Its funny, I said it about 6 months ago and I will say it again;
This is like the umpteenth post about upgraded twins(M2 or BNR) that has been started and led to nowhere fast. Why do you all start these threads then either cant show proof of what you actually did or you always have some other problem with your car? Someone needs to be quiet about what they do, do it w/ a proper running car and then post. Doesnt seem too hard. Heck, I am thinking(well maybe) of just buying some upgraded twins and doing a dyno just to post a legit post w/ legit results.
I dont really want to doubt anyone(and have been interested in the BNRs for awhile) but, this latest post was started about the awesomeness of the bnrs and 316 posts later, NOTHING.
Just like the last posts for the M2's. Whole lot of posts and still NOTHING.
I think it is a conspiracy to make me buy upgraded twins to actually post some numbers. I dont even want them(ya, right) but I would love to quell all the useless posts. Or maybe, If I buy upgraded twins and post that I did here, then magically, my car will have numerous problems and I cant acheive full power because my oil dipstick broke and shot oil out the dipstick hole and onto the dyno, skewing the numbers and it will take me a 1/2 year to fix it.
Not trying to make anyone feel bad(it all costs money) but, DONT POST UNLESS YOU HAVE SOMETHING WORTHWHILE TO POST.

Thanks,
Steve

 

 

Maybe you should go and read Stephen's post right before yours--I'm assuming you didn't read that one before posting this. I strongly disagree with you when you say that this thread and all these posts have been useless. I'm active duty army and can only work on the car on the weekend; my motor will be together and the car will be up and running by sunday, with dyno results soon after a short break-in period. BE PATIENT .

 

Steve, while I understand where you are coming from I feel my and others posts have been worthwhiled.
My car was/is running so strong I had no reason to believe that a seal was cracked and I had low compression in both rotors.
It takes a lot of time and money to get any truly useful information on how your car is really performing. What have you done to your car? How many times have you been on the dyno? Do you have any plots to share?
And please, by all means, get some upgrades twins and show us all how it's done. It would save me and others alot of money. And bare in mind, if you think you are frustrated by all this, just think how those of us who are spending all the time and money feel.

 

obviously steveil has not tried to hit the 400hp level. tis not as easy as one might think.

these threads do have a lot of useful insights in them. the m2 thread has info on the turbos..info on the needed mods...notes on what kind of experiences the owners have had with the cars while modifying...same goes for the bnr stuff...what you are seeing is that it is not easy to get it done...there are a couple (gregs m2 car which posted decent numbers but are not as high as they could be simply because of the lower boost he wants to run"...etc...

now when you try heavily modifying your car like that then you can come in bitching.

one of the things that resulted from the m2 threads was the mass realization that xs and srmotorsports can not accurately tune ecus by mail...kdr has stopped doing it...and i dont think xs does many of those now. rich and the others can attest to this.

the wideband tuning info that i have come by has been shared on the other forums and a lot has been learned. I have maps up for people to see etc..

there are other things that have resulted from those threads and the related threads that have gone up in results to this modding. insights that may help other people.


..but patience will pay off. my car is close...ive moved to boston and as soon as it is shipped out here i will get it dynoed.


like a whiney kid before xmas...lol

patience


j

 

holy crap i just sorted through 14 pages of posts and NO dyno results , thats pretty crazy.

 

In response:

1. Sure I can post my sheets.
2. My can was pulled 20 times on a 95 F day with 88% humidity.
3. Heatsoak happened for several reasons:
a) Lean means power (rich means safe) with the right timing. However that translates into heat. i.e. oxy-acetylene torch: take out fuel and add oxygen and its hot enough to cut.
b) searching for power takes time adding/taking out timing, fuel, etc. All that time under power is bad because the cast iron manifold is not designed to flow efficiently therefore massive heat is developed with no way to dissipate it. Heat energy is good for the turbines but when backpressure as high as 10 to 1 (or more) develops (even on aftermarket twins!) it’s got nowhere to go but the engine. Heat is at the root of detonation. If you wanna think why cast iron manifolds are bad for what you’re trying to do just think back to all those old iron radiators that you see in old houses and buildings. Key word being “radiate”.
4. Yes my fans were on (set for 85C): and my mods were the following:
fluidyne radiator, m2 large ic., ic fan, hks ignition, PFC, m2 bb twins, dp, mp, rb catback, cwr oil cooler, all the blockoffs, etc.
5. I couldn’t run anymore boost w/o detonation unless I went from the 100 lead free to C117 and a heated O2 sensor. It’s just not worth it-race gas is a real measure of street performance.
6. Now with a single:
a) I run my car hard all day without ever going over 95C even on the hottest summer days.
b) I’ve lost very little low end from before and now make over 400-450 rwhp on pump gas. (depends on boost)


BTW-backpressure is good for torque not top end hp. Sorry, I still can’t see 460 rwhp.

‘nuf said! I’ve been through this **** before. I’m done with this thread.

 

hey moderator is there any way that we can lock this pointless thread so that whenever someone finally posts some dyno's of there car they can just start a new thread? i check this thread multiple times a day for a dyno sheet, and now the thread is starting to remind me of high school.

 

"With all this I still pulled right at 390 blowing huge billows of fuel out the tail pipes....and that was on a Dynojet."

**390 rwhp? That's not bad at all..actually pretty good numbers.


"hey moderator is there any way that we can lock this pointless thread so that whenever someone finally posts some dyno's of there car they can just start a new thread? i check this thread multiple times a day for a dyno sheet, and now the thread is starting to remind me of high school.

** We don't want it locked...there is a lot of good info on this thread as many have stated. If you don't like it quit coming here everyday and reading/posting.

 

94sr2: what were you doing pulling twenty dyno pulls on a 95 degree day? most of us wont even drive to the store on a 95 degree day...let alone 20 DYNO PULLS??? now wonder you got heatsoak.

regardless of the heat issues you suggest...explain to me why I dont have the heatsoak issues you do? perhaps you will see that below.

you should not have done twenty pulls on that hot of a day. even with large fans on that kind of heat will cause your motor to pop. you lost your motor due to some over zealousness on your part. 20 pulls is way too many in my opinion. I tuned my car on the street...I did not have heatsoak issues. My temps never rose above 95 on the hottest days and hardest driving...for the most part they hovered around 87 degrees. after the runs I drove around to cool it off...then idled it with the fans and had the hood open. My temps were fine.

you dont have to tune on a dyno ya know....you can do what you need to do on the street like I did and get good results.

you can avoid those heatsoak issues if you do that. the air temps outside and the moving air at higher speeds will help to keep the car cool.

I wouldnt tune on a hot day anyhow...I did all my tuning a night and only at night.

I look forward to seeing your sheets. Im sorry that you lost your motor. I dont have those same problems you do (fortunately).

I would have gone single...was looking at an rx6 which was not much higher in price at the time...BUT SMOG LAWS PREVENT THAT IN CALIFORNIA. I could pass smog on the twins...I could not pass smog on the single setup.

that and the low end power gains of going with twins over a laggy single make it a worthwhile route.

Ive lost a motor on stock twins...twice...both due to heat...i know what you went thru...but it was not the twins that caused your problem...it was doing 20 dyno pulls on a 95 degree day. you cant blame that on your twins.

I do agree though...singles will run cooler...but I dont run hot now...and neither do the other guys with these setups.


as far as locking the thread....we would not have seen an opportunity to see 390hp pulls on the m2 turbos or explore the kind of issues that happen with doing this kind of upgrade.


jason

 

If you think your frustrated, I've spend $400 on dyno time and dont have a decent sheet to show you guys that I feel accuratly reflects my car....and I'm fixing to spend at least another $150 next week.....so $550 later plus the cost of me going out on a limb and trying these turbos (at my expense) you can make a decision weather or not you want to buy them. I want to get everything right, I'm not going to rush thru this just to prove a point. If you want to have the numbers you'll have to wait for them. I'm not trying to be an *** but I mean come on man, its not like you've hired me to do this or sent me any money to help share cost of the dyno sheet you so badly want to see.

I'm sorry you dont feel the thread is worthwhile just because there is no graph BUT, even if they didnt make more power than upgraded twins, the fact that they spool great and run much cooler is worthwhile enough to post about. I ran 17psi of boost over and over and over on a dyno and my air intake temps were right at 35C. On the street they stay really nice and cold.....as a matter of fact while on the dyno after 4-5hrs of tuning high boost runs, I could reach down and place my hand on the ROOM TEMPERATURE intake housing of the primary turbo. I dont think your going to do that with the stockers after running that kind of boost for that length of time.

Also, does anyone know exactly what the precieved restriction is in the stock manifold? Is it the bends? flapers? size? the fact that the stock turbos are carbon seal causing more friction which creates more back pressure??? What is the general assumption by everyone that has done these tests to find it it has a backpressure rating of 10 to 1???

Thanks,
STEPHEN

 

everything's a restriction on the stock manifold, especially the shared turbine housings and outlet into the dp. i really can't see how this can spool faster and make huge hp w/o going ball bearing. the larger compressors, i assume they are larger, should more than negate any upgrades in the seals, etc. unless brian just went out and invented new turbo technology, i just don't see it happening. larger compressor = more lag has been a problem w/ turbos since they were invented, how did bryan get around this?

 

I can understand the frustration for you guys. Its not that it is frustrating me, its more like these posts turn into flames. Maybe I dont like to see you all get flamed. Hell, it is a forum and thats just what a forum is. Its just like whats been said, 325 posts to read thru and nothing. Maybe everyone(me included) need to not reply to a certain post, so it can just provide the required info, I guess that would be more like an essay and not a forum post.
Oh, I never thought SPOautos was fibbing, I hope he hits a good mark. But, it just we get alot of promises and nothing.
Yes, I have spent little time fiddiling w/ my car, lately. I go in little spurts or a big gigantic spurt my first 1.5 years and then hardly anything. Interest has wained. But, I pop on every now and then and read the new post(s) on the upgraded twins. But, I am beginning to think, like has been stated, the HP is not there, thats the reason you upgraders seem to have problems, trying for the grail and damaging this or that.
well i posted and now I am done. I will pop end now and then. Good luck, just no more 300+posts, too much to read for one topic.

Steve

 

The carbon seals are OLD OLD OLD 80's technology that causes a TON of friction and heat. From a ton of trial and error and in house fabrication Brian has found a way to bring them up to current technology. Its not inventing anything new, just a new way of applying it to the old

STEPHEN

 

I agree with you 100%. I for one is quick to grab my over-under flame throwers BUT I held my trigger b/c I don't know anything about BNR upgrade nor have anything to disprove your posts. Now, with Rikki, his combinations are known and therefore are subject to flame review. Which I did gleefully a few months back.

Keep up the good work. In fact, open a paypal account so that we can donate towards your dyno time

 

To say that this thread has been useless is somewhat lame. I do understand about the info-nerds (me being one) who only look for dyno results and that's it. But if you peek through the pages, you'll see impressions of the turbos, BNR's unmatchable customer service, and some knowledge about BNRs twins and other upgraded turbos. Once you get to the 360 rwhp area on stock twins - that's it. 15 psi won't get you more than 360-370 rwhp on stock twins and that's pushing the twins pretty hard. Being able to get an extra 15-40?? rwhp at 15-17 psi is well worth the exploration of possibilites with upgraded twins. You can go single - but there's a few of us who want to be different.

If I saw a FD with a single turbo or upgraded twins I'd be more interested in the upgraded twin car first. The FD was given sequential twin turbos when it was made and that's what I fell in love with - even stock the car was so fun to drive at any speed. Throw a single turbo in and (besides maybe a T04e or RX6) you have a car that's mostly fun at highway speeds or at high rpms only. Give this thread maybe 2-3 more weeks and we'll get some results - good or bad.

 

Give them time I'm sure Bryan and Stephen will post and we'll all have our jaws on our keyboards. I'm sure they're so busy trying to talk to us on the phone that they can't even get to the computer. I can't wait to see those sheets whenever they may come, thanks guys

 

I agree, everyone needs to calm down about the dyno sheets!! They will get them up and from what I have heard about both of these guys (Bryan and Stephen) neither of them B.S. about these kinds of things. I really can't wait to see the sheets just like the rest of you, but come on. These guys have a life outside of the forum you know. Congrats again to Stephen and Bryan for doing the near impossible!! Laterz.

Zach

 

Thanks for the support guy!!!!

Also, I just thought I'd mention I dont actually work for BNR, I'm just a good friend of Brians, we were friend before he started BNR.

And, yes I do have a VERY full time job that takes quite a lot of time. As soon as the dyno is ready for me I'll be there. They are telling me the first part of this coming week so I'm changing out my plugs this weekend to get ready.

STEPHEN

 

hey stephen,
is he the guyy that used to own/work at extreme turbos or something like that?

 

I am sooo excited for SPOAutos and BNR....... they are sooo close to posting the results..... and from what I have heard..... These numbers will get some respect from the t78 and large single turbo folks in HP numbers..... I didn't check with Bryan if I could disclose what he told me the HP figures were and so forth so I'll hold off in respect of his interests of keeping it hush hush until some results are made.......

 

batman teases with the knowledge then goes SUCKKKKKA. im not telling you jack. cant wait to see the numbers guys. im not looking at top HP but this CA crap is a crock. pretty soon we wont be able to run aftermarket blinker fluid like the stuff in the locked thread
kris

 

imagine BNR on a MK4.............

 

Bryan used to work for Turbo Specialties.

 

Yeah, and then they fired his *** because he kept ******* up people's turbos!

'No Boss you gotta believe me...this idea I have for a new seal is badass. It will work so well trust me...I'm calling it the DYNAMIC SEAL!'

YOU'RE FIRED *******!!


lol...just kidding