Anyone knows which are the correct rivets that mount the VIN plate?

 

That is a good question! However, there are legal implications about replacing the rivets on a VIN tag. What is your country & local laws regarding VIN tag repair or rivet replacement? In the US, this is typically a big deal because any tampering of the VIN tag could indicate the car was stolen. Each state has different laws about this as well. Have you searched for "VIN tag rivets" on google or other search engine? If you replace the rivets on the VIN tag then you may be required to re-title the car as a "Salvage" title. That has the potential to affect the value of your FD.

Cheers,
George

 

^ Thanks for your reply George.

Thankfully I do not live in the US, with its weird (to say the least) laws. Here it is not a problem to replace the rivets as long as you have all the appropriate documents (title, import certificate, auction sheet, deregistration certificate from Japan, etc). Yes I tried google, but I couldn't find something useful that would be particular to the FDs.

 

Carpe Diem,

Not a problem. You may find this thread from the Miata forum more helpful. Miata Forum - VIN Rivet Question. Post #8 identifies a potential replacement or you may find the proper size locally.

Hope this helps and good luck!

Cheers,
George

 

 

^ Obviously you got me wrong. Changing or altering vin tags is by no means allowed. Anyone who does that can receive strict punishment. However, to the best of my knowledge there is no prohibition to take out the vin tag and then put it back again. (I am not a lawyer, so I may be as well wrong).

 

Also, the police can anytime check the vin number on the tag against the title deed of the car and against the vin number on the chassis.

 

 

An old VIN tag with new rivets might be as much (or more) of a red flag as no VIN at all.

I mean if I were a cop or potential buyer and was looking for that sort of thing.

 

 

Carpe Diem, et al:

The argument about VIN tag repair is an old conversation. Such an argument extends into classic, vintage, or historical car restorations to include frame-off rebuilds. If my original dash was damaged then it would be logical to install the original VIN tag on the replacement dash so that it matches the chassis. It is physically not difficult to replace the rivets. There may be some provisions to effect a repair to the VIN tag area and that would require research. Again, such an argument boils down to federal, state, and local laws regarding the vehicle's legal status. That may impact the vehicle's title and/or resale value.

I suspect that when such a question is asked there is an uninformed reply of "No" with little references to back it up. Should someone get that emphatic "No", it would be prudent to ask for the reference or multiple references. Two side notes. First, when I researched Carpe Diem's original question I ran across the CFR regulation concerning VINs. That inspired me to make a calculator; link here if interested: VIN Calculator. Second, I once had a Postal Clerk claim that I was unable to mail a restricted item. I did my research before hand and provided the references from their manuals. The short of that story was that I was able to mail that item and that I did not blindly accept the clerk's legal/expert authority without additional proof.

It sounds like Carpe Diem has done his homework and more importantly will document this repair according to his country's laws. I would argue for such a repair can be made in the US so long as justification and documentation for the repair was made. IMHO, we should look at this question from 2 perspectives: first, how do authorities protect one's vehicle from theft or forgery? Or, what safeguards are in place to assure a consumer that a vehicle is legit? Second, how should a consumer repair a vehicle? There are thousands of ways a vehicle can be damaged. Must a vehicle be scrapped because a specific area on the dash was repaired? Where should the middle of the road be in that argument?

What do you guys believe? Would YOU buy the next FD with a repaired VIN tag?

Cheers,
George

 

I believe I would not. I don't feel the need to do research or produce references either. I'd see it as a red flag, and I'd look for the other numbers on the car to make sure they all match. The dash tag is not the only VIN on the car. If they do match then maybe the dash was replaced and it had better look like a new dash. If they don't match, then I'd find another car because not only could that one be salvaged, but it could very well be stolen.

EDIT: Not talking about you Carpe. I just mean if I was looking at a car I saw on Craigslist or something. From the looks of your signature, you treat your FD well, it's a rare one and I'll bet the dash is being replaced.

 

I wasn't aware that this was an old argument. It's been a couple decades or more, but I've done more than a few search warrant on shops dealing with just this issue. Gen's argument is valid if you're talking about older vehicles.
Speaking for my own state's statutes, if the car is old enough (can't recall the cut-off year off-hand, and too lazy to look it up) one can get an "assigned VIN" from the state and the title has to be appropriately re-issued. Newer cars, including our FD's, would typically NOT qualify. Removing the VIN tags on our cars would be a no no. Off-hand, I can't think of any legitimate reason to do so.

 

Sgtblue,

Yes, car restoration shops (like those featured on TV, like Fantomworks, Chasing Classic Cars, etc...) would have more knowledge about this topic and could tell a few stories about it too. Similar to your state, Virginia has a form to apply for a DMV issued VIN plate. I did not see any restrictions on any model year. I also did a brief search for my state's laws governing VINs. The statutes in my state are near the Code number sequence from the CFR. I'll provide links below. I would presume the other states would have similar regulations that fall within this general range of Code number sequences.

Carpe Diem,

I hope that we are not side tracking the main topic of your thread. My intent is not to hijack it. Perhaps others may find our dialog helpful?

et al,

I don't think it's necessary to post each state's regulations, at least not in this thread. For those who may be interested, try a search for "[state] law about VIN" in your favorite search engine. These references apply to vehicles in the US and will vary dependent upon each state. As an example, the codes for Virginia follow the federal one:

Code of Federal Regulations, Title 49 Transportation, Part 565 Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) Requirements: Title 49 Part 565
Virginia Code, Title 46.2, Chapter 10, Motor Vehicle and Equipment Safety: Title 46.2 Chapter 10 Main
Virginia Code, Title 46.2, Chapter 10, Section 1072 Operation of vehicle without serial or identification number... : Title 46.2 Section 1072
Virginia Code, Title 46.2, Chapter 10, Section 1073 Engine or serial number illegible, removed, or obliterated: Title 46.2 Section 1073
Virginia Code, Title 46.2, Chapter 10, Section 1074 Removing or altering serial or identification numbers... : Title 46.2 Section 1074

Cheers,
George

 

First of all, no one mentioned that the question referred to my car! Lol

Second, I consider it insulting to compare Cyprus with Nigeria (no offense to Nigeria, I have no idea what is going on there). Cyprus is a fully integrated member of the European Union, its legal system is similar to the UK's one (being a British colony for many years), rules are strictly applied (even high rank government officials served in jail when they deemed guilty of wrong doing), and we even have a Nobel prize winner!

The reason of the tag removal is way more simple than you could think, the guy just wanted to do detail work on it (remove scratches etc). I can’t see why that would be a red flag, once the numbers on the VIN plate match the numbers on the chassis and on all Legal documents, and provided this is allowed by the local law.


Thanks to all for your input, and particularly to Gen2n3 whose responses were detailed, thorough and based on facts, rather than hearsay or superstitions. Laws are laws, and should be respected at all times. However, just because someone said something is prohibited, doesn’t mean the law also says so (see for example the item that Gen2n3 tried to ship).

 

Carpe Diem,

First, let me say, "thank you" for the compliments about providing references and detailing replies. I hope that my answers were useful to your questions.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I don't believe the comparison of Cyprus to Nigeria was meant to offend you or anyone. The "Nigerian Prince email" is an identity theft scam mostly targeted towards gullible Americans. When such an email appeared in one's Inbox it would rouse suspicion to its legitimacy. Perhaps you have seen a similar email scam? I believe the point to that original remark was aimed at the legitimacy of a VIN tag with new/incorrect rivets when compared to a VIN tag with original rivets.

May I be topical here? Carpe, thanks for further explaining the reason to your original question. In my state, if I was to perform a restoration of the VIN Tag that included its removal from the vehicle then that would be considered an alteration. Even if the tag was reinstalled with the proper rivets and looks factory new then that would be a felony based upon my state laws. There is an accommodation in these regulations. First, I could apply for a state issued VIN tag, which would cost a fee (to deter theft). Afterwards, I may attach it to the car with any rivets and the title would reflect that change. Second, I could request permission from the state motor vehicle agency to perform that restoration or simply remove then reinstall the original VIN tag. I would only speculate as to the success rate of the second approach so I shall refrain. However, what is the worst that could happen? Someone say, "no"?

Lastly, I wish to point out that others may respond with different outcomes because the laws regarding VINs vary from state to state and each set of circumstances are different. My research has shown that the federal regulations on VINs do not establish any punitive measures for non-compliance. The responsibility to punish violators rests with each state in such circumstances. Sometimes, a simple question has a complex answer.

Again, thank you for the compliments! It looks like you did a lot of research before asking the rivet question. Please let us know how the restoration works out!

Cheers,
George