Does 500 rwhp make an FD more enjoyable to drive? (13b only)
11-01-10, 12:28 AM
#176
i got my FD somewhere at 380-400whp @ 15psi boost (havent dyno'd numbers are guesstimation). its single turbo and i still enjoy the car greatly. i never rode in a twin turbo FD before but i can see why guys prefer the twins because of that quick response. it hasnt become less user friendly to where its unbearable just a bitch to start when its cold.
11-01-10, 08:41 AM
#180
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Fritz... You say, "of course I would rather own and drive a 997 GT3". Why? Its not at all clear to me that a well set up FD is not as fast or faster and for similar or less dollars. As I see newer cars coming out, I notice that much of the advances have been in computer assists and not in suspension geometry. No doubt the FD does not have the aid of the newer computerized traction control, but its suspension was and remains the peak of the art. I don't think there are many, if any, modern sports cars with a more advanced suspension design than the FD. Howard points to the 2 degrees of negative camber pickup through the arc of travel, as a case in point.
If you want to further improve the FD's handling, you can get one of the more advanced aftermarket computers that offer a variety of traction control systems. If you are saying the Porsche cabin is a nicer place to steer from, you need to drive my car... Just as you can make the FD's drivetrain strong enough to compete with the Porsche on the track, you can redo the interior to be as nice as well.
Also, in regard to everyone's favorite Porsche, I haven't driven the newest one, but all the 911's I have ever driven require such a different and unnatural driving style that I find it less appealing than the best front engined rear drive cars. You really can't drive them through the corners. You use the phenomenal braking to late brake in deep and then stop. You then accelerate out hard, which works incredibly well with the engine located behind the rear axle. Not my cuppa tea. Now, I know they've softened a lot of that behavior over the years, but anyone who has never driven a Porsche will still find this unsettling. Its not as bad as the older Porsche's counterintuitive mid corner behavior where you have to accelerate harder to tighten your line and cannot let off without risk of spinning.
I modified and keep and drive my car, because I like it more than anything else, although I do love my E30 M3 almost as much... I wish more of you had a chance to drive my naturally aspirated 20b car. I think it would stop anyone from wanting a GT3.
Gordon
If you want to further improve the FD's handling, you can get one of the more advanced aftermarket computers that offer a variety of traction control systems. If you are saying the Porsche cabin is a nicer place to steer from, you need to drive my car... Just as you can make the FD's drivetrain strong enough to compete with the Porsche on the track, you can redo the interior to be as nice as well.
Also, in regard to everyone's favorite Porsche, I haven't driven the newest one, but all the 911's I have ever driven require such a different and unnatural driving style that I find it less appealing than the best front engined rear drive cars. You really can't drive them through the corners. You use the phenomenal braking to late brake in deep and then stop. You then accelerate out hard, which works incredibly well with the engine located behind the rear axle. Not my cuppa tea. Now, I know they've softened a lot of that behavior over the years, but anyone who has never driven a Porsche will still find this unsettling. Its not as bad as the older Porsche's counterintuitive mid corner behavior where you have to accelerate harder to tighten your line and cannot let off without risk of spinning.
I modified and keep and drive my car, because I like it more than anything else, although I do love my E30 M3 almost as much... I wish more of you had a chance to drive my naturally aspirated 20b car. I think it would stop anyone from wanting a GT3.
Gordon
Since owning/driving my current car on track for 4.5 years this is what's been done:
Replaced engine: 7k track miles and it had low compression. The current engine may have questionable problems with atkins solid corner seals and I may need another one soon but like always my fingers are crossed
2 trans: 1st one did fine (killed the main bearing which will happen after about 5k hard track miles) 2nd one was junk to begin with and the 3rd is OK but not great
1 diff: the 1st one had a slow leak and was low on fluid when I got the car so I cooked the bearings
2 oil coolers: vibrations kept cracking the fitting at the coolers but I fooled with the brackets some and added rubber bushings and it hasn't happened since but I'm also pretty careful about taking short cuts.
Turbo issues: manifold and DP problems wg diaphragm etc...
and lots of other little things
I'm just a lot talk when it comes to switching to a GT3 but it's fun to dream
. Regarding the GT3s seat vibe:
very similar to an FD with neutral handling and very good grip in and through the corner. Better acceleration because of the power band and tall gearing but also a similar long stream of constant building power that's just a super cool sensation to me.
The current big v8 cars kill it because they have even more power and torque not because the P car is a beast to drive. I'd bet the entry speeds of the Porsche are faster than the corvette but the corvette can power out.
11-01-10, 09:08 AM
#181
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You should hear some of the BS folks will sling at the track thewird is just having some fun and nobody takes that nonsense seriously. Like Mahjik (sp?) said you can make anything fast but I think everyone would agree that some cars are a lot easier to make fast/drive fast and the FD is one of those cars and I think it could be, maybe, if you think long enough about it, THE ONE hehe
11-01-10, 09:59 AM
#183
For me it's just a very simple solution to dealing with all the little problems that crop up when tracking an older car that wasn't necessarily designed to make 350 rwhp. The GT3 has it's own issues as well but a trip to the local dealer should resolve them and things like the trans and engine were overbuilt so they are fairly reliable cars when it comes to the big problems that will shut your weekend down.
Your post (in its entirety) is basically what I was referring to earlier. A GT3 is just made to do these things. You can make any car do them, and be fast, but it requires money and/or effort. I know for myself, I'm getting past the stage where wrenching is enjoyable.
However, back on topic. I don't have a 500rwhp FD. I'm more in the 340-350 range. I don't drive my car nearly as much as when it was mostly stock. I've never been a high HP person. I prefer light, peppy cars which is probably why I long for a Lotus Exige. I think it all depends on the individual and what you like about driving. If you like blasting down the highway trying to race everyone, 500rwhp is fun. If you just like cruising and occasionally having fun on some twisty roads, I don't think getting to 500rwhp is going to give you much more enjoyment.
11-01-10, 10:16 AM
#184
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Fritz,
Your post (in its entirety) is basically what I was referring to earlier. A GT3 is just made to do these things. You can make any car do them, and be fast, but it requires money and/or effort. I know for myself, I'm getting past the stage where wrenching is enjoyable.
However, back on topic. I don't have a 500rwhp FD. I'm more in the 340-350 range. I don't drive my car nearly as much as when it was mostly stock. I've never been a high HP person. I prefer light, peppy cars which is probably why I long for a Lotus Exige. I think it all depends on the individual and what you like about driving. If you like blasting down the highway trying to race everyone, 500rwhp is fun. If you just like cruising and occasionally having fun on some twisty roads, I don't think getting to 500rwhp is going to give you much more enjoyment.
Your post (in its entirety) is basically what I was referring to earlier. A GT3 is just made to do these things. You can make any car do them, and be fast, but it requires money and/or effort. I know for myself, I'm getting past the stage where wrenching is enjoyable.
However, back on topic. I don't have a 500rwhp FD. I'm more in the 340-350 range. I don't drive my car nearly as much as when it was mostly stock. I've never been a high HP person. I prefer light, peppy cars which is probably why I long for a Lotus Exige. I think it all depends on the individual and what you like about driving. If you like blasting down the highway trying to race everyone, 500rwhp is fun. If you just like cruising and occasionally having fun on some twisty roads, I don't think getting to 500rwhp is going to give you much more enjoyment.
Most of us FD dudes want the same thing so why won't mazda get off their asses and actually do what we've been asking them to do for 10 plus years and build a 3 rotor FD.
Lotus cars are overpriced factory kit cars so you may as well buy a kit car
Admittedly though it's one of the cars I've also been thinking about for the last several years and there have been some really good deals the last couple of years but like moving to a GT3, C6Z or whatever else is sitting in the back of my mind I can't get out of the FD it's just too much fun.
11-01-10, 10:31 AM
#186
I hope this was a rhetorical question, because the answer is emissions and cost. The entire auto industry is downsizing engines and focusing on technology like start/stop and gasoline direct injection to produce more power and better emissions. If BMW is killing their V10 there's no way Mazda is going to sell a 3 rotor. It's easy to say "we want another FD type of car" but what you and most people mean is that they would buy one used 5 years later. A new FD would be priced like a GTR.
11-01-10, 10:46 AM
#187
I hope this was a rhetorical question, because the answer is emissions and cost. The entire auto industry is downsizing engines and focusing on technology like start/stop and gasoline direct injection to produce more power and better emissions. If BMW is killing their V10 there's no way Mazda is going to sell a 3 rotor. It's easy to say "we want another FD type of car" but what you and most people mean is that they would buy one used 5 years later. A new FD would be priced like a GTR.
11-01-10, 10:52 AM
#188
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I am sorry I disagree. There are folk out there who would buy a car like your talking about. They just don't post on the boards. I have been surprised at how many true sports car enthusiast actually still own FD's. I have seen quite a few ferrari, lambo, and porsche owners who have a FD stashed away.
As for emissions and pulling power. Have you looked around?? The Vette has 600+ from the factory, viper same thing, camaro 400+, mustang 400+, shall I go on??? I could care less what BMW is doing. They are also strapping turbos to about everything. Next we will be talking about a Prius.
As for emissions and pulling power. Have you looked around?? The Vette has 600+ from the factory, viper same thing, camaro 400+, mustang 400+, shall I go on??? I could care less what BMW is doing. They are also strapping turbos to about everything. Next we will be talking about a Prius.
11-01-10, 11:06 AM
#189
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I hope this was a rhetorical question, because the answer is emissions and cost. The entire auto industry is downsizing engines and focusing on technology like start/stop and gasoline direct injection to produce more power and better emissions. If BMW is killing their V10 there's no way Mazda is going to sell a 3 rotor. It's easy to say "we want another FD type of car" but what you and most people mean is that they would buy one used 5 years later. A new FD would be priced like a GTR.
Of course I'm aware that this is a pipe dream and many obstacles would need to be addressed but I think it could be done with the right leadership and that it would be a wise move for the Mazda brand.
11-01-10, 11:39 AM
#190
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11-01-10, 11:45 AM
#191
It has noting to do with Mazda not being able to figure it out - it's a money problem. Mazda is a relatively poor car company working with an engine that is still in its engineering infancy when compard to a piston engine where dozens of companies with thousands of engineers have dumped resources (i.e. cash) into research and development for over a century. In another day and time when real car guys ran car companies instead of MBA's who live and die by quarterly results, I'd have more faith in a 3-rotor, turbocharged supercar that would dominate the competition. Until then, some of us have to be happy making the FD how we think Mazda should have made it and I'm with the turbocharged, mega hp contingent.
Jack
Jack
11-01-10, 11:51 AM
#193
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Fritz,
Your post (in its entirety) is basically what I was referring to earlier. A GT3 is just made to do these things. You can make any car do them, and be fast, but it requires money and/or effort. I know for myself, I'm getting past the stage where wrenching is enjoyable.
Your post (in its entirety) is basically what I was referring to earlier. A GT3 is just made to do these things. You can make any car do them, and be fast, but it requires money and/or effort. I know for myself, I'm getting past the stage where wrenching is enjoyable.
Yes, the GT3 is pricey, but I know a guy who bought a pristine white '07 for a little under 70k, and there are certainly many FD owners here who have $40-50k invested in their cars.
11-01-10, 12:06 PM
#194
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Sounds like you need a GT3 then.
Having driven them (porsche) I am meh about them. I thought I really wanted one at one point and time, until I was around them. The build quality is superior to the FD especially interior wise, but its the same basic thing since the 60's. If Mazda used the same chassis and only made improvements to it until 2043 it would be **** don't you think????
Too many other great cars. I would take a ACR viper over a GT3 anyday. But I still come back to the FD everytime. I have looked at them all and I just can't justify any of them over the FD when it comes right down to it. When you go the mile and look at all the amazing cars and then get into your FD and rip it through the corners leaving the Air park it just puts a nice smile on my face.
Again we need to enjoy our cars for what they are and quit all the comparisions because we can do it all day long. It is what it is. Everyone isn't born w/ a 14" third leg.
Having driven them (porsche) I am meh about them. I thought I really wanted one at one point and time, until I was around them. The build quality is superior to the FD especially interior wise, but its the same basic thing since the 60's. If Mazda used the same chassis and only made improvements to it until 2043 it would be **** don't you think????
Too many other great cars. I would take a ACR viper over a GT3 anyday. But I still come back to the FD everytime. I have looked at them all and I just can't justify any of them over the FD when it comes right down to it. When you go the mile and look at all the amazing cars and then get into your FD and rip it through the corners leaving the Air park it just puts a nice smile on my face.
Again we need to enjoy our cars for what they are and quit all the comparisions because we can do it all day long. It is what it is. Everyone isn't born w/ a 14" third leg.
11-01-10, 02:58 PM
#195
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God damn it, all this talk of FDs on the track is getting me all hot to trot to get my car ready for next season....just as soon as property taxes are paid, I'm getting a full containment Kirkey seat, seat brace, 6 point harness, HANS, and new steering wheel with disconnect as the next investment. At these speeds the stock seat and belt are just not appropriate, and I can't hold my 195 lbs in the seat anymore.
And Howard, agree with 'coil over tower' vs. 'strut tower', just using the common vernacular....I do believe Cam has experienced tower cracking and has built up additional reinforcement on past cars in that area....and as far as brakes, I'm still on stockers with R4 pads from Porterfield, but I figure as soon as I get the seat and harness I'll be able to hold things better in corners and therefore start braking deeper and harder, and will need to go with a BBK - you still using the Racing Brake system? I'm guessing that will be the way I go based on your extensive write up and lack of anything new introduced since they released the 2nd generation of their kit that no longer requres grinding......
And Howard, agree with 'coil over tower' vs. 'strut tower', just using the common vernacular....I do believe Cam has experienced tower cracking and has built up additional reinforcement on past cars in that area....and as far as brakes, I'm still on stockers with R4 pads from Porterfield, but I figure as soon as I get the seat and harness I'll be able to hold things better in corners and therefore start braking deeper and harder, and will need to go with a BBK - you still using the Racing Brake system? I'm guessing that will be the way I go based on your extensive write up and lack of anything new introduced since they released the 2nd generation of their kit that no longer requres grinding......
11-01-10, 03:51 PM
#196
Yep and thanks for clearly summing up the general consensus of this thread so now lets start talking about a 3 rotor NA group buy
Most of us FD dudes want the same thing so why won't mazda get off their asses and actually do what we've been asking them to do for 10 plus years and build a 3 rotor FD.
Lotus cars are overpriced factory kit cars so you may as well buy a kit car Admittedly though it's one of the cars I've also been thinking about for the last several years and there have been some really good deals the last couple of years but like moving to a GT3, C6Z or whatever else is sitting in the back of my mind I can't get out of the FD it's just too much fun.
Most of us FD dudes want the same thing so why won't mazda get off their asses and actually do what we've been asking them to do for 10 plus years and build a 3 rotor FD.
Lotus cars are overpriced factory kit cars so you may as well buy a kit car
Admittedly though it's one of the cars I've also been thinking about for the last several years and there have been some really good deals the last couple of years but like moving to a GT3, C6Z or whatever else is sitting in the back of my mind I can't get out of the FD it's just too much fun.IMO, Mazda has missed it's market for another rotary powered sports car. The idea of the lower powered lightweight sports car is going away. Bigger cars with all the creature comforts and tons of power are what's selling today. Lotus themselves are beginning to move away from their Elise/Exige lines in favor of more touring style sporty cars. Heck, their next Elan will be about 450hp! Mazda would need something around 2200 lbs or less and at least 320hp to raise any eyebrows and I'm not even sure that would be enough. Since increasing the rotary power seems to decrease it's longevity seemly by quite a bit (i.e. look at turbo charged rotaries verses NA), the best option for Mazda would be to decrease weight instead of increasing power. However, the stripped out cars just aren't what the general public is looking for these days.
11-01-10, 04:25 PM
#197
People have been saying that for decades. The pendulum swings back and forth as times change. Mazda has been cutting weight and increasing efficiency in their entire lineup though. The rumor mills are saying that the new Mx-5 will weigh around as much as the original models from 20 years ago.
Since increasing the rotary power seems to decrease it's longevity seemly by quite a bit (i.e. look at turbo charged rotaries verses NA), the best option for Mazda would be to decrease weight instead of increasing power.
11-01-10, 04:37 PM
#198
People have been saying that for decades. The pendulum swings back and forth as times change. Mazda has been cutting weight and increasing efficiency in their entire lineup though. The rumor mills are saying that the new Mx-5 will weigh around as much as the original models from 20 years ago.
11-01-10, 05:00 PM
#199
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11-01-10, 05:00 PM
#200
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Thrash an FD at the track long enough and stuff is going to start breaking, I think Fritz's post on the previous page proves this....what I like about the GT3 is everything is so overbuilt, the car is designd ground-up to withstand the rigors of track abuse. The FD is somewhat fragile by comparison, and anything above 400 rwhp really pushes the original design to it's breaking point on mutiple fronts.
Yes, the GT3 is pricey, but I know a guy who bought a pristine white '07 for a little under 70k, and there are certainly many FD owners here who have $40-50k invested in their cars.
Yes, the GT3 is pricey, but I know a guy who bought a pristine white '07 for a little under 70k, and there are certainly many FD owners here who have $40-50k invested in their cars.
