crooked willow????
06-30-04, 12:52 PM
#52
Some additional clarifications and observations:
1) CWR hoses are also assembled by a shop that fabricates pressure lines. These aren't done in a garage with a bench vise. And given Duanes occupation in the aerospace industy I'd think he has a shop assembling his hoses that works in the same sector he is employed as are most of the other fabricators building his other parts.
2) Pressure testing IMO is a must do, as Chuck noted for liability concerns. Oil lines see max of 160psi so the need for pressure testing to 1000psi is? I would submit oil line failure is due to fatigue failures over time or improper installation niether of which will be eliminated by a preinstall fabrication pressure test.
3) The CWR kits now use upgraded brackets, not the old thin AL brackets. And as Mark noted the cooler is securely fixed in place and supported by the CF duct. Similarly any bracket rigidly mounted to the chassis is subject to fatigue failure from vibration. Note the stock cooler brackets used a rubber isolator. I reused the same bushing on my install. How many people who had bracket failures used an isolator? Or had to bend the supplied bracket to force fit the kit?
4) The CWR kit also does NOT *require* removal of the AC and PS pump to install. This is only done to remove the old unused OE line.
5) The assertion that ducting is unnecessary is, well...preposterous. To not duct cooling air to a cooler defeats the purpose of the cooler and removes a sizeable portion of the efficiency of the cooler. As Chuck noted the REAL reason for RE not providing a duct is the variety of noses many buyers are using. And I say NOT that a duct is unnecessary. Ever see a purpose built race car with unducted coolers? Common sense folks.
6) Failure of the 90degree bend is a weak point of the CWR kit. And a point which I watch like a hawk on my car. However truth be told I've driven my car for over 2 years with the kit and certainly enough track events and I've had nary a single issue. I would doubt any manufacturing defect in the elbow itself which leaves me to believe a marginal design when compounded by a questionable install (sorry folks) may lead to failure. However, as is typical of this board we only hear the bitching and moaning of those who have had problems. Duane, no doubt, has sold in excess of 100 of these kits over 2 dozen of which are on cars that are tracked regularly. I'm not defending him but realistically the percentage of failures is much lower than what most people think.
As always I'd bet a portion of the "failures" are due to ham fisted installs. I've seen crappy installs of this kit from so called reputable shops so I'm not pointing fingers but as someone noted these aren't really reliability mods unless they are installed with due diligence. One has heard the complaint many a time, "I installed this part and my engine blew." Points finger at the last part installed. So really why was there a failure? It's just so simple to point a finger at someone elses apparent failure...isn't it? Given Duanes disappearence the RE kits are the only other real option but I firmly believe that unless fully ducted a large portion of the coolers capacity/efficiency will be wasted. They do perform well no doubt but why? Perhaps because a 36 or 48 row unducted cooler may work just as well as a 28 row ducted cooler...see the logic?
And FWIW I got my CWR IC and duct on time and quickly, I've had no issues to speak of with the CWR oil cooler kit and am not afraid to hammer my car on the track. Last weekend at VIR in 95deg ambient temps with high humidity I saw a peak oil temp of 216F. Think that's high...with the stock R1 coolers I was seeing 250+ and I wasn't even pushing the car as hard back then.
Trying to set the record straight without much of the opinionated (perhaps I'm being hypocritcal here) non-technical testimonials being offered.
Crispy
1) CWR hoses are also assembled by a shop that fabricates pressure lines. These aren't done in a garage with a bench vise. And given Duanes occupation in the aerospace industy I'd think he has a shop assembling his hoses that works in the same sector he is employed as are most of the other fabricators building his other parts.
2) Pressure testing IMO is a must do, as Chuck noted for liability concerns. Oil lines see max of 160psi so the need for pressure testing to 1000psi is? I would submit oil line failure is due to fatigue failures over time or improper installation niether of which will be eliminated by a preinstall fabrication pressure test.
3) The CWR kits now use upgraded brackets, not the old thin AL brackets. And as Mark noted the cooler is securely fixed in place and supported by the CF duct. Similarly any bracket rigidly mounted to the chassis is subject to fatigue failure from vibration. Note the stock cooler brackets used a rubber isolator. I reused the same bushing on my install. How many people who had bracket failures used an isolator? Or had to bend the supplied bracket to force fit the kit?
4) The CWR kit also does NOT *require* removal of the AC and PS pump to install. This is only done to remove the old unused OE line.
5) The assertion that ducting is unnecessary is, well...preposterous. To not duct cooling air to a cooler defeats the purpose of the cooler and removes a sizeable portion of the efficiency of the cooler. As Chuck noted the REAL reason for RE not providing a duct is the variety of noses many buyers are using. And I say NOT that a duct is unnecessary. Ever see a purpose built race car with unducted coolers? Common sense folks.
6) Failure of the 90degree bend is a weak point of the CWR kit. And a point which I watch like a hawk on my car. However truth be told I've driven my car for over 2 years with the kit and certainly enough track events and I've had nary a single issue. I would doubt any manufacturing defect in the elbow itself which leaves me to believe a marginal design when compounded by a questionable install (sorry folks) may lead to failure. However, as is typical of this board we only hear the bitching and moaning of those who have had problems. Duane, no doubt, has sold in excess of 100 of these kits over 2 dozen of which are on cars that are tracked regularly. I'm not defending him but realistically the percentage of failures is much lower than what most people think.
As always I'd bet a portion of the "failures" are due to ham fisted installs. I've seen crappy installs of this kit from so called reputable shops so I'm not pointing fingers but as someone noted these aren't really reliability mods unless they are installed with due diligence. One has heard the complaint many a time, "I installed this part and my engine blew." Points finger at the last part installed. So really why was there a failure? It's just so simple to point a finger at someone elses apparent failure...isn't it? Given Duanes disappearence the RE kits are the only other real option but I firmly believe that unless fully ducted a large portion of the coolers capacity/efficiency will be wasted. They do perform well no doubt but why? Perhaps because a 36 or 48 row unducted cooler may work just as well as a 28 row ducted cooler...see the logic?
And FWIW I got my CWR IC and duct on time and quickly, I've had no issues to speak of with the CWR oil cooler kit and am not afraid to hammer my car on the track. Last weekend at VIR in 95deg ambient temps with high humidity I saw a peak oil temp of 216F. Think that's high...with the stock R1 coolers I was seeing 250+ and I wasn't even pushing the car as hard back then.
Trying to set the record straight without much of the opinionated (perhaps I'm being hypocritcal here) non-technical testimonials being offered.
Crispy
06-30-04, 01:48 PM
#54
Good post but I have problems with it.
"Given Duane's occupation" he should have never designed those CHEAP aluminum brackets in the first place.
100 units sold with only 3 failures reported here. One on the big list that I know of. That gives a 4% failure rate some people seeing multiple failures on top of that.
OK, 13,500 FDs imported into the country, 4% failure rate = 540 burst oil lines. That population sample of stock coolers and fitting has MANY more street and track miles than any aftermarket setup. I wouldn't be surprised if it were 10x the mileage per car since the kit in question has not been available for 12yrs that the stock system has been out there.
The "ham fisted" install I saw was on the "man's" car himself along with the cheesy brackets.
I do agree that testing to 1000psi doesn't really show much, most failures are fatigue failure not ultimate strength.
"Given Duane's occupation" he should have never designed those CHEAP aluminum brackets in the first place.
100 units sold with only 3 failures reported here. One on the big list that I know of. That gives a 4% failure rate some people seeing multiple failures on top of that.
OK, 13,500 FDs imported into the country, 4% failure rate = 540 burst oil lines. That population sample of stock coolers and fitting has MANY more street and track miles than any aftermarket setup. I wouldn't be surprised if it were 10x the mileage per car since the kit in question has not been available for 12yrs that the stock system has been out there.
The "ham fisted" install I saw was on the "man's" car himself along with the cheesy brackets.
I do agree that testing to 1000psi doesn't really show much, most failures are fatigue failure not ultimate strength.
06-30-04, 02:38 PM
#55
www.silverbulletrx7.com
Thanks Crispy,
You mentioned a lot of the things I was thinking but didn't want to bring up. (Most of all the ducts but I figured I could build my own.) I do feel that the RE kit is probably a good bit better but I'm not sure the increase in cost is warranted particularly without ducts. But I do really like Chuck's products as I said before and he has provided me with some great advice off-line as well. CWC has also sold me some great stuff though so in a few months I'll have to review things and make a choice.
You mentioned a lot of the things I was thinking but didn't want to bring up. (Most of all the ducts but I figured I could build my own.) I do feel that the RE kit is probably a good bit better but I'm not sure the increase in cost is warranted particularly without ducts. But I do really like Chuck's products as I said before and he has provided me with some great advice off-line as well. CWC has also sold me some great stuff though so in a few months I'll have to review things and make a choice.
06-30-04, 02:41 PM
#56
Rebuttal 
Problems? 
When was the last time the installation "program" by all us self qualified mechanics was QA'd? The "man" included. One can have a perfectly designed component and if installed improperly could be rendered useless.
Agree on the AL brackets - sloppy and shortsighted. Scrimping on the brackets was not bright. BUT this is no longer an issue so why dwell in the past?
As for percentage failures, compare apples to apples. An aftermarket component by it's very nature and source will not have anywhere near the same degree of reliability testing as an OE component. If you are trying to make the point that the percentage of failures is too high one can argue though that of the 13,500 FD's imported into the country how many have overheated due to undersized radiators and an underdesigned oil cooling system? 4%? I'd believe probably more
I bet I could have taken a brand new stock FD and overheated iit in a matter of laps on a racetrack in 95 degree heat. And I've proved that a perfectly good "component" in the hands of some doing something that it wasn't intended to handle will fail
But back to your point... 100 kits installed by 100 different people of differing skill level ranging from very experienced to barely know how to hold a tool and 4 failures in 100 is poor? Have to disagree. And I've seen some work on some peoples cars that almost made me loose my lunch as they looked me right in the eye and asked me what a great job they did or how awesome their car was. Untill all parameters are set equal there is no basis to prove either side.
From my own personal perspective I have NEVER purchased an aftermarket part that I have felt required NO additional work or that fit perfectly. Every thing I have installed I have had to augment or re-engineer in some way to ensure it works as *I* would like it too, case in point, using rubber isolators on the oil cooler hangers, and wrapping the SS hoses in locations where abrasion might be an issue. It comes with the territory. You buy a neato gadget from someone with the ingenuity to create a needed part for our cars you takes your chances that it might, just might, not come with the same quality assurance that a factory part will.
In any case the point it mute as Chuck is a smart guy and can charge whatever he wants as he currently has a monopoly on the market given CWRs seemingly in business/out of business practices.
Like I said, I just wanted to clarify what I felt were some gross misconceptions.
Crispy
Problems? When was the last time the installation "program" by all us self qualified mechanics was QA'd? The "man" included. One can have a perfectly designed component and if installed improperly could be rendered useless.
Agree on the AL brackets - sloppy and shortsighted. Scrimping on the brackets was not bright. BUT this is no longer an issue so why dwell in the past?
As for percentage failures, compare apples to apples. An aftermarket component by it's very nature and source will not have anywhere near the same degree of reliability testing as an OE component. If you are trying to make the point that the percentage of failures is too high one can argue though that of the 13,500 FD's imported into the country how many have overheated due to undersized radiators and an underdesigned oil cooling system? 4%? I'd believe probably more
I bet I could have taken a brand new stock FD and overheated iit in a matter of laps on a racetrack in 95 degree heat. And I've proved that a perfectly good "component" in the hands of some doing something that it wasn't intended to handle will fail
But back to your point... 100 kits installed by 100 different people of differing skill level ranging from very experienced to barely know how to hold a tool and 4 failures in 100 is poor? Have to disagree. And I've seen some work on some peoples cars that almost made me loose my lunch as they looked me right in the eye and asked me what a great job they did or how awesome their car was. Untill all parameters are set equal there is no basis to prove either side.
From my own personal perspective I have NEVER purchased an aftermarket part that I have felt required NO additional work or that fit perfectly. Every thing I have installed I have had to augment or re-engineer in some way to ensure it works as *I* would like it too, case in point, using rubber isolators on the oil cooler hangers, and wrapping the SS hoses in locations where abrasion might be an issue. It comes with the territory. You buy a neato gadget from someone with the ingenuity to create a needed part for our cars you takes your chances that it might, just might, not come with the same quality assurance that a factory part will.
In any case the point it mute as Chuck is a smart guy and can charge whatever he wants as he currently has a monopoly on the market given CWRs seemingly in business/out of business practices.
Like I said, I just wanted to clarify what I felt were some gross misconceptions.
Crispy
06-30-04, 02:50 PM
#57
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (2)
1. All the lines have to be assembled just like how you and I will do with a vise. There is no other way to assemble those lines but pressure testing is the key.
2. When it comes to pressure lines, you never just test it at the operating pressure. You always have to test it at least 2-3 times the operating pressure for safety reasons. A proper assembled -10 AN line with good fitting and hose can handle about 2000 psi. The hydraulic shop was testing it at 1500 psi but then I told them this is not necessary because the operating pressure is at most 200 psi.
4. If the lines replace the OE lines, you have to remove the power steering and A/C compressor bracket in order to get those lines off. I was not saying that you have to remove them permanently. With my kit, I have a special made AN to Metric adapter so you don't have to remove those OE lines. The installation is a lot easier with my kit. A lot of people break their PS pump pulley while trying to get it off. With my kit, you don't have to worry about any of that.
5. I said with that particular oil cooler setup (twin 25 row), ducting is not necessary. The efficiency of the twin 25 row without ducting already surpasses the heat exchange requirement. I did not say for every oil cooler, the ducting is not necessary. Since you have the ducting on your car, maybe you can test out the CWR without the ducting and see what the temp difference is.
6. I don't know if CWR changed the way they mount the thermostat but if you mounted it supported by just a hose fitting, that thing is going to break overtime due to metal fatigue. The thermostat comes with a bracket and if you support the weight of the thermostat with that braket instead of a hose fitting, it should be ok.
Anyway, I came here because someone mentioned my kit on this thread. I have nothing against Duane. Whatever I said about my oil cooler kit are just the facts about my oil cooler kit. They do not necessary mean that the CWR kit does not have some of those features.
Chuck Huang
2. When it comes to pressure lines, you never just test it at the operating pressure. You always have to test it at least 2-3 times the operating pressure for safety reasons. A proper assembled -10 AN line with good fitting and hose can handle about 2000 psi. The hydraulic shop was testing it at 1500 psi but then I told them this is not necessary because the operating pressure is at most 200 psi.
4. If the lines replace the OE lines, you have to remove the power steering and A/C compressor bracket in order to get those lines off. I was not saying that you have to remove them permanently. With my kit, I have a special made AN to Metric adapter so you don't have to remove those OE lines. The installation is a lot easier with my kit. A lot of people break their PS pump pulley while trying to get it off. With my kit, you don't have to worry about any of that.
5. I said with that particular oil cooler setup (twin 25 row), ducting is not necessary. The efficiency of the twin 25 row without ducting already surpasses the heat exchange requirement. I did not say for every oil cooler, the ducting is not necessary. Since you have the ducting on your car, maybe you can test out the CWR without the ducting and see what the temp difference is.
6. I don't know if CWR changed the way they mount the thermostat but if you mounted it supported by just a hose fitting, that thing is going to break overtime due to metal fatigue. The thermostat comes with a bracket and if you support the weight of the thermostat with that braket instead of a hose fitting, it should be ok.
Anyway, I came here because someone mentioned my kit on this thread. I have nothing against Duane. Whatever I said about my oil cooler kit are just the facts about my oil cooler kit. They do not necessary mean that the CWR kit does not have some of those features.
Chuck Huang
Originally posted by CrispyRX7
Some additional clarifications and observations:
1) CWR hoses are also assembled by a shop that fabricates pressure lines. These aren't done in a garage with a bench vise. And given Duanes occupation in the aerospace industy I'd think he has a shop assembling his hoses that works in the same sector he is employed as are most of the other fabricators building his other parts.
2) Pressure testing IMO is a must do, as Chuck noted for liability concerns. Oil lines see max of 160psi so the need for pressure testing to 1000psi is? I would submit oil line failure is due to fatigue failures over time or improper installation niether of which will be eliminated by a preinstall fabrication pressure test.
3) The CWR kits now use upgraded brackets, not the old thin AL brackets. And as Mark noted the cooler is securely fixed in place and supported by the CF duct. Similarly any bracket rigidly mounted to the chassis is subject to fatigue failure from vibration. Note the stock cooler brackets used a rubber isolator. I reused the same bushing on my install. How many people who had bracket failures used an isolator? Or had to bend the supplied bracket to force fit the kit?
4) The CWR kit also does NOT *require* removal of the AC and PS pump to install. This is only done to remove the old unused OE line.
5) The assertion that ducting is unnecessary is, well...preposterous. To not duct cooling air to a cooler defeats the purpose of the cooler and removes a sizeable portion of the efficiency of the cooler. As Chuck noted the REAL reason for RE not providing a duct is the variety of noses many buyers are using. And I say NOT that a duct is unnecessary. Ever see a purpose built race car with unducted coolers? Common sense folks.
6) Failure of the 90degree bend is a weak point of the CWR kit. And a point which I watch like a hawk on my car. However truth be told I've driven my car for over 2 years with the kit and certainly enough track events and I've had nary a single issue. I would doubt any manufacturing defect in the elbow itself which leaves me to believe a marginal design when compounded by a questionable install (sorry folks) may lead to failure. However, as is typical of this board we only hear the bitching and moaning of those who have had problems. Duane, no doubt, has sold in excess of 100 of these kits over 2 dozen of which are on cars that are tracked regularly. I'm not defending him but realistically the percentage of failures is much lower than what most people think.
As always I'd bet a portion of the "failures" are due to ham fisted installs. I've seen crappy installs of this kit from so called reputable shops so I'm not pointing fingers but as someone noted these aren't really reliability mods unless they are installed with due diligence. One has heard the complaint many a time, "I installed this part and my engine blew." Points finger at the last part installed. So really why was there a failure? It's just so simple to point a finger at someone elses apparent failure...isn't it? Given Duanes disappearence the RE kits are the only other real option but I firmly believe that unless fully ducted a large portion of the coolers capacity/efficiency will be wasted. They do perform well no doubt but why? Perhaps because a 36 or 48 row unducted cooler may work just as well as a 28 row ducted cooler...see the logic?
And FWIW I got my CWR IC and duct on time and quickly, I've had no issues to speak of with the CWR oil cooler kit and am not afraid to hammer my car on the track. Last weekend at VIR in 95deg ambient temps with high humidity I saw a peak oil temp of 216F. Think that's high...with the stock R1 coolers I was seeing 250+ and I wasn't even pushing the car as hard back then.
Trying to set the record straight without much of the opinionated (perhaps I'm being hypocritcal here) non-technical testimonials being offered.
Crispy
Some additional clarifications and observations:
1) CWR hoses are also assembled by a shop that fabricates pressure lines. These aren't done in a garage with a bench vise. And given Duanes occupation in the aerospace industy I'd think he has a shop assembling his hoses that works in the same sector he is employed as are most of the other fabricators building his other parts.
2) Pressure testing IMO is a must do, as Chuck noted for liability concerns. Oil lines see max of 160psi so the need for pressure testing to 1000psi is? I would submit oil line failure is due to fatigue failures over time or improper installation niether of which will be eliminated by a preinstall fabrication pressure test.
3) The CWR kits now use upgraded brackets, not the old thin AL brackets. And as Mark noted the cooler is securely fixed in place and supported by the CF duct. Similarly any bracket rigidly mounted to the chassis is subject to fatigue failure from vibration. Note the stock cooler brackets used a rubber isolator. I reused the same bushing on my install. How many people who had bracket failures used an isolator? Or had to bend the supplied bracket to force fit the kit?
4) The CWR kit also does NOT *require* removal of the AC and PS pump to install. This is only done to remove the old unused OE line.
5) The assertion that ducting is unnecessary is, well...preposterous. To not duct cooling air to a cooler defeats the purpose of the cooler and removes a sizeable portion of the efficiency of the cooler. As Chuck noted the REAL reason for RE not providing a duct is the variety of noses many buyers are using. And I say NOT that a duct is unnecessary. Ever see a purpose built race car with unducted coolers? Common sense folks.
6) Failure of the 90degree bend is a weak point of the CWR kit. And a point which I watch like a hawk on my car. However truth be told I've driven my car for over 2 years with the kit and certainly enough track events and I've had nary a single issue. I would doubt any manufacturing defect in the elbow itself which leaves me to believe a marginal design when compounded by a questionable install (sorry folks) may lead to failure. However, as is typical of this board we only hear the bitching and moaning of those who have had problems. Duane, no doubt, has sold in excess of 100 of these kits over 2 dozen of which are on cars that are tracked regularly. I'm not defending him but realistically the percentage of failures is much lower than what most people think.
As always I'd bet a portion of the "failures" are due to ham fisted installs. I've seen crappy installs of this kit from so called reputable shops so I'm not pointing fingers but as someone noted these aren't really reliability mods unless they are installed with due diligence. One has heard the complaint many a time, "I installed this part and my engine blew." Points finger at the last part installed. So really why was there a failure? It's just so simple to point a finger at someone elses apparent failure...isn't it? Given Duanes disappearence the RE kits are the only other real option but I firmly believe that unless fully ducted a large portion of the coolers capacity/efficiency will be wasted. They do perform well no doubt but why? Perhaps because a 36 or 48 row unducted cooler may work just as well as a 28 row ducted cooler...see the logic?
And FWIW I got my CWR IC and duct on time and quickly, I've had no issues to speak of with the CWR oil cooler kit and am not afraid to hammer my car on the track. Last weekend at VIR in 95deg ambient temps with high humidity I saw a peak oil temp of 216F. Think that's high...with the stock R1 coolers I was seeing 250+ and I wasn't even pushing the car as hard back then.
Trying to set the record straight without much of the opinionated (perhaps I'm being hypocritcal here) non-technical testimonials being offered.
Crispy
Last edited by rotaryextreme; 06-30-04 at 03:11 PM.
06-30-04, 02:54 PM
#58
www.silverbulletrx7.com
Originally posted by CrispyRX7
And I've seen some work on some peoples cars that almost made me loose my lunch as they looked me right in the eye and asked me what a great job they did or how awesome their car was.
And I've seen some work on some peoples cars that almost made me loose my lunch as they looked me right in the eye and asked me what a great job they did or how awesome their car was.
Good thoughts but I am and have been concerned with the thermostat failures on the CWC kit. I figure I can probably do something different if I get it but...
dis1
06-30-04, 03:05 PM
#59
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (2)
The prices for my oil cooler kit never changed since I offer them 3 years ago while CWR was still in business. Your monopoly remark does not really apply. I never changed the price. My cost on the oil cooler is fixed and I just charge whatever I think is fair according to my cost. I will not raise the price just because CWR is not in the market any more. It's probably a waste of time to analyze it with a supply and demand curve. Beside that, you can also make your own. 
Chuck Huang
Chuck Huang
Originally posted by CrispyRX7
In any case the point it mute as Chuck is a smart guy and can charge whatever he wants as he currently has a monopoly on the market given CWRs seemingly in business/out of business practices.
In any case the point it mute as Chuck is a smart guy and can charge whatever he wants as he currently has a monopoly on the market given CWRs seemingly in business/out of business practices.
06-30-04, 03:24 PM
#61
Chuck
1) A good shop will have a jig to assemble a hose end which I guess could be loosly interpeted as a vice.
2) Absolutely agree. Any mechancial component should have a safety factory or at least 2-3. 3x 200 is 600lbs.
Testing to 1000psi is good but less may be acceptable also.
4) I retract my previous assertion that the OE line may stay in place with the CWR kit. IIRC there is a hard line to the oil filter tower that must be removed. However I think the exmaple of many folks breaking the PS pulley duting the PS system pump as a perfect example of hamfisted mechanics (sorry Mark) Have the right tool and it's not an issue. Try and pry it off with a screwdriver and yeah it's gonna break.
5) The best I can do is a comparison between the CWR twins and the OE R1 twins running about 215 vs 250+ degF. It's a PITA to remove the ducts and I don't think I'd risk overheating my car to prove point for this venue, apologies.
6) You are absolutely right. Fatigue of that 90 degree elbow is the primary failure point. But the last thing you want to do is rigidly mount the T-stat to the chassis. Engine movement relative to the T-0stat will snap that 90degree elbow the first time you step on the throttle.
Given the options I think what you have put together is a fine kit. Price is a bit high...IMO...and there is a lack of ducting, which you know how I feel about, but is otherwise a very nice setup.
Regards
Crispy
1) A good shop will have a jig to assemble a hose end which I guess could be loosly interpeted as a vice.
2) Absolutely agree. Any mechancial component should have a safety factory or at least 2-3. 3x 200 is 600lbs.
Testing to 1000psi is good but less may be acceptable also.
4) I retract my previous assertion that the OE line may stay in place with the CWR kit. IIRC there is a hard line to the oil filter tower that must be removed. However I think the exmaple of many folks breaking the PS pulley duting the PS system pump as a perfect example of hamfisted mechanics (sorry Mark) Have the right tool and it's not an issue. Try and pry it off with a screwdriver and yeah it's gonna break.
5) The best I can do is a comparison between the CWR twins and the OE R1 twins running about 215 vs 250+ degF. It's a PITA to remove the ducts and I don't think I'd risk overheating my car to prove point for this venue, apologies.
6) You are absolutely right. Fatigue of that 90 degree elbow is the primary failure point. But the last thing you want to do is rigidly mount the T-stat to the chassis. Engine movement relative to the T-0stat will snap that 90degree elbow the first time you step on the throttle.
Given the options I think what you have put together is a fine kit. Price is a bit high...IMO...and there is a lack of ducting, which you know how I feel about, but is otherwise a very nice setup.
Regards
Crispy
06-30-04, 03:27 PM
#62
Super Snuggles
Originally posted by turbojeff
"Given Duane's occupation" he should have never designed those CHEAP aluminum brackets in the first place.
"Given Duane's occupation" he should have never designed those CHEAP aluminum brackets in the first place.
Originally posted by CrispyRX7
Agree on the AL brackets - sloppy and shortsighted. Scrimping on the brackets was not bright. BUT this is no longer an issue so why dwell in the past?
Agree on the AL brackets - sloppy and shortsighted. Scrimping on the brackets was not bright. BUT this is no longer an issue so why dwell in the past?
06-30-04, 04:06 PM
#63
Originally posted by CrispyRX7
Rebuttal Problems?
From my own personal perspective I have NEVER purchased an aftermarket part that I have felt required NO additional work or that fit perfectly. Crispy
Rebuttal
Problems? From my own personal perspective I have NEVER purchased an aftermarket part that I have felt required NO additional work or that fit perfectly. Crispy
.I pretty much don't like much aftermarket stuff due to the fact that it pretty much doesn't work right from the get go, of course I have no options in most cases.
If the oil coolers mounting and lines were designed a little better then the required skill level of the installer decrease dramtically. I design stuff for a living and I can tell you if you make it so it can go on wrong it WILL go on wrong, even in the most skilled hands. Design it so it only fits the right way and the chances for proper installation increases
My point on the brackets is that IF they were designed so poorly then I think that indicates how much effort was put into the rest of the design.
I do agree with some/many of your points though. You can't just slap stuff on and make it work. It is a GREAT idea to have ducts on the coolers.
06-30-04, 04:13 PM
#64
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (2)
4. The stock power steering pulley is really a piece of crap since it's made of plastic. Even with a pulley holder, it can still crack due to how old it is.
6. As for mounting the thermostat on the CWR kit, you need to fab a bracket to hold the thermostat onto the motor so you will not have to worry about engine movement. With my kit, the thermostat is suspended by 4 braided hoses. There is enough slack on those hoses so crack hose fitting will never be an issue. The design of my kit is totally different from the CWR. You can make your CWR oil cooler kit more reliable by relocating the thermostat and not having it supported solely by that 90 degree hose fitting. It's really not a good idea to have it supported just by that hose fitting. First, the fitting might come lose due to the weight of the thermostat. There is constant torque on that fitting to loosen it. Second, the weight of the thermostat might crack it. So if you hit a big bump or you drive on on uneven roads, you might have problems.
Using a oil cooler duct is always a good idea but it's impossible to design one that fits all the bumpers out there. So far, the twin 25 row works fine and sometimes even too effiecient without any ducting. So if you want some ducting, you will need to fab some yourself with some aluminum sheets to suit your bumper. Sorry.
Chuck Huang
6. As for mounting the thermostat on the CWR kit, you need to fab a bracket to hold the thermostat onto the motor so you will not have to worry about engine movement. With my kit, the thermostat is suspended by 4 braided hoses. There is enough slack on those hoses so crack hose fitting will never be an issue. The design of my kit is totally different from the CWR. You can make your CWR oil cooler kit more reliable by relocating the thermostat and not having it supported solely by that 90 degree hose fitting. It's really not a good idea to have it supported just by that hose fitting. First, the fitting might come lose due to the weight of the thermostat. There is constant torque on that fitting to loosen it. Second, the weight of the thermostat might crack it. So if you hit a big bump or you drive on on uneven roads, you might have problems.
Using a oil cooler duct is always a good idea but it's impossible to design one that fits all the bumpers out there. So far, the twin 25 row works fine and sometimes even too effiecient without any ducting. So if you want some ducting, you will need to fab some yourself with some aluminum sheets to suit your bumper. Sorry.
Chuck Huang
Originally posted by CrispyRX7
4) I retract my previous assertion that the OE line may stay in place with the CWR kit. IIRC there is a hard line to the oil filter tower that must be removed. However I think the exmaple of many folks breaking the PS pulley duting the PS system pump as a perfect example of hamfisted mechanics (sorry Mark) Have the right tool and it's not an issue. Try and pry it off with a screwdriver and yeah it's gonna break.
6) You are absolutely right. Fatigue of that 90 degree elbow is the primary failure point. But the last thing you want to do is rigidly mount the T-stat to the chassis. Engine movement relative to the T-0stat will snap that 90degree elbow the first time you step on the throttle.
Given the options I think what you have put together is a fine kit. Price is a bit high...IMO...and there is a lack of ducting, which you know how I feel about, but is otherwise a very nice setup.
Regards
Crispy
4) I retract my previous assertion that the OE line may stay in place with the CWR kit. IIRC there is a hard line to the oil filter tower that must be removed. However I think the exmaple of many folks breaking the PS pulley duting the PS system pump as a perfect example of hamfisted mechanics (sorry Mark) Have the right tool and it's not an issue. Try and pry it off with a screwdriver and yeah it's gonna break.
6) You are absolutely right. Fatigue of that 90 degree elbow is the primary failure point. But the last thing you want to do is rigidly mount the T-stat to the chassis. Engine movement relative to the T-0stat will snap that 90degree elbow the first time you step on the throttle.
Given the options I think what you have put together is a fine kit. Price is a bit high...IMO...and there is a lack of ducting, which you know how I feel about, but is otherwise a very nice setup.
Regards
Crispy
Last edited by rotaryextreme; 06-30-04 at 04:23 PM.
06-30-04, 06:30 PM
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Originally posted by CrispyRX7
4) I retract my previous assertion that the OE line may stay in place with the CWR kit. IIRC there is a hard line to the oil filter tower that must be removed. However I think the exmaple of many folks breaking the PS pulley duting the PS system pump as a perfect example of hamfisted mechanics (sorry Mark) Have the right tool and it's not an issue. Try and pry it off with a screwdriver and yeah it's gonna break.
Crispy
4) I retract my previous assertion that the OE line may stay in place with the CWR kit. IIRC there is a hard line to the oil filter tower that must be removed. However I think the exmaple of many folks breaking the PS pulley duting the PS system pump as a perfect example of hamfisted mechanics (sorry Mark) Have the right tool and it's not an issue. Try and pry it off with a screwdriver and yeah it's gonna break.
Crispy
I attribute the breakage to the 10 ton gorilla that installed the pulley in the first place. It should have come off with only the force of a 1 ton gorilla. Mark
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