86boy

iTrader: (1)

OK I just bought this and I'm kind of running out of ideas on this. When I got it it would barely run as you would have to keep the throttle depressed a little for it to stay running. The guy I bought it from said the car was running perfectly when he pulled it in the driveway to make some changes. His changes were adding gauges, changing the oil, trans oil, and removing the AST. He went to start it and it wouldn't.

Little backstory from the previous owner. After I got it home I obviously looked further into it. Found out it had a strange wire from the MAP to the instrument cluster.... OK..... disconnected that and low and behold it started, and later found out it has a 2001/2002 cluster. It still running rich with visible black smoke out the exhaust. Also luckily enough it has a wideband from AEM. it was running 10.5 with this one way valve on the vacuum line between the map and the intake manifold. Swapped out the vacuum line where it didn't have that one way valve and now getting the 11.4 reading cold and at 150* F it only leans out to 11.6-11.7 AFR. Although its still crazy rich with still some black smoke. I also tried the deflooding procedure.

I also made sure all the ignition coils were firing, and they are. Pulled the plugs, and they are the correct part number according to the factory service manual. The leading plus were NGK BUR7EQP, and the trailing plugs were NGK BUR9EQP. When I pulled the plugs both leading plugs were minimally wet, and the trailing plugs were SOAKED. Where I live I had to order the correct spark plugs. The gap of all 4 according to the FSM were within spec at 57 thousandths.

Checked all the gauges he installed and they were not tapped into anything stupid like that map sensor was. The gauges are coolant temp, oil pressure, oil temp, boost, AEM wideband, and oil temp.


It took me a while to discover the JDM cluster does NOT have a check engine light either. So currently I can't check the codes. I am working on that, and should be able to check them tonight with the TEN to GND, and FEN to an L.E.D. to 680 ohm resistor and to B+..... so hopefully that will tell something. Also the guy told me the edu was chipped by M2 to get rid of a 3000 rpm stutter? Idle it also has greedy exhaust. To my knowledge thats all thats been done to it.

My question after all that is what else could cause these to run rich at idle? If you press the throttle it just pours coal out the exhaust like a diesel. Can't try nenew plugs til tuesday. I'm tempted to pull the injectors and test em as well.... any ideas thoughts would be appreciated.

86boy

iTrader: (1)

Update from this evening. I got the CEL with the LED. Flashing 28 solenoid valve EGR. Now I can't really see this being my problem, but it could be. Rotary engines are a different beast to tame. I might almost just drop this for now until I can find a stock uncut/unmodified engine harness. It was also flashing 34 for the ISC (BAC). Found a plug missing wires.... both wires were pulled from the connector. Got that all plugged back in. Also found a single wire with a black connector not plugged into anything on the drivers side near the spark plugs. Both sides of the connector were there, not one one side was attached. There is also spade connector that someone put in on the drivers side but down near the frame rail. Oh joyous times of other peoples messes. I'm also going to guess that the smog pump freaking out is either due to the EGR code or because its crazy rich.


I took the ecu out and opened it up as well. There is a MM performance MM05 on one chip and MM 16 on another. I'll be looking that up sometime tomorrow as well.

Added 4.7 gallons of fresh 91 from the Shell station..... didn't make much of a difference either. Ugh.... more testing tomorrow.

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

Where in NE? And what mods on the car?
I'm in Bellevue have a stock 5 spd ECU you're welcome to try it and see if that makes any difference. As for wiring, maybe this will help a little to see what your dealing with (not my photo).....


Sounds like your making progress, but swapping harnesses and pulling injectors is no small job on these cars. If you haven't already, you can download the Factory Service Manual from the stickys in the 3rd Gen. Section of the forum.

86boy

iTrader: (1)

Actually that picture DOES in fact help out A LOT! thank you! I'm also in the panhandle of NE. The factory service manual was the first thing I got after buying the car lol! I've got a whole build thread for my AE86 on 86garage.com with the same username. So I've been through most of this before haha. Just a matter of narrowing it down. I do appreciate the offer with the ECU as well. I'll let you know if it comes down to that though.

As far as mods (I thought I put that in there apparently not :/ ) go it has a M2 chipped ECU, (Full?) Greddy Exhaust, aftermarket intercooler, all aluminum radiator, AST removed, aaannnnddddd some 01 or 02 instrument cluster.

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

I'm guessing you bought Ripley's car. He started this thread a while back. Maybe there will be something in it to help. FWIW I think my last suggestion was to check CAS and wiring.

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...nning-1003139/

86boy

iTrader: (1)

That is correct Sgtblue! I did buy that one, and I'm getting to the point of actually considering finding a used uncut stock harness or a new one. There's quite a few connectors that are broken, and other wires are attached. There's all sorts of stuff that is just "off" in my opinion.... that will just lead to more issues. I was going to link that, but couldn't find that thread again, and forgot what his username was. The car is running again on it's own.... just way on the rich side. Almost starting to wonder if the TPS doesn't need to be adjusted, or the MAP sensor was damaged from the extra wire going to the cluster? idk... I'm going to see how different the MAP sensors are from my Toyota ones (from the 4AGZE DLI/MAP version), and if the connectors/pins are the same I might try that as they SHOULD in theory function the same from what I've read about the 7's version. I also threw in 5 new gallons of Shell 91 octane. I think I mentioned that, but can't remember. I'm also on my phone so it's a little difficult to go back through currently.

This car just has me haha that picture will definitely help for this evening though. For example it looks like someone was rough with the wiring. The idle control (BAC) still had the connector attached, but the pins were clearly pulled out. The little "barbs" that hold the pins in were bent down, but I got that back on there as well. There's a couple other connectors that I'm still unsure of. Also I think he might be slightly color blind... as in his thread he claims the smoke is white, and it is clearly not. It also has that rich smell, and burning of the eyes even outside a standing a little away from the car.

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

If you buy a used harness, try to stick with long time members with a reputation. NEW harnesses are stupidly expensive (>$1000). Good used (unaltered) harnesses aren't cheap...but agree that may be the way to go.
FD MAP sensors come up for sale in the 3rd Gen. parts section occasionally. And I think I've also seen them on ebay recently. You could also PM a member here named Fritz Flynn. A trusted source for fairly priced used parts... like a harness and MAP sensor. Personally I would try to stay with one of those rather than 'adapt' one from another car.

I only saw the car (now your car) briefly a couple years ago while passing through town on my way back from a Colorado trip. IIRC, Landon had just bought it and he had some questions. I remember talking most about doing the cooling/reliablity mods. I don't remember alot of detail on the condition of things. You may also have some luck meeting someone more local to you and that's familiar with the FD in the MOUNTAIN Regional section. Good luck.

86boy

iTrader: (1)

holy crap hardnesses are expensive for these cars. woofta...

anyways I will probably end up buying a new MAP sensor regardless... as it's nice to have a spare one of those. I would lean towards an injector leaking, but when I pulled the plugs both rotors spark plugs had equal amount of "fuel" on them. Leading was barely wet, and the trailing plugs were soaked. Unless 2 of the injectors (1 or both on each rotor) are leaking. I'm going to say no at this point though.

I tried propane looking for a vacuum leak, but I may try some carb n choke cleaner.. I've never seemed to get the propane to go where I want it to in tight spots. Always wonder if it went the other direction, and you can visually see where the carb n choke cleaner goes. It's pulling 15-16 on the aftermarket boost gauge for vacuum. I'd say meeehhh could be a sliiiiight leak, but then again I've only seen 1 post where a guy said 18-20 is where these should sit at when idling.

There's a black plug on the drivers side of the engine bay that has 1 wire that is behind the power steering pump. It is apart of the harness and has about 6-8 inches of wire, and for the life of me can't figure out where it goes. I'll get the wire color this evening as well as test the TPS as I was lazy last night...

beckrx

iTrader: (18)

FWIW, a properly spliced MAP sensor for the wire connected to the 2002 cluster operates the boost gauge. [Rx7 Boutique Tutorial] How to install a 99+ Cluster in your USDM FD - RX7Club.com

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

Does it look like the knock sensor plug in the picture?

Reno_NVFD

iTrader: (2)

Browse the used parts section every now and then a new harness that someone didnt use in their project come up for sale around $500. Good luck with the project. Rywire did a single turbo harness and I believe they were working on a stock one as well, might check into that as well.

86boy

iTrader: (1)

It's really weird. I did read that thread, but if I hook up that MAP sensor wire... the car acts like it wants to start but doesn't without holding the throttle down. I unhook that wire the car will start up and idle on it's own with no throttle. There's also an aftermarket boost gauge so I'm not too worried about it. The boost gauge in the cluster can just not be hooked up in my opinion since it causes more issues with mine than it needs.

after looking at the car, and looking at that picture again it does indeed look like that is it. There's a plug that is towards the top of the engine that I believe needs to go to that plug, and I'll take a second look at that tonight. Last night resulted in taking the intake manifold off, and testing the EGR solenoid valve which I'm sure has failed. I've been reading you can eliminate this easily but i'm not 100% sure.

Thanks for this information I will keep my eyes open for one!

beckrx

iTrader: (18)

Rywire : Mil-spec Tucked 13B harness (FD3S/Rx7) - $649.00

86boy

iTrader: (1)

That's the one I found. What are your thoughts on that harness? Quality wise that is. I don't want to drop 650 and have a bigger nightmare than I already have...

Little update I got the solenoids out for further detailed testing....and easier testing. I'm glad I got the FSM as that looks like a challenge getting that back in there correctly :/ I'm also ordering a vacuum/pressure tester....no one here locally has one...stupid Nebraska. Anyways I borrowed a vacuum tester from a friend and the EGR one failed and one next to it failed. So I'm going to guess something in the "rats nest" of solenoids lies my problem. Is there anything suggestions while I'm here I should also do? It already has new vacuum lines. Just figured I'd ask since I'm already here.....and this deep. My friend found a "Remanufactored Product" with MAZDA centered in the sticker attached to the top-center of the engine. So I'm going to assume that's a good thing? Since it was from Mazda and not some random person attempting a rebuild haha.

abc

I ran into a similar problem with running super rich awhiles back......The MAP readings were way off causing extreme richness.

Just something to throw out there:

Fix: There's a harness that runs behind the driver's front inner wheel liner. The tire would rub through the plastic liner and touch the harness and causing this exact same fault as you have. Lower cars, larger wheels will usually cause this. G/L and let us know what you find!

86boy

iTrader: (1)

considering this car has the stock suspension (i think), and only 17" wheels I think it's ok on that part, but I will check that later this evening! I'm open to any suggestions. I'm guessing there is a way to test the MAP sensor in the FSM I'm guessing. I haven't personally looked for that yet.

Question for you experts on here! If the solenoids in the rack under the intake manifold bleed air... that would cause some definite issues of running rich almost like a vacuum leak, but won't show up on a boost/vacuum gauge. Since there is no external leak. I know the EGR valve is stuck, and another gauge leaks air pretty badly. Would that result in the same issue I'm having currently? Also are those solenoids dealer only?

beckrx

iTrader: (18)

I have no comments on the quality. If you compare the connectors to the ones from the stock harness, there are a few missing if you are running a stock setup. The Rywire does have two extra wires that can be used as desired.

Going back to the MAP/2002 cluster splicing, there should be a separate chassis ground running to the 2002 cluster. Perhaps it is not grounded and its lack thereof is causing your starting problems. You may want to make sure the cluster is (properly) grounded as that may be causing your starting issues since the cluster is spliced into the MAP sensor.

86boy

iTrader: (1)

Ya there was/is a separate ground wire. Currently I have the ground hooked up to the cluster for it to work.

So one of my friends had a vacuum testers. I followed the guide on testing the solenoids at least with vacuum anyways. So I grabbed a 9v and got to testing.... according to that guide... a 3 failed with the first step whatevs. Then 3 failed because of them being stuck, and wouldn't loosen up. Then the other 2 leaked hardcore when continually energized trying to put vacuum on them. Then there's one that doesn't have 2 nipples on the opposite side of the power connector. I didn't write down how to test that one, but it appears the valve is stuck on that one too....

Soooo.... this might get expensive, and I'm contemplating on doing the simple seq. Vacuum setup as well to minimize the headache of vacuum routing. I did find a block off kit from bonzai? I think is what it was called I'm on my phone and its bookmarked on my computer. Is there any aftermarket solenoids or is the stock OEM Mazda's the best bet to replace these? I'm going to guess this is where my problem lies.

beckrx

iTrader: (18)

After market solenoids: https://www.rx7club.com/group-buy-pr.../#post10780399
A complete set of new solenoids, including the duty solenoids, set me back $600+ but it was well worth it. Ray at Malloy Mazda is the best place to order stock parts. 703-490-8170.

86boy

iTrader: (1)

looks as if I missed the GB.. maybe next time. Thanks for the links!! I would def. buy that kit if it was still available.

beckrx

iTrader: (18)

He is still making them. https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...rness-1021746/

86boy

iTrader: (1)

Well I've decided just to go the route of the Simplified Sequential for now. Also just bought the stock solenoids from Mazdatrix.com. I would be down for those custom solenoids, but that price tag of $725 is a bit rich for my blood for not knowing if this fixes it or not....

I did discover on Mazdatrix solenoid description of the "Pressure Regulator" in the FSM is actually a "Fuel Pressure Relief" which kinda makes sense why the car would be running stupid rich since that vacuum solenoid is bad... like really bad. So hopefully this will clear out my issue. Hoping those will be here by friday this week so I will know or not!! just a little update on this so far. Since I hate how threads stop RIGHT before the answer was given.

86boy

iTrader: (1)

Ok... well I got my 4 solenoids put them in, and it's A LOT better, but still running rich. The AFR's are mid 11's semi-cold and high 11's-12 flat at 180 *F. I readjusted the TPS as it was slightly out of spec. played around with the idle a bit, and it runs smooth now. It doesn't smoke like a freight train anymore. rev it up and it dumps fuel, but then it barely smokes when it comes back down to idle. I bled the coolant system of air bubbles as well. I was getting 1.3 v on the signal wire for the map sensor at idle with the vacuum reading 15/16. I have checked for vacuum leaks with propane again, but no changes in the way the engine runs. The car idles at 12-1300 rpms as well. Another side note is the car is idling with vacuum reading 15/16, and I can tap (literally tap) the throttle and when it idles back down it'll be reading 11/12 and obviously it goes rich down the mid 10's. Tap the throttle again, and it goes back to the 15/16 and high 11's low 12's on the AFRs. I also have 3 map sensor coming (bought them used) to test that as well.

I stopped for today when a random antifreeze leak started...

I'm finally starting to get frustrated with this even though it's a LOT better than it was when I first bought it. Everything I read relates back to the MAP sensor vacuum line, "search the FSM", or "rats nest" leak somewhere. I've check all that, and all sorts of other things. I'm going to see if I can borrow my friends compression tester to see what the numbers are actually reading since the car can warm up now.... even though the engine acts like it has good compression. Idles smoothly just still dumping fuel.

EDIT: I just read in another thread someone mentioned the clutch safety switch can cause rough idle issues? When I try to start my car I get the annoying click click then start. maybe that has something to with it as well? idk... I can check that as well. Just trying to give AS much info as possible...

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

The click, click before starting is somewhat common on these cars and relates to how MAZDA wired the starter. I'd have to review some of the threads to explain it further, but it won't have anything to do with it running rich.
Does the richness seem to be limited to one rotor over the other?...maybe suggesting an injector issue? What does the FSM say about the fuel temp sensor and issues it causes if out of spec? Just tossing things out. I'm glad your sticking with it and making progress. I can imagine the frustration.

86boy

iTrader: (1)

Yeah i found a thread named "click click start" lol possibly something to do with the security relay?.(


It seems equal between both rotors according to the spark plugs. I was starting to suspect the injector(s), but whereas both rotors seem to be getting equal fuel I want to say no....but I'm not ruling it out by any means. Possibly this week I'll take the intake manifold back off, and pull the injectors and test them. I was browsing through the FSM earlier and came across that fuel temp senor, and realized that could be another issue to look at.

One thing that knd of bothers me is the MAP senor voltages are a little out of spec with what the FSM says they should be at specific vacuum readings. I was getting 0.3v below the "threashold" on the vacuum test, within the threshold at 0, and 0.2v below on the pressure test. Another odd thing was my friend and I hooked up the vacuum tester to the map sensor and pulled 13 inMG of vacuum and started the car. We then added more vacuum while watching the wideband. Got to 14-15 and the car was still running and went a little more to 16 inMG and the car just died. Mind you this is all sitting in the driveway not driving it as that would be very special to do.