the apexi pfc is the lowest end unit you should use with a setup like this.

the piggy back units are fine for exhaust and a dp..ya know...that kinda thing...but its way too low resolution to get proper fuel tuning (8x8..5x5 usable tuning cels...where the pfc is 20x20 plus the base map)...which the pfc barely gets...the heltech is more tunable...higher res..and the motec is top o da line.

think of it like an equalizer on your stereo....if you only have three buttons to move up and down you cant tune for ****...but if you have fifteen buttons you can fine tune to a much higher degree. with totally different turbos like these or the m2 set you have no choice but to tune with decent equipment.

remapped ecus...the pettit..m2 etc...they just wont do it.

the pms is the next step up from stock...but Id say that 450hp is about five steps up...not two...if ya know what Im sayin


j

 

btw...get the commander...it is very helpful...even with the datalogit.

trust me...that way you can tune it yourself while you are driving around on a wideband...and the extra set of readings you get off the commander to compare against your guages are VERY helpful when tuning and such.

you will want all possible tools when you are tuning a machine that is over 400 hp.

trust me...getting close to 400 rwhp took every single tool i had at my disposal...I used both the datalogit and the commander at times in order to tune with the turbo upgrade.

THESE KIND OF MODIFICATIONS are not easy...you dont just slap on the turbos and go...you really need to have every single mod in the right order...you need all available tools and readings and you need to be patient.

it took me months to get it all together and tuned...its not just an easy bolt and go like the beginning mods.

the deeper you go...the closer the fuse is to the dynomite. the more careful and patient and aware you need to be....and the more tools you will need to keep it from blowing up in your face.

keep this in mind if you are wanting to do an upgrade like this and have not ventured too deep in the modification process.

good luck all.


jason

 

what time are you guys going to dynolab tom? i am going to be getting the upgraded twins in a month or so and live in marietta. i would like to see what they can do on the dyno!

 

now if i had to bet...thinking about this more...Id bet that those two large twins spoolup time would be similar to a medium-large single turbo.

if that is the case then seq will be the way to go.

Id bet that the dyno sheet will compare well to a single but can be had at a much lower cost too.

but for me...tis all about where and when the power comes on. I prefer to drive on the street...not only on the trackola.

j

 

good advice jason... and if i understood what you meant by "those two large twins spoolup time would be similar to a medium-large single turbo" Brian said earlier in the thread that these come on VERY quickly, so quick that it's not necessary to run seq.? i could be wrong, i havn't slept in a while. anticipation for Christmas was nothing like waiting for more dyno numbers...

 

Hey Barry,

Ihor is picking me up any minute in his silver diablo-killing beast; we're going to be spending the day with Mr. Barninger. I'm going to take a peak at your turbos if they're still off the car. Hell, maybe he'll be tuning today. I'll keep ya posted

 

Well, I was going to get a boost gauge, downpipe, and new sparkplugs, but I think I'll just get the Top Secrets instead. I mean, if I wire my wastegate open and run 3.42 psi, the stock ECU can handle it, right? Guys, right? Hello?

 

I'm with artguy:
One man's "quick spooling" is another's "unnacceptable lag". I've heard plenty of T-78 owners say "it spools quickly... at 5000 rpm"

Thats not quick enough for me. I want quick enough to mimick the instant delivery of a V8 as closely as possible.

467 rwhp is an amazing acheivment... but if i could run even 400-420 with a high flow cat and airpump, running sequentially with these turbos... i'd be real happy, and wouldn't have to play catch-up on rolling highway races.

Is there any specific reason they WOULDN"T work well sequentially?

Checkin' the forum every 5 mins for those dynos! :-)

 

lol...me too.

ptr..you said it better than i did....nice.

btw..rich....Im going to run you over someday.


j

 

He's still in Atlanta so he should have some numbers by this afternoon. He'll post them as soon as he has them I'm sure. He's more than willing to share what he has and learns with everyone. Some guys aren't like that, but Bryan and Stephen are.

If you refer back to some of the original posts Jason and ptrhahn, you would see that Stephen was getting 10psi by 3k and full boost shortly after which is almost the same spoolup as stock seq turbos. Granted I used to get 10psi by 2500rpms but you really shouldn't be getting into that hard at that low an rpm anyway. I have the Stage 2 turbos running non-seq W/O the secret juice and I get 10psi by 3500 and full boost in the 4-4250 range. Again, running no solenoids and a full-manual boost controller. So the good stuff does make a considerable difference in spool-up time.

You may find spoolup by 4500 unacceptable, but I've learned to drive the car where you'd never know it. If you're accustomed to lugging the car around at 2krpms then you'd probably be miserable. But for people who keep the rpms where they should be, it's not an issue. I take it you've never ridden a modern sportbike.

No, there is no reason they shouldn't work well seq, but the whole point is to reduce the added heat and complexity of the seq system while retaining almost stock spoolup characteristics. Why would you want to run them seq if you can run them non-seq and have the same near-instant boost you originally had??

 

No arguement from me, it would be great if these spooled quickly enough in parralel... i'm not trying to spark a parralel vs. seqential arguement i'm just remaining a neensy bit apprehensive till i see more data:

What i do know (and have said before):
Even with my stinky 320 rwhp (stock sequential twins, streetport, all bolt-ons), if I loose rolling street races, its usually not because I get "pulled" on... with cars such as modded C5s/Z06s its in the initial split second or two when we both step on it, they jump a car length or so, then i either run even or gain...

but i'd love to overcome that initial disadvantage.... AND gain some top-end!

Either way these are an exciting prospect... hard to believe new things are still being developed for out 10-year old cars!

 

How are you getting behind in a rolling start race? You must be lugging around too high a gear. If you're going to get on it you need to be above 4500rpms anyway. You would NEVER start a rolling race from anything less than that especially running seq.

 

Hell, I screw around much more with the datalogit! The commander is so awkward to use it acts like a deterrant

 

The commander isn't just for tuning... its very useful to display the temps and such as well as change boost settings.

 

lost time...Im getting 16lbs by 2800rpms on my m2 set.

now imagine the difference that would make vs your car if you are living and driving in a city.

your car must be a blast to drive on the open roads...but full boost by 4500 is a long time to wait if you ask me.

Ive run my m2 set non seq (extreme poormans)...i had 16lbs by 3800 and didnt enjoy driving it around town. (though the non seq friends of mine were telling me to go full non seq and get another 500 rpms out of there). i didnt agree. ...though holy ****..when full boost hit during non seq my tires would roast and roast and roast..lol...it was a different beast entirely.

I had ten lbs quickly...but as anyone who has upgraded turbos will tell ya...they are not in their efficiency range til they hit fifteen lbs or so. I prefer to get them there as soon as i can.

Im very interested in seeing how early the new secret weapons spool up. their big numbers are amazing if they are true...which i think they are...Im just curious as to what rpm I would have usable power if i went with them in the future.

Im rooting for them...whats good for your cars...is good for mine too right?


j

 

Yeah, I think the commander is worth getting but I don't use it too much.

If you already have a boost controller and lots of gauges and a datalogit, the commander becomes more of a backup. I check it only when I'm not datalogging which isn't often...

 

For those who autoX, it does not really matter what the peak power is. I want to come out of that corner as hard as I can. Only way to do that is have boost ASAP. I have raced with my both sequential and poor mans non-sequential. Yes it easier to drive with the non-sequential setup, however never again will I listen to anybody about really not loosing any bottom end. I am one of those people who listen to what people say, however must confirm for myself. Never, ever, ever go non-sequential if you plan on autocrossing. If you do and you race against me you will lose.

 

I would expect these turbos to spool just as quickly as factory when run non-seq. You have to realize that two turbos will spool considerably faster than one bigger turbo.

The main disadvantage i see to running them seq is you cuold be robbing yourself of useful power until 4500rpm. yet..IF there is a way to make the 2ndary turbo spool in at say...3500-4000rpm, that would be cool!

Danny

 

it will be interesting to see if a shaft bearing turbo set with larger than stock wheels can indeed spool as quick as the smaller stock units. bryan is a miracle worker if so.

spank...i counldnt agree with you more...autox or around time and seq will spank the hell out of a non seq car...especially if the seq car has ball bearing twins ....you should check out the m2 turbos...Im tellin ya..you want to get your power now....that is the set to have for that.

granted this set from bnr will make more high end and high total power in the long run.

i guess it just depends on how you drive.


j

 

My car will be raced this year with current turbos. Next year I will upgrade to whatever are the best. However everyone must realize, that us racers want to come out of the hole as hard as possible. Running sequential is still better than a blast all at once. Look at it this way, which would you prefer: Your coming out of a corner, on the throttle hard, as you are exiting the boost keeps building, by the time you are straight you are now max boost, max power and hauling ***. Great controlled run and corner. Now lets compare to this, you are coming out of a corner and on the throttle hard, and oh **** your back is spinning and now you lost your run. It is better to be at full boost and get the most power to the ground you can without spinning. A good sequential system will always do that.

Yes we want power, and we want it now, however remember in the autox sport, we can only take so much right now.

For all you autoxers you will probably agree with my above statements. For all the guys that don't autox they will always argue. Thats ok, because they are fun to beat at the track.
Just my 2cents

 

If 500 RPM of spool-time is that big of an issue, buy nitrous, and custom-jet it for a 25-50 shot

I will definately be purchasing a set come spring guys. I appreciate all of the feedback. I'm still waiting to eyeball these sure-to-be insane dyno graphs...

 

Spank, how low does your RPM go during a run? I'm guessing that once you launch, you're running non-seq for the remainder. If not, I think you'd spin occasionally from the spike at transition...

Everyone: I've included a spreadsheet with torque info, etc. to play with. If you want to fiddle with anything, just change the blue cells. I'm open to feedback since no one's seen this before.

Adam

 

Great spread sheet Adam. That is probably the best work I have ever seen for gearing, HP, TQ, SP. Thank you for giving that to us. Once I get my car dynoed then I can plug in my numbers vs yours. Thanks again for the sheets. I know they required a lot of work on your part.

How low does my RPM go during a run? Well when I launch I am spooled up and spinning off the line. A little more difficult with Hoosiers than Kumoh's. However my problem comes in slow corners. I can shift down and lose time in the shift back from 2 to 3rd. However I come out of the hole great. However as you know the general rule of thumb for autoxing, when you want to shift to 1st don't. So if I stay in 2nd, yes I save the shift time however my spool up time is slow.

I anticipate that by running 4.77 with 350 or more at the wheel this year, my gears will only be 2nd and 3rd as they should be. With the gears I will be higher in the RPM range so I will have more power and can come out of the hole quicker. The goal is to come out as fast as possible without spinning.

 

Dave at KDR just emailed me and said my car was finished. The turbos are installed but I don't think he tuned it yet. Should know more by early next week. Rich..did you get to see the turbos before they went in?? Some parts of me wishes I would have had Dave send the turbos back to Bryan to upgrade to the secret weapons but I'm selling the car and that would be a hassle. Dyno numbers sooooon....

Non-seq is not for everyone. I ran non-seq with stock turbos for a year and with the BNRs for a month or 2. The power delivery is just different. Non-seq is definitely simple and easier to work with - that's for sure. As far as racing goes, non-seq will give you a little advantage between 4K and 6K rpms - but not much. Sequential is a lot more fun to drive in all areas. I've always liked peppy throttle response - not waiting for power. With these secret weapons, they will spool just as fast as the M2s - Stephen had a full 17 psi by 3900-4000 rpms (non-seq) - Jason said his M2s hit 16 psi by 3800 rpms (non-seq) - seems they spool the same - should be the same sequentially also. The carbon seal ones like Lost Time and I have will be slower spooling but put out some sick power.

 

I auto-x, and yeah we need the power coming out of the hole. There are those times when the corner is tight and you HAVE to slow down on the exit the car just putters away without a lot of power until the boost gets there. It might seem fast to a Honda driver, but the competition has V8 torque. One ride in a Z06 will let you know that the FD has a power disadvantage coming out of the corners.

Everyone that thinks non-seq would work well for auto-xing, I'd love to see them bring it to an auto-x and compete against the C5 and other seq FDs in my club.

Jeff