jdonnell

iTrader: (1)

Is there a reason to use ZDDP? I read it has been removed from typical oils, and ZDDP serves as a protective barrier between metals primarily on flat tappet type engines. I know we don't have tappets, but wondered if it would help to improve apex seal longevity.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

There is a good thread on this...somewhere. The thrust of the thread was that compression was improving over time while using this as an additive.

I have a group of Porsche 928 friends that think this is very important. Most of them use Delvac or other Heavy Duty Diesel oils since the ZDDP levels have not been reduced for that application. 15W-40 is the weight.

I started using Delvac at my last oil change in both my 87 gxl and my 90 vert.

Here is a link to a Mobiloil site that shows specs for mobil 1
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf

I think the 928 guys try to have 1200 ppm minimum on both zinc and phosphorus.


Scroll down to the bottom and look at the levels in the motorcycle oils.

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

Torco still puts oil in actual automotive oils, and if you search around there is a list of what over the counter oils contain zddp and how much. Also, Torco offers a zddp additive to "fortify" your oil with.
I am not sure I would agree it helps apex seal life unless you are using the OMP and not using an external reservoir to feed the engine tw-stroke oil.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Here is the thread:

you need to know about REFORMULATED OIL!!!! REVISITED AGAIN JULY 08

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...highlight=zinc

Post from the thread:

jdonnell

iTrader: (1)

Valvoline VR-1 is commercially/readily available with ZDDP in conventional oil.

I have to go to work so I'll read the threads when I get home, but I am not familiar with Delvac? Is it easy to get?

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

All oil has ZDDP at some level. Recent revisions to oil specs to reduce levels of ZDDP have been made in deference to helping the OEM catalytic converters live longer. This was at the request of the EPA in concert with Auto Manufacturers who have to guarantee longevity of the OEM cats. ZDDP degrades the catalyst life, thus the need to reduce ZDDP.

The problem is that although modern engines are now designed for the lower levels of ZDDP, older engines are not. This is not a problem if you are selling new cars. It is only a problem if you are running an older car.


Delvac, Rotella and other heavy-duty diesel oils are available at Autozone, orielly Auto Walmart etc. It is 15W-40. It is actually pretty cheap.

Racing oils, usually synthetic, labelled as for off road use will contain high levels of ZDDP.




Interestingly, STP oil treatment contains high levels of ZDDP...

daviddeep

iTrader: (4)

I've read a bunch of these ZDDP threads and found them interesting. Now I have something new to worry about...

Are there any negatives to using a heavy-duty diesel oil such as Rotella or Delvac?

Some people claim that a ZDDP additive such as STP or ZDDPlus are harmful if you use too much, or don't really blend well with your existing motor oil leading to uneven distribution. Is this true?

How important is restoring ZDDP for a street-driven NA FC?

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

Mobil 1 5w-40 turbo diesel truck; looks to have nice and high levels of zddp.... and its full synthetic.

I hate oil threads. lol

jjwalker

I run Valvoline VR1 20w-50.

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

I run Redline oils or Valvoline. I used to run Mobil, but they keep changing the formulation so its hard to know what your getting. I have also had/seen very good results with Brad Penn oils.
I do not think a rotary will care much about ZDDP unless your using the OMP without an external feed and are so burning engine oil. What I have seen is that using the Redline or similar full synthetics and injecting two-stroke oil in a street car engine so far has shown remarkably low wear in a variety of engine applications.
The syth oils I have used- ENEOS, Redline, Torco- over the years have all shown very low wear regardless of engine type. In a 10K rpm 1275 MG race engine (roller rocker) using conventional oils we would have visible wear when the engine was torn down before the runoffs. In this engine we changed the oil when the engine was rebuilt, so figure 10-15 hours on the engine. Changing to Redline showed no visible and little measurable wear over the entire season. Others have had similar results.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Good info. Do you mean logically that an engine that does burn engine oil should/may respond favorably to a higher ZDDP content oil?

Question: In your experience, have synthetic oils shown any significant combustion deposits? Specifically in those engines burning engine oil on a conventional OMP setup?

Question 2: What do you think about the j9fd3s quote above regarding bearing wear in the post I quoted above?

I know I am asking for your opinion. I believe your opinion reflects deeper experience than most of us posting here.

Thanks,

-Jack

nycgps

iTrader: (4)

1. most carbon deposit came from the gas we pump, not oil. and remember we are "forced" to have Ethanol just couple years ago. and we all know what Ethanol brings us.

2. I think it has a lot to do with as the car getting older, more "idiots" can get it for cheaper and we all know what idiots means. for example, they don't change their oil. ZDDP also plays an important role in this. This is also why I always prefer oils with "older" API rating, like SJ instead of SM. Sometimes I want to use Racing oil because like the others said, it has very high amounts of ZDDP. many people got freak out if you tell them "Oh its a RACING OIL", but they call it Racing oil because it does not meet the API spec. Does that mean its bad? nope, if you have too much of something you still fail the test. ZDDP is one of them.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

For years, I have read and heard that synthetic oils would cause carbon build up. Here is a man who has extensive experience inside rotaries using different set ups and synthetic oils. I want to hear his opinion based on his experience.

nycgps

iTrader: (4)

Synthetic does not cause carbon build up. Its the owner.

Mazda is so afraid of Synthetic oil for years because the time when Mobil1 ate their cheap seals alive, resulting in massive oil leak. After that they just "don't recommend" Synthetic oil. At least in the US. It was totally Mazda's fault for using cheap ... grr I was trying to say "non-compatible" seals and Mazda spent tons of money to fix those engines.

Don't forget Mazda Japan sells Synthetic oil for Rotary Engine. There is nothing magic about Mazda's oil. its just ... oil. Its a PAO based oil.

but in US, just let the way it is, its always better to say "we don't recommend" than saying yes then when something f-ed up again and they have to pay for the damage.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

I have read everything you typed expressed in dozens of different posts on this forum and other forums, except for the 'Mobil1 eating the cheap seals' part. Maybe you are repeating what has been written by others, maybe you know from personal experience.

I don't know from personal experience. I only 'know' what has been written by others.

How bout letting D Walker weigh in?

nycgps

iTrader: (4)

I wasn't even born when the incident happen. I just got those from people who is old enough and seen some pictures of it. it was pretty nasty.

We wait for D walker to come

or just ask RG, i think he knows about it.

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

Wayyyy back in the day, there was a lot of myths about synth oil, including that it would not "burn right" and so should not be used in rotaries, and that it "ate seals" or caused an engine to leak oil. Most of this is simple mythology with a small amount of truth to it. Synth oil burns at a higher temp, so there is a very slight possibility of some sort of carbon issue or a tuning issue from incomplete combustion. I honestly have little experience here because I do not try and burn synthetic oils.

The fuel indeed does cause a lot of the carbon deposits, but so does the oil we burn. This is why I prefer to inject two-stroke oil from a reservior or premix. The benefits of water/alcohol injection for carbon control/removal are well documented.

Injecting oil from an external reservior or pre-mixing allows us to use a synthetic oil like Redline with no concerns.

Nowhere has it been proven that lack of zddp has anything to do with bearing wear. The issue with lack of ZDDP is where you have low oil flow/pressure and metal parts that slide over or against each other, such as cams/lifters. Rotary engines just really do not have these issues. Yes yes I know- the apex seals/side seals/corner seals right? Well, synths like Redline tend to have a higher "cling" factor and are able to penetrate the metal pores and reduce wear, which is the real issue we have here. Using an actual two-stroke oil also helps here, as it is meant to burn and lubricate while doing so. Again I use Redline two-stroke oil, but I have also had good results with AGIP and Silkolene.

nycgps

iTrader: (4)

yep, there were so many myths to the Synthetic thing.

From time to time I still get the "OMG Your engine gonna blow with Synthetic"

but ...



PAO based Synthetic oil. it does not have any API service rating (it didn't say on the site, so I assume there is none) 0w-30

My opinion is that, oil is oil, Mazda don't make them. they resell them, from who? no idea. but OEM love to repackage stuff and sell it at a premium. In Japan couple of Oil company use PAO as their base stock (Eneos use Ester, which is Group V, just like Redline)

maybe its Idemitsu ? who knows.

my point is that Synthetic cause no harm to Rotary engine, its just a myth. Even the ate seals alive incident was Mazda's fault. it has been fixed and no longer a problem.

Mazda also market an Oil for Rx-7, its a 10w40 oil called Rotary1. the picture is so small and it does not tell you what kind of oil it is. I assume thats NLA.

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

Eneos (Nippon Oil) makes a lot of the factory fill oils for Honda, Toyota, Mazda, and Mitsubishi. Someof these oils are not just re-badged but actually formulated to specific requirements (then repackaged by the manufacturer )I have also heard Redline makes a gearbox oil for Mitsubishi but I have doubts. Nippon Oil may make the oil to Mazda specifications using a PAO base, but who knows but Mazda?

FWIW I am a huge believer in 0 weight oils making a difference in engine life by reducing cold start wear.

daviddeep

iTrader: (4)

Getting back to the original topic, are FC owners using additives like ZDDPlus? Or is everyone running synthetic, race oil or heavy-duty diesel oil now? Is this recommended for lighter duty street-only applications?

nycgps

iTrader: (4)

The Renesis Oil is not API certified so I assume that might be a special formulation.

but my opinion is that oil is oil there is nothing magical about, it could be just one of Nippon oil's Racing Oil line with Mazda's Logo on it

As for 0 weight oil, it should help something. oil's additive need some time to get into operating temperature ... and depends on how cold it is outside sometimes it takes at least 15 minutes to get the oil to 150 or so degrees ... I think the problem is that most people ignore this simple thing and beat the crap outa their car too early result in premature wear ...

nycgps

iTrader: (4)

I always use Synthetic. 0w40 mobile 1, Royal Purple 10w40/20w50, Red Line 20w50.

Never tired Diesel oil cuz I don't see the point of it. That's just me tho.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

I would bet that more people on this forum use Castrol 20W-50 dino oil than anything else.

daviddeep

iTrader: (4)

I'm using Castrol GTX dino oil myself, but I'd switch to something else or begin using ZDDP additives if there was some strong evidence supporting it.

What about the claim that excessive amounts of ZDDP can clog injectors?

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

There is no strong evidence of anything. Oil preference is a belief system and bears no basis in fact. Witness nycps who sez oil is oil nothing magical about it, but uses the most expensive synthetics he can. (not busting on you nycps!) This is exactly why oil threads (or oil filter threads) alway degrade into many pages of opinion. Some opinions are based on attempted logic. Frequently that 'logic' is flawed and is based on someone else's opinion taken as fact.

I prefer to base my opinions on some scientific evidence. I am interested in oil. Even though I am trained in biological sciences, have quite a bit of college level chemistry, some physics etc, I am woefully ill-equipped to believe in anything to do with oil.

Here is my stance on oil: I change it. I filter it with the largest area filter that fits the car. I try to use good stuff. I recognize that a large portion of the oil I put in the rotary gets burned up. The rest ends up in the recycle tank. It is a consumable, a disposable; Since I also had a some training in college level and real-world Economics, I buy oil on price/quality. There is no magic in the bottle.