Does 500 rwhp make an FD more enjoyable to drive? (13b only)
10-26-10, 04:23 PM
#27
No it's not Turbo'd
I tried to achieve 425 RWHP, on pump Gas, and sunk nearly $20k into the project by the time I had V-Mount, Fuel Rails, Fuel Pumps, Turbo, Spark, and ECU, and I got handed back two broken apex seals, and a busted turbine... and I called it quits. Each car I saw on the dyno (all rotaries) had different issues, from spark to timing sensors, to ECU, to wiring harness turbo actuators, boost controllers, you name it we had issues with it. And that and a busted motor convinced me I wanted to have something I can enjoy without fear. So for me it was a cost / benefit failure.
10-26-10, 04:42 PM
#28
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Even with 315s I have to believe you'd struggle to find traction, especially in slower corners. It's been proven in the SCC shootout years ago that a mildly tuned FD retaining the stock twins and making about 320 rwhp can beat up on single turbo Supras producing 500-600+ rwhp. If you can get the power to the ground (and maintain it), great, but I don't see that happening in an FD without sophisticated traction control
10-26-10, 05:17 PM
#30
Even with 315s I have to believe you'd struggle to find traction, especially in slower corners. It's been proven in the SCC shootout years ago that a mildly tuned FD retaining the stock twins and making about 320 rwhp can beat up on single turbo Supras producing 500-600+ rwhp. If you can get the power to the ground (and maintain it), great, but I don't see that happening in an FD without sophisticated traction control
10-26-10, 05:26 PM
#31
I tried to achieve 425 RWHP, on pump Gas, and sunk nearly $20k into the project by the time I had V-Mount, Fuel Rails, Fuel Pumps, Turbo, Spark, and ECU, and I got handed back two broken apex seals, and a busted turbine... and I called it quits. Each car I saw on the dyno (all rotaries) had different issues, from spark to timing sensors, to ECU, to wiring harness turbo actuators, boost controllers, you name it we had issues with it. And that and a busted motor convinced me I wanted to have something I can enjoy without fear. So for me it was a cost / benefit failure.
On a side note i can see how a 320hp fd could be way fun as you dont have to worry about traction issues all day long like a 500hp fd unless u have lots of straight aways then a 500hp fd is pointless on the track. LOl hate to say it but a video game like Forza would give u the perfect example
10-26-10, 08:29 PM
#33
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Good thread. When I started modding my stock FD, it lost some of the drive ability it had. I up graded to BNR's during this time, and was happy with the response. I loved the in town feel of the car, and some spirited driving say 1rst to end of third. Going in to 4th gear and beyond I got bored of the power.
I sold the above car, and purchased a modded single turbo car GT35R. Now I miss the low end response of the twins, and the top end does not seem to be MUCH better. In my opinion it does not live up to the hype I built in my head. I also need to keep in mind it is running fairly low boost, has heavy rims, and stock flywheel. All of which my previous car had the luxury of not having.
I find myself at a point where I am not sure what to do. I have been reading post after post ( threads like Rich's) and wondering should I get a better turbo? If I got a 500R, or a similar one will that turbo live up to my expectations.... Also do you lose more drive ability from the car?
Anyway, kind of saying my peace, and also venting
I sold the above car, and purchased a modded single turbo car GT35R. Now I miss the low end response of the twins, and the top end does not seem to be MUCH better. In my opinion it does not live up to the hype I built in my head. I also need to keep in mind it is running fairly low boost, has heavy rims, and stock flywheel. All of which my previous car had the luxury of not having.
I find myself at a point where I am not sure what to do. I have been reading post after post ( threads like Rich's) and wondering should I get a better turbo? If I got a 500R, or a similar one will that turbo live up to my expectations.... Also do you lose more drive ability from the car?
Anyway, kind of saying my peace, and also venting
10-26-10, 08:34 PM
#34
i agree with what everyone is saying about not needing the power, but how does this compare to a smaller single with 400whp like a 35r or similar? would you still prefer the stock twins? of course a large single will be boring till it comes on but i'm not after a high hp number.
When it comes to turbo charging and creating a response driving experience, the goal is to create as much positive manifold pressure as low in the rpm band as possible. That's why the twins are so enjoyable as is they spool fast enough to make over 200lbs at 2,500 rpms. 35R (while a great single) still can't match that. A lot of the single converters get too caught up in the MAX whp number. Me the top end is the last thing I worry about. It's all about the low an mid range.
10-26-10, 09:24 PM
#35
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I would also toss off without a lot of thought that the basic car -- the chassis -- us not really designed or at least well-designed for that kind of power, which is another reason 500+ whp cars often have chromoly half shafts, different transmissions, extra bracing, and on and on.
10-26-10, 09:34 PM
#36
When it comes to making a high horsepower rotary with response and spool like the twins its not that hard to achieve as manifold designs go into effect and length of runners and intercooler piping ect... Not to many have tried the VGT turbo's like the ones off the 6.0l fords and cummins motors but i have seen thos turbos in action on hondas in my area and they are pretty bad *** but bulky
10-26-10, 09:48 PM
#38
No more rice, Are you in charlotte? Might have talked to you before but mine is right at 500 and I never get on it in the city. With The open wastegate and non-muffled 4in exhaust its just too easy for a cop to hear. In charlotte its pretty much a freeway monster 485, 85, 77 etc. I do miss the ease of boosting whenever i wanted to with the twins, but then i get in the car now and it cures that thought really quick no regrets whatsoever.
no regrets whatsoever.
10-26-10, 09:52 PM
#39
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Concur with T-von and Gordon
As a track only FDer in ther 400 rwhp club, I concur with T-von, Gordon, and Fritz. It also depends on the track. Longer tracks like Thunderhill can allow you to take advantage of the additional power and still enjoy the ride, but as Gordon said you do have to be a bit careful in mid-corner, esp depending on what gear you are in. Hammering a mid-size single like mine in 2nd out of a hairpin is an almost guaranteed spin situation, while you don't have to be as careful in 3rd or 4th, the power isn't as peaky. On the higher speed sweepers that lead into or out of straights where you can use the power, the grin on your face is priceless.
Shorter tracks become more of a chore to drive - I found Infineon to be very uncomfortable with the higher horsepower because without aero, the *** end really wants to come out...and Infineon has walls on both side very close to you. Not a foregiving track, one reason why so many high horsepower streen machines leave that track on a flatbed with lots of wrinkles on them each weekend.
And you have to get bigger meat on the back, like 11 or 12" wheels to handle the power when you get to the 500 club...and as others said, that expensive, leads to other mods like fenders and flares, etc. you also need 10's or even 11s for the front and downforce on the front to ensure the nose will point in the right direction when you turn with that much power on the butt end of the car.
I will say the car is much more enjoyable with 400 rwhp and the new JKL A-Spec replica wing than the stock R1 wing. I used to step out the rear 6 inches hitting 4th apexing on turn 7 at Thill and now the *** end stays planted and the car is much more predictable at high speed....
also have all the mods like tranny braces and bushings and trailing arms and fuel and computer and cage and race gas and $$$$$$........the gains become incrementally more expensive in order to retain the pleasure.
and over time you'll see stress fractures in the strut towers of the FD once you apply all these mods and flog the car hard, and eventually have to do tube frame mods and new welds and reinforcements after removing the dum dum sealer in that area, which Gordon alluded to regarding the chassis. Cam Worth from Pettit ended up going with z06 rear ends and dog boxes, Damien has done serious tranny mods such that his tranny is nothing like stock anymore, and his aero is top notch and expensive...we're all insane, really.
Shorter tracks become more of a chore to drive - I found Infineon to be very uncomfortable with the higher horsepower because without aero, the *** end really wants to come out...and Infineon has walls on both side very close to you. Not a foregiving track, one reason why so many high horsepower streen machines leave that track on a flatbed with lots of wrinkles on them each weekend.
And you have to get bigger meat on the back, like 11 or 12" wheels to handle the power when you get to the 500 club...and as others said, that expensive, leads to other mods like fenders and flares, etc. you also need 10's or even 11s for the front and downforce on the front to ensure the nose will point in the right direction when you turn with that much power on the butt end of the car.
I will say the car is much more enjoyable with 400 rwhp and the new JKL A-Spec replica wing than the stock R1 wing. I used to step out the rear 6 inches hitting 4th apexing on turn 7 at Thill and now the *** end stays planted and the car is much more predictable at high speed....
also have all the mods like tranny braces and bushings and trailing arms and fuel and computer and cage and race gas and $$$$$$........the gains become incrementally more expensive in order to retain the pleasure.
and over time you'll see stress fractures in the strut towers of the FD once you apply all these mods and flog the car hard, and eventually have to do tube frame mods and new welds and reinforcements after removing the dum dum sealer in that area, which Gordon alluded to regarding the chassis. Cam Worth from Pettit ended up going with z06 rear ends and dog boxes, Damien has done serious tranny mods such that his tranny is nothing like stock anymore, and his aero is top notch and expensive...we're all insane, really.
10-26-10, 10:26 PM
#40
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I wanted a 500hp fd but looking at the cost of the fuel system, clutch, and buying a nice expensive turbo. I would be pushing the motor to its limits and when it went it would most likely take that turbo with it. So I decided to go with a v8 and after selling my motor and goodies its going to cost me less to have the hp and reliability I want not to mention the awesome gas mileage. I love the rotary but really the only people who win with them are the vendors.
10-26-10, 11:06 PM
#41
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Ha, well some of us. I haven't dumped a penny into my car, aside from gas and insurance, in at least four years and it runs like a top. I have no real desire to make more power, because I get into enough trouble as it is, and don't have any problems with competition here in Charlotte. Let's face it, folks, modding this car is a 100% (or greater) negative return investment. As much as I applaud what Rich has done with his car, even he would admit he could have bought a GT3 by now, and, sorry I don't love FDs quite that much....
10-26-10, 11:25 PM
#43
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I have had many sports cars from stock to built. Although it is fun to tear up the street in a 400 hp car, there is no better feeling than the G forces when you drive a 600+ car.
The 3 I was referring to were a H/C/I 408 stroker C5 Vette with a plate kit spraying a 200 shot. Was just a little south of 700 hp though a built auto. Second was a H/C/I built 347 LS1 with a plate kit spraying a 200 shot as well. Made right at 650 through a 6 speed. And last was a 04 Cobra with a ported blower, full bolt ons, and a shot on top.
After owning those three when I am in a 400 hp car it feels like it won't get out of its own way.
The 3 I was referring to were a H/C/I 408 stroker C5 Vette with a plate kit spraying a 200 shot. Was just a little south of 700 hp though a built auto. Second was a H/C/I built 347 LS1 with a plate kit spraying a 200 shot as well. Made right at 650 through a 6 speed. And last was a 04 Cobra with a ported blower, full bolt ons, and a shot on top.
After owning those three when I am in a 400 hp car it feels like it won't get out of its own way.
10-27-10, 12:55 AM
#44
The low end torque and "instant spool" of the twins really isn't that impressive these days. Maybe for an early 90s car it is, but not now.
I've been tuning Subarus lately. The 2.5 motors make gobs of torque by 3000-4000rpm (easily 350-400 torque) even with a bolt-on turbo, partly because you can reliably wind them to over 20psi on straight pump fuel. After driving those cars when I then drive a sequential FD the low end is meh (better than a single FD though), the transition is irritating, and the top end just isn't that great either.
I've been tuning Subarus lately. The 2.5 motors make gobs of torque by 3000-4000rpm (easily 350-400 torque) even with a bolt-on turbo, partly because you can reliably wind them to over 20psi on straight pump fuel. After driving those cars when I then drive a sequential FD the low end is meh (better than a single FD though), the transition is irritating, and the top end just isn't that great either.
10-27-10, 01:21 AM
#45
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Even with 315s I have to believe you'd struggle to find traction, especially in slower corners. It's been proven in the SCC shootout years ago that a mildly tuned FD retaining the stock twins and making about 320 rwhp can beat up on single turbo Supras producing 500-600+ rwhp. If you can get the power to the ground (and maintain it), great, but I don't see that happening in an FD without sophisticated traction control
. But yeah, really I think traction is the limiting fun factor... when you run out of traction it switches from fun to praying. So I think the real question is, at what HP do you no longer have traction (which depends on tire width, type, alignment), but I would wager that unless you're doing over 120 in 5th... anything over 550 with no traction control is useless.
10-27-10, 06:27 AM
#46
Race logic... or... a smart boost controller that had a g-sensor in it. That would be a big help to people... automatically turns the boost down for you when it senses lateral forces .
But yeah, really I think traction is the limiting fun factor... when you run out of traction it switches from fun to praying. So I think the real question is, at what HP do you no longer have traction (which depends on tire width, type, alignment), but I would wager that unless you're doing over 120 in 5th... anything over 550 with no traction control is useless.
. But yeah, really I think traction is the limiting fun factor... when you run out of traction it switches from fun to praying. So I think the real question is, at what HP do you no longer have traction (which depends on tire width, type, alignment), but I would wager that unless you're doing over 120 in 5th... anything over 550 with no traction control is useless.
powered car without it. I value my life ,my car and others too much. It also saves tire wear, gets you optimum acceleration and lessens the chance of going out of control.
I have a friend(ironmdnx) building a 1000whp 3-rotor and is looking for one(Racelogic).
Ken
10-27-10, 08:27 AM
#47
I think the fun is partly in hp, partly in response which are two seperate things and looks like they are mixed up in some of the posts here.
Stock twins vs. BNR twins vs. Big Single has been discussed many times in the past but since we're talking RX7 this thread also comes down to same discussion.
I paid for a GT3574R to have the best compromise but now the order is on hold due to some complications on my end and now I'm having second thoughts thinking if I should go with BNR twins. Because what's fun is response combined with high hp
Having said that there is no black and white answer to this topic cause if you have to pick one or the other it really depends on personal preference and the style of driving you do, some like mind blowing acceleration while others prefer telephatic response.
Anyone who has seen this video will know what I mean about high HP with fast response (action starts at 1.29):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-HTmonxbmc
Stock twins vs. BNR twins vs. Big Single has been discussed many times in the past but since we're talking RX7 this thread also comes down to same discussion.
I paid for a GT3574R to have the best compromise but now the order is on hold due to some complications on my end and now I'm having second thoughts thinking if I should go with BNR twins. Because what's fun is response combined with high hp
Having said that there is no black and white answer to this topic cause if you have to pick one or the other it really depends on personal preference and the style of driving you do, some like mind blowing acceleration while others prefer telephatic response. Anyone who has seen this video will know what I mean about high HP with fast response (action starts at 1.29):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-HTmonxbmc
10-27-10, 08:43 AM
#48
The tough thing to quantify is the quality of the power and the driveability of the car relative to it... as Fritz said, I'd be more than happy to have 700 hp if it spooled up nicely, had a reasonably wide powerband, and it was still semi-pleasant to drive.
I had a friend with a 900 hp Supra, that certainly had a fun element to it, but when the thing doesn't spool until 5k rpm then instantly smokes the tires, you can't get a smooth tractable launch at toll booths or in traffic because of the puck clutch needed to hold the power, and you're listening to the constant noise of the fuel pumps in the back, it sorta kills your wood real fast.
I had a friend with a 900 hp Supra, that certainly had a fun element to it, but when the thing doesn't spool until 5k rpm then instantly smokes the tires, you can't get a smooth tractable launch at toll booths or in traffic because of the puck clutch needed to hold the power, and you're listening to the constant noise of the fuel pumps in the back, it sorta kills your wood real fast.
10-27-10, 09:31 AM
#49
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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I have had many sports cars from stock to built. Although it is fun to tear up the street in a 400 hp car, there is no better feeling than the G forces when you drive a 600+ car.
The 3 I was referring to were a H/C/I 408 stroker C5 Vette with a plate kit spraying a 200 shot. Was just a little south of 700 hp though a built auto. Second was a H/C/I built 347 LS1 with a plate kit spraying a 200 shot as well. Made right at 650 through a 6 speed. And last was a 04 Cobra with a ported blower, full bolt ons, and a shot on top.
After owning those three when I am in a 400 hp car it feels like it won't get out of its own way.
The 3 I was referring to were a H/C/I 408 stroker C5 Vette with a plate kit spraying a 200 shot. Was just a little south of 700 hp though a built auto. Second was a H/C/I built 347 LS1 with a plate kit spraying a 200 shot as well. Made right at 650 through a 6 speed. And last was a 04 Cobra with a ported blower, full bolt ons, and a shot on top.
After owning those three when I am in a 400 hp car it feels like it won't get out of its own way.
Also, for all those talking about traction issues..... for the street (and the road race course, for now) I've found my solution, these tires are nothing short of amazing:
http://www.yokohamatire.com/tires/advan_ad08.aspx
10-27-10, 09:38 AM
#50
enjoyable to drive is subject to change at any moment.
i like driving my modded car as much as i also enjoy driving stock cars which drive smooth and quiet, you can't feel every rock on the road or hear the screaming exhaust just while you are cruising.
i enjoy the modded car for once you get into boost that pull into your seat is just an awesome feeling and knowing your car is quicker than most anything around. add in the stiffer tighter suspension that won't let go while pushing 90 around a 25 mph dogleg in the road and you have the different reasons why each is a pleasure to drive.
unfortunately for the FD guys it's just not feasable for most to have 2 to own at a given time.
i like driving my modded car as much as i also enjoy driving stock cars which drive smooth and quiet, you can't feel every rock on the road or hear the screaming exhaust just while you are cruising.
i enjoy the modded car for once you get into boost that pull into your seat is just an awesome feeling and knowing your car is quicker than most anything around. add in the stiffer tighter suspension that won't let go while pushing 90 around a 25 mph dogleg in the road and you have the different reasons why each is a pleasure to drive.
unfortunately for the FD guys it's just not feasable for most to have 2 to own at a given time.