Ralgh

Went up to the Speed Ventures event up in Buttonw Willow on Friday. There was super dense fog on the 5 freeway on the way up. It also delayed racing till later in the day. I got out for three good sessions but once the sun fell the fog came back in force.

Headed home after dinner, about a two hour drive, and just 12 stinking miles from my house, 10:00PM an oil line broke and vented all my oil onto the freeway. Fortunately it was near a friends house. I used 5 quarts to drive the two miles from where I originally stopped to get to the house. I had been up since 4:00AM so I wasn't real happy.

I have the Crooked Willow dual oil coolers and the elbow on the line from the engine to thermostat cracked. It is a hard line so there is no flex in it. I am guessing that when I had the oil pan gasket replaced they lifted the engine and since the thermostat couln't move damage was caused.

I can't fault the shop because they didn'y know about the oil cooler kit. Got it fixed the next day in about four hours most of which was running around trying to find the right part. I also spent the better part of an hour mopping up the oil from my buddy's street.

For those who have the Crooked Willow kit it is something to be aware of when having work done on your car. At least my problem didn't happen up in the fog near Bakersfield.

GsrSol

It's good that you noticed the leak before it was too late.

RonKMiller

Sounds like one of those things where **** just happened..........

I always thought if any part of their kit's plumbing would fail it would be the braided hose since Mazduh uses all hard lines on their stock dual oil coolers. I wonder if it could have been some sort of vibration induced stress instead of the engine being lifted?

The good news is you didn't ruin anything expensive.

JaneRX7

how did it come off?

1FooknTiteFD

I know of someone who has the oil cooler kit and had the same thing happen to him on a race track. He was driving around and all of a sudden, oil started to spill from his car. Thank goodness he shut off his car in time or else that could've meant another motor. I've heard about this problem before among others which is why i haven't purchased this kit yet. Too bad there arne't very many alternatives

turbojeff

iTrader: (30)

The R1s lines aren't all hard, they do have rubber sections.

Jeff

RonKMiller

Yeah, no doubt you're right, it's been a long time since I've looked at that setup, I just remember it seemed like Mazda used tubing going places where CR's setup uses braided hose instead. I do know that there are tons of difference in braided hose quality even though they all look pretty much alike from the outside. If they use the good stuff I am sure it will hold up, but the good stuff is REALLY expensive, (alot more than tubing even considering the time spent bending it) and uses special fittings that are not commonly seen in aftermarket stuff.

I guess when you think about it the braided hose would be less prone to problems but ya never know when things start rockin' and rollin'. It sure sounds like a metal fatigue problem somewhere.

maxcooper

Did the fitting actually break or just come loose? The fitting is supposed to swivel to avoid metal fatigue problems. Could it have been replaced with a non-swivel fitting after the oil pan incident? I have been running that kit for 2.5 or 3 years and only once after some service did I have any problems. The fitting at the front cover wasn't tight enough so it started leaking twice until I tightented it down enough. It never leaked before or since.

-Max

artowar2

What is the good stuff? And what price range is it in?

RonKMiller

It's made out of spiral extruded Teflon covered with Series 300 stainless steel braid. It can handle up to about 1500 psi. 1/4 inch id runs about $7 a foot and the fittings run $15 to $30 EACH. You also need special mandrels to install the fittings. Made by Aeroquip.
You can see why Mazda used mandrel bent tubing.

I would imagine CR uses hose for ease of production, routing to the coolers, and shipping, but I can guarantee you they would have to double the cost of the kit to use "the good stuff". It probably is overkill, but if I was building my own and the health of the engine was at stake...............

Flybye

But that's the thing. The goodstuff is rated to 1500psi.

Our oil system will probably never even see anything over 150psi. What's the sense in getting the good stuff if you will NEVER even use it to full capacity?

I've been thinking about making my own large oil cooler kit (what $$$ permits) using these hoses:



Yep. They are slip on and hold up to 250psi. I called Baker's precision, and they told me that plenty of racers use them since steelbraided is usually overkill for an oil system unless the hoses are under the car and directly exposed to possible road debris. The hoses are cheap at about $3 a foot and the fittings about $7 each.

Ralgh

It was a crack a little less than an inch on the bottom part of the bend in the elbow. They didn't do anything to the oil cooler when they did the oil pan. They didn't really know about it so I can't fault them.

I am thinking of putting a small battery in and moving the thermostat up to where the old battery was. That would get a soft line coming from the engine and give the engine the ability to move while the thermostat is fixed.

I don't know, I am bouncing a lot of ideas in my head on how to allow the thermostat and engine to move independant of eachother.

maxpesce

Tom,

Was great meeting you & Chris at the track, - Does Chris know he had the 6th fastest time of the day? and was 4th in the T8 class?

Sorry to hear you had problems on the way home
I am a little unclear, was the part that broke OEM or part of the CWR Kit?

I too just put a smaller battery in, I used a Grp51r, the smallest conventional battery w/ 400+ CCA - I got one of turbojeff's SS Trays an I must say it as beautifully made and fit perfect. You could probably mount the thermostat to it also.

RonKMiller

I would never trust a slip on fitting in that application, especially one rated at only 100 psi above the max expected. Generally speaking, engineering specs for low pressure hoses are a safety factor of 4 or more, so you would need something rated at 600 psi or higher to feel comfortable that it would not fail in use.

There is also another steel braided hose that is less high tech, but would be excellent from a dependablilty standpoint as well as cost, and is actually rated to 3,000 psi. It's Aeroquip 303 and is $3.90 a foot for 1/4 id. The fittings are about $7 each, and are made of cad steel - the best. You still need the special mandrel at $28.00 to install the fittings, but you'll never have a fitting fail.

303 is synthetic rubber, with a synthetic-impregnated wire braid over a single cotton braid and an outer cover of synthetic-impregnated oil-resistant cotton braid. If I was going to build my own - and now I think I will - this is what I would use. Now to find a nice big single cooler..........and a place to mount it. Maybe on the top of the car!

Steel braid is recommended where chafing is an issue, it (or any hose) should never be exposed to debris. There is such a thing as armored hose, but the cost is stratospheric.

maxpesce

Ron you are appling the safety factor Backwords - If a hose is RATED for 250 psi WORKING pressure and it has a SAFETY FACTOR of 4 then its ULTIMATE strength is at least 1000psi, a hose w/ 250psi working pressure is way more than adequate for the fd3s's oil system (120psi max pressure). However you are correct in assuming that for an fd3s's oil system you would want a hose w/ an ULTIMATE BURST rating in excess of 480psi (120psi x 4safety factor) However MOST all Hose and Pipe is specified & labled with it's Working Pressure.

I do agree that I too would never trust a purely push in fitting and would add clamps to the fittings on that Baker Prescision Hose

RonKMiller

Ummmm. Ok. We're talking about the same thing.

The only problem with regular hose clamps is that they tend to "chew" the hose - any hose - over time from expansion and contraction.

There are lined clamps, which have an inner steel band that protects the hose from the worm drive slots, and that would be a great choice to keep those suckers on since the heat cycling range is pretty narrow.

As usual they cost about 3X what garden variety clamps cost, and you might as well make them stainless steel while you're at it.

I looked at the CW kits, and they use anodized fittings instead of steel. Flashy, but I prefer steel over aluminum for bullet proof fittings.

Maybe if I mount that oil cooler under the rear wing.........

Ralgh

It was the elbow from the engine to the thermostat in the Crooked Willow kit. It was broken where there would be tension when they lifted the engine. That is why we suspect that is the reason for the failure.

It wasn't too far from Chris' house so he brought me some oil and we got it to another friends house that was even closer. I coasted down the hills but had to start it to get all the way there. You can see the thick trail of oil that starts where I started the engine and leads to where I parked it. I am just super glad it didn't happen up in the fog. That would have sucked.

Ralgh

Oh yeah I spent two and a half days fixing (that was the easy part) and cleaning the car. Now it looks better than any other time since I have owned it. I was surprised to see only a single oil drop from the underside. I figured it would be impossible to get all if not most of it off.

maxpesce

Even worse would have been if it had let go on the track!
I am getting a used CWR kit and will have to make sure that part is in good shape!

Flybye

Hey, I had my doubts, too! I asked the rep at Baker's "How the hell can a slip on application withstand that much pressure, and would vibration eventually make them slip off?"

He assured me that a good number of people with strictly race cars have been using them with success, and is perfect so as long as the hose is NOT subjected to the elements.

Remember that our stock oil lines, although are not slipon, they aren't steel braided. Have you ever heard of someone BURSTING a stock oil line?

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Holy ****.....my good friend Alex had one of his Crooked Willow Oil Coiler lines break last week! I'll find out the details from him. Hopefully this is just coincidence and not a common problem.

RonKMiller

Yeah, I'm sure the Baker stuff is adequate. But I think it's WAY overpriced.

You can get a FREE (that's right, free!) catalogue from
www.aircraftspruce.com that has all kinds of goodies in it that are major upgrades in quality. It's called
"Performance Racing Products" and just came out last month.

I am probably going to adapt an aviation oil cooler for my needs and toss the stock one. The stocker is kind of a joke, just like the intercooler - woefully inadequate for climates like yours and mine (Tucson) in the summer. With a high performance single hopefuly I can retain the stock location so I don't have to mess with additional lines, fittings, brackets, etc. They have some excellent quality units on their site.

Did I mention the catalogue is FREE?

RonKMiller

The plot thickens.

Report back here, CAPTAIN.

DamonB

Baker Precision has a whole line of clamps that have the threads crimped into the strap rather than punched, this keeps them from chewing the hose. I am using them on my intercooler couplers with wonderful success and they are much more affordable than the band or marman type clamps.


From the website:

The type 304 stainless steel clamps carry a LIFETIME Warranty. Formed from a tube, the worm housing increases the strength of the hose clamp by 30%. The radius of each housing is adapted to the hose diameter.

The rolled -up band edges prevent it from cutting into the tube. The stamped threads leave the inside of the clamp smooth and eliminate friction between the hose and the band thus the clamp will seal completely over 360 degrees. Thread engagement gives strength and reliability thus the square threads of the screw are rolled and those on the band stamped. The 6º thread pitch angle results in a vibration resistant hose clamp.

artowar2

I picked up a CW kit from a Forum member (not Fritz Flynn). The fittings, and I assume the braided lines, are made by XRP. I've only seen this brand carried by Porterfield Enterprises in Costa Mesa, though admittedly, I didn't spend much time looking for other sources.

The Aeroquip and Earl's products seem to be carried by most of the decent size mailorder racing supply shops. FWIW, aside from airplane guru Ron here, Carroll Smith (see his "Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook") also likes Aeroquip, though he says his personal favorite brand is Earl's.

Do yourself a favor and take Ron's tip on the Aircraft Spruce catalog. They've got a lot of nice stuff in there...