The RX-7 confirmed to be in the pipeline for 2017---RX-Vision Unveil!!
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Charlottesville VA 22901
Fingers crossed, come on Mazda make a good sports car decision for a change
Senior Member
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From: UK
I am sure they are trying to but the issues with the RX-8 really hurt the rotary's reputation, even though most of those issues were due to owner incompetence. If they do come out with something like the RX-Vision it should be sold as a low volume halo car and Mazda shouldn't skimp on things like oil quality or ignition components just to save a couple of dollars and/or reduce the emissions car tax bracket by a couple bucks either. They should build it to a spec rather than to a cost if the car is to be more reliable than their past RX-8 effort which was designed to sell as a budget sports car. Budget and rotary do not go hand-in-hand nowadays like they used to in the 80s.
What's the target market? High performance and high cost? Think there's a lot of competition there.
Remember, the FD was relatively high performance and high cost and it didn't sell well because there's other better cars in that price range (fuel consumption and reliability played a part as well). This led to the RX8 which was lower performance and lower cost, but there was better competition there as well. Mazda's true niche is the MX-5, but although there's no competition (relatively), there's also not much overall demand for a sporty 2 seat rag top.
Remember, the FD was relatively high performance and high cost and it didn't sell well because there's other better cars in that price range (fuel consumption and reliability played a part as well). This led to the RX8 which was lower performance and lower cost, but there was better competition there as well. Mazda's true niche is the MX-5, but although there's no competition (relatively), there's also not much overall demand for a sporty 2 seat rag top.
if the car is to be more reliable than their past RX-8 effort which was designed to sell as a budget sports car.
I don't think Mazda has a reliability problem with its other budget sports cars so charging the customer an arm and a leg won't make a new rotary more "reliable".
Look at the crazy high price of FD RX-7s when they came out....
Taking a long time in R&D and testing is what will determine if the new rotary is reliable and Mazda has certainly been doing that.
Some of that cost of development WILL be passed on to the consumer, but there is no way any $50,000 plus car is more reliable than a $15-25,000 Mazda.
Usually the more a car costs the less reliable and more "maintenance" it requires.
Most problems I see with RX-8 was car didn't start one morning, must be blown up because its a rotary.
That is one reason I wished Mazda would do a hybrid with a pancake motor/flywheel with some serious battery and grunt to start a rotary even with low compression (like from carbon lock, flooding or even wear).
I don't think Mazda has a reliability problem with its other budget sports cars so charging the customer an arm and a leg won't make a new rotary more "reliable".
Look at the crazy high price of FD RX-7s when they came out....
Taking a long time in R&D and testing is what will determine if the new rotary is reliable and Mazda has certainly been doing that.
Some of that cost of development WILL be passed on to the consumer, but there is no way any $50,000 plus car is more reliable than a $15-25,000 Mazda.
Usually the more a car costs the less reliable and more "maintenance" it requires.
Most problems I see with RX-8 was car didn't start one morning, must be blown up because its a rotary.
That is one reason I wished Mazda would do a hybrid with a pancake motor/flywheel with some serious battery and grunt to start a rotary even with low compression (like from carbon lock, flooding or even wear).
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 336
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From: UK
The RX-8 was plagued by cut corners such as badly designed ignition coils and wires which had to be revised 3 times over the life of the car, improper OMP oil injection points (and too little being injected) not covering the apex seal properly, too low of a spec of oil at 5w-30 which some believe led to them eating the bearings whereas on FDs and older RX-7s the cars were not plagued by this problem due to the factory spec of 10w-30/40 or higher, bad water pump design which cavitates above 7,000 RPM, a crap starter which was revised 4 times as well as a few other less crucial issues with the car over the years.
But what I was trying to get at in my post above was if Mazda comes out with the next rotary it should really not cut corners are components critical to the engine functioning properly such as the ignition and cooling systems. And, they should have more realistic and frequent service intervals embedded in the manual. I'm not sure what the US RX-8 manual reads like but in the UK one it is to use 5w-30 and change the oil and spark plugs every 12,500 miles and coils every 100,000 which is crazy. They likely did this due to the large lease company car culture in the UK and the fact that over here most people don't self service their cars or even remember when to do so (hence all the idiot lights on the BMWs and stuff nowadays to remind you). With a RX-8 you should run 10w-30/40, change the oil no later than 6,000 miles and change the coils at 20,000-30,000 miles.
But what I was trying to get at in my post above was if Mazda comes out with the next rotary it should really not cut corners are components critical to the engine functioning properly such as the ignition and cooling systems. And, they should have more realistic and frequent service intervals embedded in the manual. I'm not sure what the US RX-8 manual reads like but in the UK one it is to use 5w-30 and change the oil and spark plugs every 12,500 miles and coils every 100,000 which is crazy. They likely did this due to the large lease company car culture in the UK and the fact that over here most people don't self service their cars or even remember when to do so (hence all the idiot lights on the BMWs and stuff nowadays to remind you). With a RX-8 you should run 10w-30/40, change the oil no later than 6,000 miles and change the coils at 20,000-30,000 miles.
Last edited by cib24; Apr 4, 2016 at 12:40 PM.
Well, as we know from other recent Mazda patents, they are working with laser ignition and did a complete study and revision on the rotary oiling system.
That is what I mean by R&D and testing that will add to the final products cost.
Peripherals (like coils and starter) are a tough problem and sadly one that is likely to plague a new rotary as well.
Mazda doesn't make the peripherals and has to pay an arm and a leg for the sub-contractors to make up a special spec to suit Mazda's rotary (of which they have no experience).
Through extensive testing Mazda can hope to work through problems with sub-contractor peripherals as well.
But, the fact is if Mazda makes an upscale rotary it will be less reliable than a bare bones or performance oriented model since the consumer willing to pay that upscale price will demand more cutting edge technology (unproven) and more options (more to break) which will further add weight and demand more power for the same performance specs (more power = less reliable).
Unless Mazda shatters the paradigm Japanese auto manufacturers have cast themselves in and offers a bare bones performance auto at upscale prices (like an Alfa 4C or Lotus Elise/Exige).
So, a fixed roof ND MX-5 based platform with a high power turbo rotary and some more expensive parts for further weight reduction.
450hp and 2,000lbs should fetch a premium upscale price even stripped of conveniences.
AKA My dream car and rotary destroyer of worlds (egos).
That is what I mean by R&D and testing that will add to the final products cost.
Peripherals (like coils and starter) are a tough problem and sadly one that is likely to plague a new rotary as well.
Mazda doesn't make the peripherals and has to pay an arm and a leg for the sub-contractors to make up a special spec to suit Mazda's rotary (of which they have no experience).
Through extensive testing Mazda can hope to work through problems with sub-contractor peripherals as well.
But, the fact is if Mazda makes an upscale rotary it will be less reliable than a bare bones or performance oriented model since the consumer willing to pay that upscale price will demand more cutting edge technology (unproven) and more options (more to break) which will further add weight and demand more power for the same performance specs (more power = less reliable).
Unless Mazda shatters the paradigm Japanese auto manufacturers have cast themselves in and offers a bare bones performance auto at upscale prices (like an Alfa 4C or Lotus Elise/Exige).
So, a fixed roof ND MX-5 based platform with a high power turbo rotary and some more expensive parts for further weight reduction.
450hp and 2,000lbs should fetch a premium upscale price even stripped of conveniences.
AKA My dream car and rotary destroyer of worlds (egos).
Holy Crap Mazda's Working On A New Turbo Rotary Engine
My take-away is two-fold:
1. Mazda is a little closer to a new rotary sports car! Always good news.
2. If they do produce a new rotary-powered car, there will be newer engine options for our old SAs/FCs/FDs. Initially expensive as "crate engines," but used ones will start popping up over time.
My take-away is two-fold:
1. Mazda is a little closer to a new rotary sports car! Always good news.
2. If they do produce a new rotary-powered car, there will be newer engine options for our old SAs/FCs/FDs. Initially expensive as "crate engines," but used ones will start popping up over time.
Senior Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 336
Likes: 14
From: UK
MY EXCITEMENT CAN BARELY BE CONTAINED
Patent Filing
http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnet ahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%222016 0084158%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20160084158&RS=DN/20160084158
Images associated with filing and numbers correspond to text in filing.
Patent Filing
http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnet ahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%222016 0084158%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20160084158&RS=DN/20160084158
Images associated with filing and numbers correspond to text in filing.
The variable volume exhaust port should really help spool the turbo!
It has a small port cross section/volume at the point of greatest exhaust pressure (early phase of exhaust blow-down). That is going to be some high exhaust velocity.
That was one weak point on the Renesis I, it didn't spool a turbo as well as the old 13Bs with peripheral exhaust with all that overlap dumping gasoline& air into the exhaust.
Well, that and you were foolish to try to turbo a Renesis I in the 1st place due to its high compression ratio and easily sacked out side seal springs.
It has a small port cross section/volume at the point of greatest exhaust pressure (early phase of exhaust blow-down). That is going to be some high exhaust velocity.
That was one weak point on the Renesis I, it didn't spool a turbo as well as the old 13Bs with peripheral exhaust with all that overlap dumping gasoline& air into the exhaust.
Well, that and you were foolish to try to turbo a Renesis I in the 1st place due to its high compression ratio and easily sacked out side seal springs.
Last edited by BLUE TII; Apr 4, 2016 at 05:13 PM.
Lives on the Forum
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 5,014
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From: CT
Curse you. Mustangs are the antithesis of a fd. I don't care what numbers they put up in terms of track times and other metrics. There is no way a mustang will be as fun as a fd.
The demographic of ford and chevy owners is changing to include true sports enthusiast because they have improved their sports cars so much in both performance and looks that a whole new kind of respect is warranted.
At this time mazda has a long way to go to catch chevy and ford sports cars but they can easily carve out their own niche with a light weight powerful rotary and that's a car that I think would sell.
The demographic of ford and chevy owners is changing to include true sports enthusiast because they have improved their sports cars so much in both performance and looks that a whole new kind of respect is warranted.
At this time mazda has a long way to go to catch chevy and ford sports cars but they can easily carve out their own niche with a light weight powerful rotary and that's a car that I think would sell.
If you don't believe the new Mustang hype, read some reviews of the GT350. It is serious business. Not just good for a Mustang, but good period. The previous gen Boss 302 Laguna Seca was pretty good, but this GT350 is even better.
Then there is the GT350R, BUT that is way more $$.
It is no longer a straight line car. I'll agree that it is no FD, but value for $/HP/features/tech is hard to beat. Hell you can even get magnetic ride suspension as an option. 8200RPM V8 in the GT350. Certainly it has improved since the Fox body Mustangs of old.
Now I'm sure that's enough fan boy for one post, back on topic:
If the new Rx whatever looks remotely close to the concept and is not mega $$ I might be buying my first NEW car.
Vince
Then there is the GT350R, BUT that is way more $$.
It is no longer a straight line car. I'll agree that it is no FD, but value for $/HP/features/tech is hard to beat. Hell you can even get magnetic ride suspension as an option. 8200RPM V8 in the GT350. Certainly it has improved since the Fox body Mustangs of old.
Now I'm sure that's enough fan boy for one post, back on topic:
If the new Rx whatever looks remotely close to the concept and is not mega $$ I might be buying my first NEW car.
Vince
I wonder if they decided to move away from direct injection... the upside down design makes it more difficult to do. Also interesting is how will the oil injection work in that scenario...
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,672
Likes: 413
From: Charlottesville VA 22901
Even better the 2016 Camaro.
Guys these cars are frikken crazy good for the money.
Camaro is 3600 pounds, 455 HP, zero to 60 in 4 seconds, .97 Gs and it's supposed to be a good dancer as well. Sorry but I doubt a stock FD will have anything at all for it.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,672
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From: Charlottesville VA 22901
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,279
Likes: 728
From: Florence, Alabama
a few months ago i drove a new Mustang that is the test mule/R&D for Beyond Redline. it was a turbo four that they have making somewhere around 470 rw.
Luke asked me, upon my return, what i thought of it. i told him i liked the powertrain but he could have everything else. obviously it wasn't a Boss 302 but it did have a pretty full tilt suspension.
for me it begins and ends w the question:
what does it weigh?
the answer in this case is about 900 pounds more than what i like. you can do all the trick suspension stuff but you are putting lipstick on a pig.
weight kills you everywhere.... and the opposite of weight works everywhere.
for my 22 seasons of racing i generally ran w GT1 and GT2. halfway thru the race most of the GT1 cars would be out of tires, out of brakes and sliding all over the place.
and yes of course there were exceptions but weight sucks.
as a grocery getter sure, but on the twisties after a couple of laps, not for me.
then there's weight distribution.
my FD has 52% rear weight.
excess front weight burns up already burdened front tires, an additional 20% shifts forward under braking so you can't use much rear brakes... the more rear weight the more you can turn up rear brake bias... he who has the most rear brakes wins.
it is no accident that Mazda has the new MX5 (or whatever it is called) perched on a scale. it is no accident that talk of a transaxle in the new Vision is being heard.
it is all about weight and few can do it better than Mazda.
Luke asked me, upon my return, what i thought of it. i told him i liked the powertrain but he could have everything else. obviously it wasn't a Boss 302 but it did have a pretty full tilt suspension.
for me it begins and ends w the question:
what does it weigh?
the answer in this case is about 900 pounds more than what i like. you can do all the trick suspension stuff but you are putting lipstick on a pig.
weight kills you everywhere.... and the opposite of weight works everywhere.
for my 22 seasons of racing i generally ran w GT1 and GT2. halfway thru the race most of the GT1 cars would be out of tires, out of brakes and sliding all over the place.
and yes of course there were exceptions but weight sucks.
as a grocery getter sure, but on the twisties after a couple of laps, not for me.
then there's weight distribution.
my FD has 52% rear weight.
excess front weight burns up already burdened front tires, an additional 20% shifts forward under braking so you can't use much rear brakes... the more rear weight the more you can turn up rear brake bias... he who has the most rear brakes wins.
it is no accident that Mazda has the new MX5 (or whatever it is called) perched on a scale. it is no accident that talk of a transaxle in the new Vision is being heard.
it is all about weight and few can do it better than Mazda.
True about the knock-on effects of weight increase, but not many people do actual competitive circuit racing with the FD.
I mean, you know exactly how much actual racing costs and how hard it is to get sponsors.
If it were actual competitive circuit racing there would be classes involved and everyone in your class would probably be able to get to around the same minimum weights and similar power outputs.
People just want a car that can put down a lap time worth bragging about no matter the track. I can understand that.
I mean, you know exactly how much actual racing costs and how hard it is to get sponsors.
If it were actual competitive circuit racing there would be classes involved and everyone in your class would probably be able to get to around the same minimum weights and similar power outputs.
People just want a car that can put down a lap time worth bragging about no matter the track. I can understand that.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,672
Likes: 413
From: Charlottesville VA 22901
a few months ago i drove a new Mustang that is the test mule/R&D for Beyond Redline. it was a turbo four that they have making somewhere around 470 rw.
Luke asked me, upon my return, what i thought of it. i told him i liked the powertrain but he could have everything else. obviously it wasn't a Boss 302 but it did have a pretty full tilt suspension.
for me it begins and ends w the question:
what does it weigh?
the answer in this case is about 900 pounds more than what i like. you can do all the trick suspension stuff but you are putting lipstick on a pig.
weight kills you everywhere.... and the opposite of weight works everywhere.
for my 22 seasons of racing i generally ran w GT1 and GT2. halfway thru the race most of the GT1 cars would be out of tires, out of brakes and sliding all over the place.
and yes of course there were exceptions but weight sucks.
as a grocery getter sure, but on the twisties after a couple of laps, not for me.
then there's weight distribution.
my FD has 52% rear weight.
excess front weight burns up already burdened front tires, an additional 20% shifts forward under braking so you can't use much rear brakes... the more rear weight the more you can turn up rear brake bias... he who has the most rear brakes wins.
it is no accident that Mazda has the new MX5 (or whatever it is called) perched on a scale. it is no accident that talk of a transaxle in the new Vision is being heard.
it is all about weight and few can do it better than Mazda.
Luke asked me, upon my return, what i thought of it. i told him i liked the powertrain but he could have everything else. obviously it wasn't a Boss 302 but it did have a pretty full tilt suspension.
for me it begins and ends w the question:
what does it weigh?
the answer in this case is about 900 pounds more than what i like. you can do all the trick suspension stuff but you are putting lipstick on a pig.
weight kills you everywhere.... and the opposite of weight works everywhere.
for my 22 seasons of racing i generally ran w GT1 and GT2. halfway thru the race most of the GT1 cars would be out of tires, out of brakes and sliding all over the place.
and yes of course there were exceptions but weight sucks.
as a grocery getter sure, but on the twisties after a couple of laps, not for me.
then there's weight distribution.
my FD has 52% rear weight.
excess front weight burns up already burdened front tires, an additional 20% shifts forward under braking so you can't use much rear brakes... the more rear weight the more you can turn up rear brake bias... he who has the most rear brakes wins.
it is no accident that Mazda has the new MX5 (or whatever it is called) perched on a scale. it is no accident that talk of a transaxle in the new Vision is being heard.
it is all about weight and few can do it better than Mazda.
THAT SAID; 3600 for a 450 HP car really isn't that heavy. If you want to sell cars it's a combination of weight, handling and POWER. Nobody wants a boring sports car. The 26000 dollar mustang out performs the miata (it even out brakes it lol). The GT mustang is a 32k car and the miatas performance isn't even close. I'll repeat there's a good reason that this car that magazines fall all over isn't selling and that's because it cost more or about the same as cars that out perform it by a wide margin and most also look better doing it
Still haven't seen the miata in person but not a fan of the design on paper. The 2016 mustang is a sexy car in person. I'll repeat mazda blew it. The MX needs another 50 minimum HP and had they given it 250 HP they could not make enough of them.
PS another thing to consider is any practical/sports car making 400 plus HP pretty much has to be 3k or more in weight because of chassis, drive line, brakes, wheels/tires etc... to support the POWER.
True about the knock-on effects of weight increase, but not many people do actual competitive circuit racing with the FD.
I mean, you know exactly how much actual racing costs and how hard it is to get sponsors.
If it were actual competitive circuit racing there would be classes involved and everyone in your class would probably be able to get to around the same minimum weights and similar power outputs.
People just want a car that can put down a lap time worth bragging about no matter the track. I can understand that.
I mean, you know exactly how much actual racing costs and how hard it is to get sponsors.
If it were actual competitive circuit racing there would be classes involved and everyone in your class would probably be able to get to around the same minimum weights and similar power outputs.
People just want a car that can put down a lap time worth bragging about no matter the track. I can understand that.
What's more fun to drive a GTR or a miata. If you said miata you are not related to Ricky Bobby.
What's more fun to drive a GTR or a miata. If you said miata you are not related to Ricky Bobby.
Well, bad example...
At auto-x/kart track the Miata is more fun for me to drive since the GTRs are heavy understeering pigs.
People offer me to drive their Subaru, Porsche, etc etc and I say no because I have seen or felt what an understeering pig they are.
Its just frustrating to me having to slow down and wait for the car to stop pushing even if the lap times are better.
Someone offers me to drive a 100% stock Miata or a well set-up one and I jump on the chance!
Hmm I'm struggling to see what's different when it comes to making the engine more emission compliant? I understand the advanatges on the intake side but what is Mazda doing differently to make it burn cleaner? Also what about this setup is gonna make it more fuel efficient? I was really expecting to see direct injection. Emissions and fuel economy is why the Renesis died in the 1st place.
Last edited by t-von; Apr 7, 2016 at 12:41 PM.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,672
Likes: 413
From: Charlottesville VA 22901
What's more fun to drive a GTR or a miata. If you said miata you are not related to Ricky Bobby.
Well, bad example...
At auto-x/kart track the Miata is more fun for me to drive since the GTRs are heavy understeering pigs.
People offer me to drive their Subaru, Porsche, etc etc and I say no because I have seen or felt what an understeering pig they are.
Its just frustrating to me having to slow down and wait for the car to stop pushing even if the lap times are better.
Someone offers me to drive a 100% stock Miata or a well set-up one and I jump on the chance!
Take the time to setup the GTR and you should have more fun at an autox (there's a reason it has dominated the one lap of america for the last several years) if you have a heavy foot or drive it at 9 10nths which is much harder to do than driving the miata at 9 10nths. No doubt a lot of driving a high HP heavy car is knowing how to drive it or having patience etc... You can make most any car push and you can make most any car oversteer depending on how it's driven.
There is nothing that angers me more than a pushing pig well maybe a twitchy feather weight LOL. There is always a yin or a yang in every car.
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; Apr 7, 2016 at 12:46 PM.
remember, 300rwhp vs 455fwhp
so maybe more like
2750/300 = 9.17
3600/401 = 8.98
closer race!
source:http://www.hotrod.com/features/1510-...more/#photo-02
so maybe more like
2750/300 = 9.17
3600/401 = 8.98
closer race!
source:http://www.hotrod.com/features/1510-...more/#photo-02
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,672
Likes: 413
From: Charlottesville VA 22901
remember, 300rwhp vs 455fwhp
so maybe more like
2750/300 = 9.17
3600/401 = 8.98
closer race!
source:First Dyno! 2016 Camaro SS Makes All of Its Claimed 455 hp/455 lb-ft, and More!
so maybe more like
2750/300 = 9.17
3600/401 = 8.98
closer race!
source:First Dyno! 2016 Camaro SS Makes All of Its Claimed 455 hp/455 lb-ft, and More!
Even better a single turbo FD with 400 rwhp. BUT watch out for the trans, the diff and the motor. To win you must first finish the race
I plan to be at the track in May with NASA at Hyperfest in a 275 rwhp FD on stock size tires. Should be fun, stay tuned for vids
Must keep the power down to keep the trans and diff from over heating along with everything else LOLPS on a serious note don't discount the 450lbs of torque
PSS spend 15k on that camaro and see what happens
