How to value your FD
10-10-18, 04:51 PM
#1526
This is another thing you and I disagree on along with David who feels the Supra will always be worth a lot more than the FD. The spread is big for two reason. 1st; I believe the Supra is appreciated by HP guys/muscle car guys along with sports car guys or has a bigger audience. The FD is mostly appreciated by sports car guys alone. 2nd; Supply and demand. As the FD supply dries up we will see prices move a lot higher.
David may say the supra is worth 100k more because one just sold for 150 and the highest selling FD is 50 and looking at those two cars he'd be right. I however don't believe the gap is that far apart.
I'm not sure how much reliability adds to the collector market. Having a unique engine, history etc...I believe does though.
I also believe the FD will eventually outpace the Supra because it's the better looking car inside and out, far more interesting car, better performing car and more fun to drive. Most importantly of all though is the size.........or sizewise it's perfection. The supra is BIG and a little awkward looking to my eye and it seems to be getting worse as time goes by where as the FD just gets better and better!
It's all personal preference though so who knows. I'm biased as they come in regard to the FD and have no qualms admitting that so my perception could be WAY OFF or I could be dead wrong about all of this
David may say the supra is worth 100k more because one just sold for 150 and the highest selling FD is 50 and looking at those two cars he'd be right. I however don't believe the gap is that far apart.
I'm not sure how much reliability adds to the collector market. Having a unique engine, history etc...I believe does though.
I also believe the FD will eventually outpace the Supra because it's the better looking car inside and out, far more interesting car, better performing car and more fun to drive. Most importantly of all though is the size.........or sizewise it's perfection. The supra is BIG and a little awkward looking to my eye and it seems to be getting worse as time goes by where as the FD just gets better and better!
It's all personal preference though so who knows. I'm biased as they come in regard to the FD and have no qualms admitting that so my perception could be WAY OFF or I could be dead wrong about all of this
10-10-18, 10:05 PM
#1527
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
What in the hell are we all debating any ways??? Your typical lightly modded fd that is in good condition has been selling for 17-25k for damn near 20 years. Facts.
the cars we all own fit in that category. SO WHO CARES!
I think we should agree to end this
museum quality pieces are going up slightly and starting to catch Main Street appeal. Great. But they will never be a Supra and none of us own that anyways. Again. Who cares
the cars we all own fit in that category. SO WHO CARES!
I think we should agree to end this
museum quality pieces are going up slightly and starting to catch Main Street appeal. Great. But they will never be a Supra and none of us own that anyways. Again. Who cares
10-11-18, 10:02 AM
#1528
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What in the hell are we all debating any ways??? Your typical lightly modded fd that is in good condition has been selling for 17-25k for damn near 20 years. Facts.
the cars we all own fit in that category. SO WHO CARES!
I think we should agree to end this
museum quality pieces are going up slightly and starting to catch Main Street appeal. Great. But they will never be a Supra and none of us own that anyways. Again. Who cares
the cars we all own fit in that category. SO WHO CARES!
I think we should agree to end this
museum quality pieces are going up slightly and starting to catch Main Street appeal. Great. But they will never be a Supra and none of us own that anyways. Again. Who cares
FD prices are up at least 20 percent the last 2 years
95s are worth more than 93s
Museum quality FD prices are up 50 to 100 percent depending upon mileage
World debt is a major economic problem
The Supra is worth more than the FD
Anything else I missed that is not worth debating or caring about because it's a FACT!
FDS tops Hagerty's collector cars this fall...
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2018/10/10/hottest-25-collector-vehicles-fall-2018?utm_source=SFMC&utm_medium=email&utm_content= 18_October_10_HagertyNews
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2018/10/10/hottest-25-collector-vehicles-fall-2018?utm_source=SFMC&utm_medium=email&utm_content= 18_October_10_HagertyNews
Supra will always have a much wider market. It takes someone mechanically inclined and dedicated to want to keep an FD running. Almost all Supras you see for sale are running and driving, badly modded or not. A Supra you can just get in and drive, even if you are misfiring or sputtering down the road burning oil.
10-11-18, 11:04 AM
#1529
Yep the PIA/reliability thing with tracking an FD is big hurdle for sure.
BUT, Nothing drives like an FD which makes jumping ship REALLY HARD!
The GT3 is a close second for driving experience but like any fast car it's expensive.
I'll likely just keep running p cars/and the FD when it's working (would like to try a GT4 next) until something else interesting comes along.
BUT, Nothing drives like an FD which makes jumping ship REALLY HARD!
The GT3 is a close second for driving experience but like any fast car it's expensive.
I'll likely just keep running p cars/and the FD when it's working (would like to try a GT4 next) until something else interesting comes along.
Yup, PITA though the RX7 is, my qualifications for its replacement are pretty high:
1. Needs to match the straight line speed/acceleration of my car @ 15psi
2. Needs to handle as well, or have equal potential
3. Can't be physically any bigger than the FD
4. I don't want to see 20 of them at every Cars and Coffee
About the only thing I can even think of is a turbo Elise with another 150 hp, and I doubt that costs me much less in maintenance.
1. Needs to match the straight line speed/acceleration of my car @ 15psi
2. Needs to handle as well, or have equal potential
3. Can't be physically any bigger than the FD
4. I don't want to see 20 of them at every Cars and Coffee
About the only thing I can even think of is a turbo Elise with another 150 hp, and I doubt that costs me much less in maintenance.
I find it hard to jump ship from the FD because I still love the car, the driving experience, and I'm afraid if I leave the platform I won't be able to justify prices to get back into it and I may regret that. That being said, it's a pain in the *** to keep tracking them this hard. I also feel guilty about tracking a rare FD sometimes.
My requirements for a replacement would be:
1. Has to be faster on track than the FD
2. Has to be more reliable on track than the FD
3. I need to enjoy driving it
4. $50k or less.....that cuts out all GT3s unfortunately, but I've got kids and can't be entirely selfish
In my mind that pretty much leaves a C6 Z06 as the best option, but since they're going down in value and the FD keeps going up time is in my favor. So if I put my car for sale next spring what should I reasonably expect for it? I think it'd take around $35k to make me move from it.
10-11-18, 03:17 PM
#1530
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I'd say I'm sorry for missing the last few pages of discussion....but I'm not. Had work stuff and track fun and that beats political conversations any day.
I find it hard to jump ship from the FD because I still love the car, the driving experience, and I'm afraid if I leave the platform I won't be able to justify prices to get back into it and I may regret that. That being said, it's a pain in the *** to keep tracking them this hard. I also feel guilty about tracking a rare FD sometimes.
My requirements for a replacement would be:
1. Has to be faster on track than the FD
2. Has to be more reliable on track than the FD
3. I need to enjoy driving it
4. $50k or less.....that cuts out all GT3s unfortunately, but I've got kids and can't be entirely selfish
In my mind that pretty much leaves a C6 Z06 as the best option, but since they're going down in value and the FD keeps going up time is in my favor. So if I put my car for sale next spring what should I reasonably expect for it? I think it'd take around $35k to make me move from it.
I find it hard to jump ship from the FD because I still love the car, the driving experience, and I'm afraid if I leave the platform I won't be able to justify prices to get back into it and I may regret that. That being said, it's a pain in the *** to keep tracking them this hard. I also feel guilty about tracking a rare FD sometimes.
My requirements for a replacement would be:
1. Has to be faster on track than the FD
2. Has to be more reliable on track than the FD
3. I need to enjoy driving it
4. $50k or less.....that cuts out all GT3s unfortunately, but I've got kids and can't be entirely selfish
In my mind that pretty much leaves a C6 Z06 as the best option, but since they're going down in value and the FD keeps going up time is in my favor. So if I put my car for sale next spring what should I reasonably expect for it? I think it'd take around $35k to make me move from it.
Depending upon mods, mileage etc... you never know 35k could be possible.
Best of luck with whatever you decide and look forward to more track vids etc....
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Fritz Flynn (10-12-18)
10-12-18, 01:10 PM
#1532
The Ancient
Since the economy and politics are inseparable and we had agreed -- I thought -- not to talk politics, I will not comment on any of the insightful economic observations being made. Fritz and DJ apparently fear a looming Armageddon of inflation and debt defaults and another housing crisis and see that as worse than the actual malaise of the past decade. My take remains that GDP is up, wages are up, and unemployment is at historic 50-year lows and as a result, more people can eat and cloth themselves and take vacations and not need welfare. Most working Americans are feeling pretty good. Many have enough money to be buying cars and driving values upward. The FD has gotten the respect it deserved for decades.
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Fritz Flynn (10-12-18)
10-12-18, 07:02 PM
#1534
Senior Member
Funny little anecdote: I dropped my car off for smog today and when I came back, there was a Ferrari 360 Modena on the dyno. I told the smog guy, "Gee, and I thought my car was cool." He says, "Hah, y'know what's funny? The other guy said the same thing when he saw yours."
It's sentiment like that that shows why these cars are going up so much.
It's sentiment like that that shows why these cars are going up so much.
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10-12-18, 07:03 PM
#1535
Funny little anecdote: I dropped my car off for smog today and when I came back, there was a Ferrari 360 Modena on the dyno. I told the smog guy, "Gee, and I thought my car was cool." He says, "Hah, y'know what's funny? The other guy said the same thing when he saw yours."
It's sentiment like that that shows why these cars are going up so much.
It's sentiment like that that shows why these cars are going up so much.
10-12-18, 10:35 PM
#1536
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Currently have 3 good ones and the only one I wouldn't drive from VA to CA and back is a low mileage VR R2. The other two are sorted out and ready for anything.
Most of the junk FDs I've owned have been single turbos that are poorly setup.
It's not the cars it's the people working on them. Really bad performance shops combined with people that can't afford to do things the right way is what puts FDs on jack stands.
10-13-18, 12:48 AM
#1537
Yes the FD has some reliability issues however none of them involve leaving the owner in constant fear of being stranded unexpectedly. The fact is that stock or stock-ish FD's are very reliable, they start every time, don't overheat, and have no issues getting to their destination.
If you find an FD that can't be used to take a simple drive, then it is either caused by the owner ******* it up or the engine is on the way out.
Last edited by Montego; 10-13-18 at 12:53 AM.
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gmonsen (10-13-18)
10-13-18, 09:56 AM
#1538
One of, if not the nicest FD here in the classifieds right now. I'm calling it a $40k car on BAT, what do y'all think it will fetch here?
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...miles-1130603/
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...miles-1130603/
10-13-18, 01:23 PM
#1539
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One of, if not the nicest FD here in the classifieds right now. I'm calling it a $40k car on BAT, what do y'all think it will fetch here?
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...miles-1130603/
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...miles-1130603/
10-13-18, 02:08 PM
#1540
You are gonna have to excuse me but that is a load of internet hogwash. I have owned my FD for 20 years and it has stranded me twice.The first time the engine experienced carbon lock, the second time a hose split.
Yes the FD has some reliability issues however none of them involve leaving the owner in constant fear of being stranded unexpectedly. The fact is that stock or stock-ish FD's are very reliable, they start every time, don't overheat, and have no issues getting to their destination.
If you find an FD that can't be used to take a simple drive, then it is either caused by the owner ******* it up or the engine is on the way out.
Yes the FD has some reliability issues however none of them involve leaving the owner in constant fear of being stranded unexpectedly. The fact is that stock or stock-ish FD's are very reliable, they start every time, don't overheat, and have no issues getting to their destination.
If you find an FD that can't be used to take a simple drive, then it is either caused by the owner ******* it up or the engine is on the way out.
Whether it's internet hogwash or not, it still affects the general population's opinion of the car which makes most people stay away and has held the value down all these years until now that they are almost all gone. Yes, an FD is reliable if you read all the documentation over the past 20 years on keeping it that way and have the money and skills to execute. The reality is that most people just won't do that.
10-13-18, 07:39 PM
#1541
The Ancient
The stock FD is an enormously reliable motor as long as the basic maintenance is followed. Try not changing the oil regularly in a Porsche. You do have to follow the dictated maintenance. That would seem to be a good idea with any car. And, I don't give a damned what the vast public thinks of it. They do not deserve to own one anyway and certainly would "**** it up". More knowledgeable types will buy all the FD's that are for sale.
Last edited by gmonsen; 10-13-18 at 08:53 PM.
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Montego (10-14-18)
10-13-18, 10:32 PM
#1542
I think what he is saying is that you can do a lot of bad things to a 2jz and it will keep ticking. Just as many bad mechanics and low experienced people use them for swaps. But they get up and running with fewer issues than most have with a simple single turbo upgrade on an fd (let alone years on a 3 rotor swap)
10-14-18, 01:55 AM
#1543
The Ancient
I know what he was saying. My point was that there are or have been a lot of exotics that have issues because of their sophisticated engines. The 2jz is just another BMW straight 6 copy with a turbo. Nothing sophisticated or high tech there. Just a solid motor type that has been around without the turbo for 70 years. No Ferrari-like motor. No rotary-like motor. Our motor is exotic. The 2jz is anything but.
10-14-18, 09:19 AM
#1544
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The thing is, we are talking about why a Supra is worth more. Obviously the people on this forum and people like you and Fritz Flynn have no trouble maintaining an FD but we are a very very small percentage of the population. It's easy to **** up an FD. My point is that it is difficult to **** up a Supra, which is why a higher percentage of them are running.
Whether it's internet hogwash or not, it still affects the general population's opinion of the car which makes most people stay away and has held the value down all these years until now that they are almost all gone. Yes, an FD is reliable if you read all the documentation over the past 20 years on keeping it that way and have the money and skills to execute. The reality is that most people just won't do that.
Whether it's internet hogwash or not, it still affects the general population's opinion of the car which makes most people stay away and has held the value down all these years until now that they are almost all gone. Yes, an FD is reliable if you read all the documentation over the past 20 years on keeping it that way and have the money and skills to execute. The reality is that most people just won't do that.
It's all about #s or supply and demand. FD production #s 13500. Supra probably pretty close but of those only 7k or so were tt cars. Of those 7k likely half were automatics. There are MAYBE 5k US FDs out there running around/drivers. Probably 2k max manual Supra drivers. Do the math. IMO the demand is equal or there are crazy nuts who will spend stupid money for either car. However I believe the FD has and will continue to age better (it's the better looking/by far, performing/more fun to drive etc...car) which means the want factor is greater which is why I believe it's value will move past the supra in 10 years.
1993.5 Model Year
-Fourth Generation Toyota Supra Introduced.
-93.5 Production Numbers:
2,819 Total Supras Sold
1,494 were twin turbos (233 6spd/hardtops, 431 6spd/targas, 830 4spd auto/targas)
1,325 were non-turbos (1,113 targas, 212 hardtops)
1994 Model Year
-Complete Carry-Over from 93.5
-Cal/NY emmissions {optional}
-ALR {auto locking retractors for seat belts}
-Exterior colors: 93.5 -94
040 super white
1A1* anthracite metallic
199* alpine silver
202 black
3L2* renaissance red
752* baltic blue
*clear coat
-94 Production Numbers:
3,488 Total Supras Sold
2,996 were twin turbos (75 6spd/hardtops, 1708 6spd/targas, 1213 4spd auto/targas)
492 were non-turbos (413 targas, 79 hardtops)
1995 Model Year
-CAL/NY/MASS. emissions {optional}
-Rear spoiler on base models{optional}
-Audio systems redesigned.
-"key-off" operation added all models{PW/PL operated after 60 sec of key to off position}
-SE package on non-turbo models
-Exterior colors:
040 super white
1A1* anthracite metallic
199* alpine silver
202 black
3L2* renaissance red
752* baltic blue
*clear coat
-95 Production Numbers:
2,347 Total Supras Sold
806 were twin turbo (18 6spd/hardtops, 526 6spd/targas, 262 4spd auto/targas)
1,541 were non-turbos (495 targas, 1046 hardtops)
1996 Model Year
-Engine management system now OBDII.
-Cloth rear seat replaces vinyl on models without leather
-Tow bar fitting brackets are discontinued
-New exterior color Deep Jewel Green pearl
-Deleted exterior color Anthracite Metallic
-The ABS has been changed to the 2 position solenoid valve type actuator.{less clutter in engine bay}. Changed from a 4-channel ABS to a simpler 3-channel system.
-The TRAC button has the addition of "snow" feature along with the "off" function.
-TRAC system no longer functions in part through the ABS system
Non-turbo only:
-Heated mirrors deleted
-Power seat not available with cloth drivers seat.
-Audio head unit change.
-SE model deleted models for 96 non-turbos
Turbo only:
-All Supra Turbos with 6spd's discontinued
-Supra Turbo Targa's discontinued till Jan 96{jan96-aug96 production}
-Exterior colors:
040 super white
199* alpine silver
202 black
3L2* renaissance red
6P3* deep jewel green pearl
752* baltic blue
*clear coat
-96 Production Numbers:
284 Total Supras Sold
88 were twin turbo (0 6spd/hardtops, 0 6spd/targas, 88 4spd auto/targas)
196 were non-turbos (168 targas, 28 hardtops)
1997 Model Year
-The multi-reflector type headlamps are adopted. Parking lamp removed and moved into front turn signal housing. Dark Grey background.
-The re-design of the front turn signals [parking lamp added, lens clear]
-Front bumper cover [a single horizontal bar added to center of large radiator opening]
-Rear tail lamps have been changed. [dark grey background].
-The front seats have been changed to integrated headrest type without changing their basic design. (Harness Belts will no longer pass through)
-Standard High Solar Energy Absorbing Glass {HSEA}
-Heated Mirrors deleted {all models}
-Instrument panels, door switch panels, console shift panel, painted argent color.
-6-speed Getrag Transmission again available on Twin Turbos
-Longer shift handle{.75in} 6 speed only.
-An aluminum radiator is added to the turbo models to save weight.
-Gas cap hanger on gas door Standard
-Torsen Limited-Slip now an option on Automatic equipped twin turbos
-The Brake Master Cylinder diameter has been increased on the TT models.
-Parking brake system up-graded on NA models for [ rear rotors and parking brake change]
-Various areas of the suspension system have been revised to improve riding comfort, in addition, this provides excellent stability, and controllability, i.e., (I think this just means different springs and shocks) Brace rod for rear suspension has been relocated, and engine shock absorber was changed from mono tube to twin tube gas filled absorber type.
-Reinforcements and gussets have been newly added to the bottom of the front and center pillars.
-Energy absorbing pads are provided on the door trim, at the upper shoulder and lower arm rest areas.
-Sunvisors in vinyl material instead of cloth from earlier years.{easy to clean}
-Vinyl parking brake handle.
-Sound absorbing material is newly provided in the front pillar and in the rear quarter panels to reduce road noise.
-The material of sound absorbing material used in the trim and garnish has been changed.
-The illuminated entry system has been discontinued.
-A 1-sensor type air bag system has been adopted.
-"Supra" script add to passenger side aig bag cover.
-The cruise control system has a new motor type actuator, functions have been changed.{less clutter in engine bay}
-Added the word "turbo" next to "Supra" script on deck lid.
-Polished alloy wheels with chrome center caps, valve stems, caps and weights [TT]. New design on center caps [NA models].
-’97 only’ offered "Anniversary Edition" Included Badging on fenders and embroidered floor mats.
-The word "turbo" added to the gold kits.
-97 Exterior colors:
040 super white
199*alpine silver
202 black
3L2*renaissance red
6P3*deep jewel green pearl
8L5*royal sapphire pearl [RSP]
*=clear coat
-97 Production Numbers:
1,621 Total Supras Sold
1,177 were twin turbos (0 Hardtops, 768 6spd/Targas, 409 4spd Auto/Targas)
444 were non-turbos (126 Hardtops, 318 Targas)
1998 Model Year
-A "3 spoke" design steering wheel replaced the previous "4 spoke" model.
-Rear spoiler now standard on ALL models {n/a-tt}.
-VVTi - new for non-turbo models.
-Stereo Head Unit redesigned yet again.
-Webing removed from around the lug nuts to reduce wheel weight slightly
-98 Exterior colors:
040 super white
1B9 quick silver
202 black
3L2*renaissance red
6Q7 imperial jade mica
8L5*royal sapphire pearl[RSP]
*=clear coat
-98 Production Numbers:
~680 Total Supras Produced
~416 were twin turbos (0 hardtops, ~279 6spd/targas, ~137 4spd auto/targas)
~264 were non-turbos (~36 hardtops, ~228 Targas)
1999 Model Year
-Supra no longer sold in the United States
2002 Model Year
-Supra production stopped in Japan
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; 10-14-18 at 09:24 AM.
10-14-18, 09:27 AM
#1545
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Nice example of a supra. If FD it would sell for high 30s to low 40s. I have no idea what this car will sell for but if the supra is all that then it should go for 75k plus.
https://bringatrailer.com/toyota/supra/
PS Just looked at other supra sales on BAT and lets just say the FD is really not that far away in terms of current value.
https://bringatrailer.com/toyota/supra/
PS Just looked at other supra sales on BAT and lets just say the FD is really not that far away in terms of current value.
10-14-18, 10:52 AM
#1549
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no doubt the Supra is worth more today and may always be the more valuable collector car. They are both great and likely along with the nsx will remain elite Japanese collector cars from the 90s.
10-14-18, 02:05 PM
#1550
In addition to being a stout engine, Toyota a built lot of 2JZs. For years you could get take-out 2JZ setups (including ECU and wiring) really cheap from all the sedans that were getting scrapped in Japan. There's not much risk in blowing up a 2JZ engine or buying a rolling chassis due to all the spare OEM parts out there. Converting an automatic or non-turbo Supra (or other 2JZ-based cars) to a manual-trans turbo setup can be done for really cheap, especially if you're willing to use the less-desirable 5-speed transmissions.
I'm torn about seeing prices for our cars going up. It's nice that people are starting to recognize they are so special, but I wouldn't have bought my RX7 at today's prices. I'm tempted to cash out and sell mine but I haven't found something that seems like a good replacement.
I'm torn about seeing prices for our cars going up. It's nice that people are starting to recognize they are so special, but I wouldn't have bought my RX7 at today's prices. I'm tempted to cash out and sell mine but I haven't found something that seems like a good replacement.
Last edited by scotty305; 10-14-18 at 02:09 PM.