fritts

iTrader: (5)

Had an incident while cleaning up a water injection tune on my car. Cracked the front plate at the turbo oil feed fitting and then across the dowel. Tore the engine apart and found little damage except for a tight apex seal in the front rotor. Currently running around 17-18.5 psi with water injection coming on at 12 psi. Ignition is a 4 ING-1A inductive coil setup. AFR's are steady at 10.8 with timing around 10 deg at 18 psi. I had been leaning the car out from even richer mixtures as I had some high end break up. My first thought before tearing the engine down was that it was a combination of me possibly tightening the turbo oil feed fitting down too tight. But now I'm assuming I had a rich misfire that caused the problem due to the tight apex seal. Any thoughts?

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

That's pretty damn uncommon for FDs.

I've been running as high as 20 psi on pump gas recently with my Aquamist 1S system with zero problems. Not that rich though.

What spark plugs are you running? Torque on your tension bolts?

fritts

iTrader: (5)

Yeah, that's why I'm wondering if I'm missing something. I rebuilt the engine less than a year ago has around 2k miles on it with many of runs up to 20 psi on E85. All factory torque procedures were followed. This winter though switched over turbos and to water injection. BE10EGV's are in all the holes. Almost wondering if it could have been a water lock-up. Running 2 nozzles, one pre turbo (M5 315 ml/min) the other post IC(M7 441 ml/min) from alcohol injection systems. Maybe there is such a thing as too much bug juice?

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

I'm running the 1.0 nozzle which equates to 325 cc/min. It's located in the Greddy elbow. You may be using too much, my current setup seems to work very well. Injects a fixed amount after 10 psi.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

What was the trailing timing/split? I see you are running a Haltech. Are you sure you weren't having a crank trigger problem? That does happen on Haltechs.

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

Cracking the front iron is much more common with Haltech cars. I have seen it many times, more prevelent in FCs, simply because there are more Haltechs installed in FCs then FDs. Dowl pin landing diameter plays a roll, but I have seen it in updated S5 engines with the larger landing as well as FDs. Also seen it happen at pressures as low as 16psi

There are also many threads with Haltech cars cracking the irons repeatedly.

It virtually never happens with Power FC controlled engines. We have taken the S4 TII engines up to 24+psi with AI and the PFC, with no cracked irons.

I my opinion (stress this) this is a Haltech ignition issue, not an AI issue

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

^^We deal mainly with FDs w/ Power FCs. I was aware that it's more prevalent with FCs/2nd Gens.... Based on the above, i'll bet it's the Haltech. Not fun.

fritts

iTrader: (5)

Yes, its a Haltech Sport 1000. Beyond the standard setup a long time ago and a recent firmware issue I haven't had any real problems, just for fun I did verify timing before these runs. Splits wise I'm running 12 deg in the higher pressure ranges. I guess I haven't seen or really heard of the issues your talk about Chris but I'll do some searches to see what I come up with. Again this engine has had many WOT runs on it without issue on the Haltech system. I still think a rich misfire (as I was having this problem earlier) could be a real root cause though.

Thinking about this some more the apex seals (RA SS) did not break and I just had pinched one on the front with the broken plate, would there be a different expected outcome if this was actually detonation verses a water lock up or misfire. I just have a very difficult time assuming a Haltech ignition issue especially at high RPM as this is not where a variable reluctor trigger setup normally has a problem.

fritts

iTrader: (5)

Then another issue that I just noticed the water injection system I'm using has a 200 psi pump now verses a lower pressure one they used to sell. I'm using the 200 psi one. The nozzles I believe are rated based off of 100 psi, which means the M5 and M7 were actually flowing about 141 % more based on the pressure flow calculations.

Claudio RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Hey Ryan, sorry to hear about your recent engine misshap, i would like to offer at least some vote of confidence about Haltechs and trigger issues, i have been working with them for a long time, used the ancient DOS stuff, HalwinX/Halwin stuff, and now ECU Manager, and i can honestly say that in the majority of situations where we see "trigger issues" its almost always an initial configuration issue or improper wiring somewhere. There is a large miss conception out there that Haltechs have unreliable triggers inputs, this in reality just miss guided info from people's lack of proper setup on their systems, or some other variable that influenced what ever problems they had.

I can safely say that now with the new Platinum series of ECUs the trigger input conditioning that's available is far better than ever before, but with all new hardware/software/options. You always get people trying to do things the way they're used to, not knowing how to go about properly dialing in their new setups. I can include my self in that group, since in the past i did things one way with one system and as a new one came along you tend to keep doing the same things without knowing the changes that have been incorporated and running into trouble.

I have never met an engine that i couldnt get the triggering down perfect, unless, and it does happen, you run into a setup which has issues with sensors, wiring, or other components causing interference with the signals. Quite recently i worked on a car with trigger problems, an FD, where you could clean it up down low and it would crap out on top, or clean it up top and crap out down low, we scope the signals coming from the crank sensors, and low and behold there was a 13th spike like an extra tooth in the main trigger signal, in the end it turned out to be a dent in the trigger wheel that was registering like an extra tooth, swapped wheels, problem solved. System was a Sport 1000, ran perfect after that.

So, my point is, and pardon the rant, you can never be sure where the problem lies if you dont thoroughly go through absolutely everything, and having the right tools, and patience will also help a great deal. I know most people dont need one, but an oscilloscope is very important in determining what characteristics the trigger sensors have going into the ECU and will give you valuable information on how to properly set the condition up so that the ECU will flawlessly interpret them. Also, you gotta remember, a Haltech is a universal system, designed to cope with as many engine types as possible, you are bound to run into engines that will prove more complicated or problematic than others, you just cant have everything in one system, oh wait! you can, yes, get a Magnetti Marelli or a Bosch Motorsports, $10k+ worth pieces of equipment. The flip side is, a PFC is designed for a specific vehicle, just like the OEM ECU, its meant to run THAT and THAT ONLY, so you fit it with as much hardware as possible so that it can run THAT perfectly all the time.

Going back to the original post discussion, you may be onto something there Ryan, with the pump pressure and nozzle size, after all they are directly proportional with each other, its like bumping up fuel pressure at the regulator, injector flow increases.

Hope you get it solved.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

What type of turbo and porting? What octane fuel?

fritts

iTrader: (5)

6265 large street port 93 octane. Nothing that would be pushing it at the pressure. Same motor push 18-19 psi on 93 alone with more timing.