassis reinforcements, etc. With more power comes exponentially more money invested (all of which will disappears into a black hole, never to be seen again).

no_more_rice

With all due respect, Gordon, I'm not buyin it - and never would buy it without a video and resume of both drivers.

Yes....

MOBEONER

iTrader: (18)

^^^ +1.. that's around my HP and i don't think i can beat a Gallardo at all.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Open up your magazine and let me know how the Gallardo compares to a GT3 I've already proven with video how I compare to it with an FD making less than 350 rwhp.

I'm beating the GT3 by 2 seconds with a passenger, on bad tires with low boost.

Still after all this and you DON'T GET IT. A well setup up car with more power to weight will run a faster lap with equal drivers. It's simple math. I wouldn't be surprised if the Gallardo couldn't run a sub 1.20 lap at Summit yet a HONDA CIVIC did it this weekend.

Montego

iTrader: (1)

Oh come on that $112K price tag for the GT3 HAS to buy you something...

no_more_rice

With an unknown driver. As we all know, the driver makes up the lion's share of the equation. I could probably beat some rich clown and his new Porcshe toy with a turbo VW bus, which proves nothing. Let's see you run a properly modded GT3 with a driver who has experience similar to your own. We're comparing modded to modded, right? Isn't that fair?

"Well set-up" being key (not stock)

Whatever.

You need to take a ride in a Gallardo with a good set of tires sometime - I have, and I'm quite sure you haven't ....the FD isn't the all conquering world beater you think it is, sorry - we need someone with a little more balanced track experience. If simplistic power-to-weight equations were really all that mattered, the GT-R would not be as fast as it is - oh wait, I'm sure you can spank those, too

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

Just turned into a pissing match at that point. It's definitely back to being entertaining.


~S~

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Those magazines hire pro drivers when they do their comparisons. I'm an amatuer beating the pro driven GT3

However as silly as this argument is just admit that the 350 rwhp track prepped FD kicks the GT3s *** upside down and backwards (and it should) it's OK to be WRONG.

The 7 can't lose

I really think this is one of the greatest cars ever made and I can't even express how lucky I feel to have driven them on various road courses for the better part of 10 years.

The only other car I'd bother with is a GT3 **** a damn Gallardo it's just another fat *** rich mans play toy.

no_more_rice

Fritz, your zeal is commendable, but I think you're delusional. We've already noted that modded GT3 lap times for Mosport were far ahead of wird's times, and he was over 350 rwhp. The only way you're beating GT3s is bone stock with crappy street tires. Shoot a vid next year with all the details, then I might listen.

To quote jimlab, the -7- does lose, all the time

no_more_rice

Gordon - you may have mis-read my post, I was quoting Jim a bit tongue-in-cheek there, I didn't mean the -7- loses ALL the time, but that it loses races all the time, I guess it depends on the inflection lost in translation. Anyway, if I didn't love the FD I wouldn't own one, I just recognize it's limitations.

Regarding Mosport track times and Fritz's claim that a 350 rwhp FD will walk all over a GT3, the facts simply don't support his case. Note post #203 of the following http://www.planet-9.com/cayman-boxst...tml#post484114 and vid http://vimeo.com/13775609 this is a relatively stock Cayman S, which is considerably less powerful than the GT3, and it still turned low 1:32s, which is faster than wird's best time making over 350 rwhp

I'm all for FD love, but let's come back down to earth, folks

96fd3s

Spend the same $ on an FD as a GT3 and the FD will eat it alive.
People are not disputing that a stock FD will loose to a stock GT3.
People are saying that an FD can be competitive with some money spent on it. They are not saying a stock FD is better then a stock GT3.

no more rice - is your car an automatic?

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

You aren't reading my post or your post.

The stock GT3 comes from the factory with race tires because it's basically a race car. It has Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires mounted from the factory that's hardly a street tire it's comparable to a Hoosier R6. I was driving on Toyo R888s which are high performance street/track tires a couple of steps below an R6 or Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tire. These tires were not fresh and already had two days from the VIR S course on them and again were offset which isn't my preferred setup.

You were never talking about cup cars you wanted proof that the lowly 350 rwhp FD could out perform the GT3 and I served it to you on a silver platter with facts and video.

Hell no my FD can't compete against a 400 plus rwhp Cup car that weighs 2600 pounds and has the very best parts on it that money can buy............. You can win that debate before it starts.

Anywho I'm proud that my FD is as fast as most of todays very best factory cars and if that's not good enough for you then no worries but it's good enough for me.

no_more_rice

Any comment on the fact that a lowly Cayman S in the "prepared" stock class is faster than wird with his highly modded FD? See, it's not as simple as "I beat x car on y day and therefore my car is better". The GT3 is a worthy track weapon, a similarly modified one is going to lose to a 350 rwhp FD, much less get walked (or whatever colorful verbiage you care to use) - not a chance in hell.

Let's move on....

no_more_rice

excuse me "is not"

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

you should go to the track more. ive seen some crazy things, just because one car works out on paper, or in a magazine to be faster, doesn't mean it always is in real life. sometimes, but sometimes not.

it is fun to bench race though!

one of the most fun rides ive ever had was marios 340hp miata... its a little nuts, he got in trouble for passing an ACR viper too much.

shifti

Boys and girls listen up..!
five rx7`s from 360 to 500 hp, watch and see ho wins..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXgjwwEKy_c

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Hey it's your thread.

Thanks for the entertainment