JonEQuest

I have searched and it is pretty vague, everyone talks about how to gut a TII and swap into a NA, I don`t want to do that. I have an NA and want to just add the factory turbo to it, besides the manifold and turbo what other parts would I need or have to fabricate?

John

Z3r0

theres a pretty good write up in the 2nd Gen archives, I am also in teh process of collecting parts for my turbo'ed N/A project...

thedguy

it's in the archives up at the top.

joep

the archives at the top is just one big arguement. I am hoarding tII parts to soon put it on my na. You need the turbo, oil lines, bov, intercooler, my turbo is water cooled and im just gonna try and experiment till i get it right

JonEQuest

So I can use my same ECU as long as I don`t go to high on boost, I plan to only go to 6-10 max since it is a higher compression motor anyway. I just can`t stand how slow a S4 vert. is.

John

DC350

I've been going through the same thing as you!

And now think that the N/A to turbocharged N/A's are just a **** load of parts thrown together to make it quicker. In realism its a high compression motor not made for boost. Just get the TII engine.

scathcart

Agreed. An NA motor with a turbo strapped on it is pretty ghetto. I have about as much respect for it as throwing in a chev 350 out of a 1979 pick-up truck. Yes, it takes some respectable knowledge to set-up, but what a waste of time and money for a bastard car.

And before Aaron or Bambam come around talking about how well their car runs ... IIRC, neither is running properly right now. One's turbo is barfing oil, and the other's clutch is fried. And neither comes mildly close to the performance or aftermarket value of a mildly modded TII.

scathcart

Oh no... not another ghetto car to be posting about how their N/A Turbo car is not running right.

It's kinda like peeing in the pool b/c you are too cheap to buy a heater...

DC350

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Lets get a few facts straight, shall we?

1. My clutch is fried. It is also the original factory NA clutch with 250,000+ KM on it. As far as I'm concerned, it has had a long and fruitfull life. It is also oil soaked from a transmission input shaft seal failure, and has been slighly slipping ever since I bought the car.

2. Mildly modded TII? Define mildly modded. When my car was running at 10PSI (before the exhaust clogged...my mistake...running WAY too rich) it would eat FDs.

3. ANY mod on a car is ghetto. If I put in a 20B, is that ghetto?

4. It cost me more to turbocharge my car than it would have to buy a TII. NOT the cheap way out.

To the original poster, read my thread in the Archives. Read the WHOLE thing.

JonEQuest

Is it not the same Mazda car with slight differences?
How come Camden runs superchargers for years on high compression motors with no problem?
"Just get the TII engine"? Sure no problem, rip out my good motor, find a wrecked TII that is probably in need of service anyway, (otherwise the owner would have fixed the car). Then I have to somehow transport that P.O.S. to my nice neighborhood (neighbors will LOVE me).....Swap that tired old motor/transmission into my car, (oil running down my driveway).......with some driveshaft hassle I keep hearing about, then swap engine harness, ECU, etc., etc., + the endless little **** that pops up after a major swap...... then I got a bunch of oily parts filling my garage that I have to get rid of........ (boy this sure is smarter than just buying a FD).....then I try to resell my good 13B, and have to work out the hassle of that when guys from 1500 miles away call about the motor and want to meet in B.F.E,... and don`t show up!.......... Look I have a convertible, I want it to be faster, not win at the track, I want a streetable, but fun car that can pass well in traffic and hold it`s own. If I had a regular body, I would clean it up sell it and buy a TII, but since I have a vert. I want to dio the easiest beef-up possible. If someone locally was selling a TII dirt cheap, I MIGHT look into that, but it would still be too big a hassle IMO.

John
88 Vert.
4 round headlight mod. (homemade, final pics coming soon)
Corksport kit in the mail (I hope)
Wide fender flares (in the mail)
New rims tires (crome but NOT ghetto)
***My 3rd gen wheels are for sale***
New top (what a P.I.A. to do)
Working on S4 tailight customizing for a Honda S2000 look.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Just do it the right way.

Suds7

I agree with revvin, I am doing a T2 swap (haltech controlled, n/a driveline) and it is the best way to do it, just think, you are saving a dying breed

BadBoy

i think everyone with a vert wants it a bit faster and yet still want it to drive well on the road...rather than win at the tracks. i am all for it and am looking into any means possible as well. trying to figure out if 20b is an option also. ah well the search continues.

Fred

DC350

Amen

Instead of making a big *** hassle of doing a TII swap with oil running down your drive way and all that crap. Why not just buy a j-spec motor (whichever series your car is) and put it in with the N/A driveline yeah, sure it won't be able to hold 400 hp but it will definetly suit your needs.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Well i was refering to the complete swap, TII drivetrain too.

DC350

If he wants to make his vert faster. i think that 250 hp is pretty good

Bridgeported

How bad do you want to keep the convertable?

You could probably sell the 'vert and buy a TII for about the same price! Maybe even have a few hundred left over if you shop around!

TII's rule... Get a TII and then when you are ready to modify it to make it really fast (if you ever want to) you already have the right car, engine, suspension, and drivetrain to do it.

Bambam7

Wooahh..... did scathcart earlier just bash my car???
This was a big project, with a lot of custom work, It's bound to have some little details to fix after.
Anyways, my car is running amazing. I can't beleive how fast it is. I see 8 psi in first and second, about 9 in third, and up to 12 in fourth! (Safe so far- crossing my fingers!)It is a rocket, 13's ET without a doubt if I could just get some traction (on brand new z rated 225's no less!!).
I've just backed the timing off a few degrees, and am running on midgrade (89.5 octane) fuel. Playing with the S-afc so that the o2sensor voltage never dips belowe about .83 under full boost, I don't get any detonation. (I did at first, with 87 octane, a leaner fuel map, and advanced timing, oops!)

The oil/smoking problem was fixed after a day or two, I just hooked a vacuum line with a check valve up to the oil filler neck, so the oil pan in under vacuum, helping the turbo oil return line flow. It wasn't the seals at all!

My only problem now is that the "high temp" gasket material I cut for between the turbo manifold and spacer blew out in about 5 spots while showing a few friends what the turbo does!
Luckily I just found a spare metal one.

I don't know if it's harder to turbo and N/A, or swap in a TII engine/drivetrain. I just wanted to keep my engine since it's street ported, with 3mm seals, and freshly rebuilt. Better then gambling on a used engine.
WIth a TII engine, you could run more boost because of the lower compression, and also the tranny can handle more power.
The turbo'd N/A has way better low end torque though, and has more power when not in boost. The higher compression spools the turbo up REAL quick too!

scathcart

Did you expect a stock clutch to hold up to a boosted motor?

2. Mildly modded TII? Define mildly modded. When my car was running at 10PSI (before the exhaust clogged...my mistake...running WAY too rich) it would eat FDs.
Did you ever get timeslips? How about put the car on a dyno for a proof of power?
Mildly modded... exhaust, clutch, intake, CDI, rad, e-fan, etc.
GOOD FMIC, aftermarket turbo, stand-alone, tec. do not fall into this category.

3. ANY mod on a car is ghetto. If I put in a 20B, is that ghetto?
Buying high quality parts that were designed for your engine and vehicle is not ghetto.
A PVC "home depot" TID is ghetto.
Ghetto means cheap. Peeing in a pool to heat it instead of buying a heater is ghetto.

4. It cost me more to turbocharge my car than it would have to buy a TII. NOT the cheap way out.
Congrats. For some reason, I'm not impressed. There's something about someone throwing away money that makes me want to say "Why?" instead of "Wow".

So let's see... if it was more expensive and "kills FD's", your car will be worth more than mine, and run a faster timeslip? Car to wager money on that? We can meet in saskatchewan.
Sean Cathcart
1990 TII

Project84

I did some research on the subject of boosting N/A rotary engines, and I've heard of more than a few people boosting them to 20+psi. I haven't seen one myself, so I'm not claiming that to be fact. I have talked to and gotten PMs and e-mail from people explaining how they set up there motor. This, however is fact. Its the compression ratio for all the rotary engines shipped to the U.S. since 1974

Engine year compression
12A 76-85 9.44
13B 74-78 9.25
13B 84-85 9.45
13B N/A 86-88 9.44
13BT 86-88 8.54
13B N/A 89-92 9.74
13BT 89-92 9.04
13BT/T 93-95 9.04


If you schedule the proper amount of fuel to be delivered for the amount of compressed air presented to the manifold, and spark timing is set correctly, you can boost a N/A motor. There is no significant difference between the 9.04:1 compression ratio of the turbocharged engines from 89-95 and the N/A engines of 86-88 with a ratio of 9.44:1 Its all in the tuning. There are slight differences in the engine components. TII's are thicker round the dowels, have higher oil pump pressure, and increased oil injection. After asking around, I have been told that these slight differences don't gain the TII an advantage of the N/A setup until you get up towards 400hp.
Overall, its up to the builder as to whether or not you want to use an N/A motor, TII, turbocharger, supercharger, or Nitrous Oxide. Its all just a means to an end: Getting more air so you can use more fuel to get more power.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

No, not at all. As I said, my clutch was original and already quite worn before I started the project. I knew it would need to be replaced soon.

Unfortunately, the only timeslips I have are from after the exhaust clogged. They show mid 15s...slower than my car was without the turbo.

Have not dyno'd yet for two reasons. Dyno day was cancelled, and a clogged exhaust. No point until I get the new exhaust on there. But of course, at that point the engine will also be quite ported...

Oh christ, here we go again. I will use the TID example. First of all, there is no TID made for turbocharged NA cars. This is for obvious reasons. And I believe there are very few (if any) aftermarket TIDs available in the US/Canada for the TII. So the only choice is to make it myself. Now, the decision came down to making it out of nice shiny stainless, or ABS pipe. Stainless would be nothing but a heat soak, and quite a bit heavier than the ABS. Not to mention that machining and welding it would be annoying. Price was NEVER a consideration at any part of this project. I chose ABS because it had a proven track record in FCs, was available, and had significant advantages over stainess (or other metal).

Pineapple Racing 6 port sleeves are pretty cheap. Are they ghetto? So cheap = ghetto? I bought my rims and tires slightly used for a significant savings over new...Does that make them ghetto?


I was not trying to impress you, simply inform you of the facts. And I certainly didn't throw my money away...not even close. Who are you to determine how I should modify my car? Does it impact your life in some unforseen way? The knowledge, experience and performance I gained with this project were more than worth the cost.

My car is worth more to me than yours is. Isn't that what matters? I don't ever plan to sell it.

I will be posting some respectable timeslips in the spring. As for your challange, um, there's no way I'm driving 1000KM to settle a stupid Internet argument.

What's your problem anyway? Why the hostility? You don't like what I've done with my car...that's fine. Do you have to bring it out into the open?

You have lotsa' naws on your car. I don't like that. I believe it is a hack. Do I go around posting that opinion? No, I don't. Your car does not effect my life in any way, and frankly I don't care about what you do with it (just keep the V8s away).

scathcart

>No, not at all. As I said, my clutch was original and >already quite worn before I started the project. I knew >it would need to be replaced soon.
I'm sorry, but I think it is silly to drive a car that you know is going to fail.

>Unfortunately, the only timeslips I have are from after >the exhaust clogged. They show mid 15s...slower than >my car was without the turbo.
So how do you know it was going to kill FD's? What FD did you run? Does he have a timeslip to show he was running correctly?

>Pineapple Racing 6 port sleeves are pretty cheap. Are >they ghetto? So cheap = ghetto?
Cheap by relative comparison. Didn;t think I had to clarify that... but....
Making your own auxilary port sleeves for $3 out of JB weld would be the ghetto version.

>I bought my rims and tires slightly used for a >significant savings over new...Does that make them >ghetto?
Buying a used part, if it was high quality to begin with, does not make something ghetto.
Allow me to clarify: Cheaply made and looking of resulting quality.
I have seen some fantastic pieces made at home for low amounts of cash, but the majority of home-made replica parts are of pretty poor quality.
And an ABS plastic intake is always ghetto.

>I was not trying to impress you, simply inform you of >the facts. And I certainly didn't throw my money >away...not even close.
Indeed... and all I was doing was informing the original poster of the facts. Neither turbo-NA car is running properly. FACT.

>Who are you to determine how I should modify my >car?
I didn't tell you how to modify your call. But due to free will, can have an opinion on it.

>Does it impact your life in some unforseen way? The >knowledge, experience and performance I gained with >this project were more than worth the cost.
So you're going to chalk it all up to a learning experience? I don't need to blow money to learn about a car.

>My car is worth more to me than yours is. Isn't that >what matters? I don't ever plan to sell it.
A car is only worth as much as the amount you could sell it for.
I could sell mine for $10K+, without a doubt, to someone who knew about RX-7s. You would never see that, unless you sold it to a current 16-year-old honda boy.
Personal worth... well, My car is personally worth more to me than yours is as well. The difference is, mine is also worth more financially, and more desired.
I like driving a desired car.

>I will be posting some respectable timeslips in the >spring. As for your challange, um, there's no way I'm >driving 1000KM to settle a stupid Internet argument.
I look forward to seeing those.
Stupid internet bet? I was hoping to race for some coin, and prove to some of the forum members whether turbo-ing an NA was a lucrative idea.
You can pick up an 87 TII for $4000, and have parts that are MADE for your car available. How can you possibly recommend this?

>What's your problem anyway? Why the hostility? You >don't like what I've done with my car...that's fine. Do >you have to bring it out into the open?
I posted what I thought of turbo-NA swaps. Don't like it? Add me to your forever-growing ignore list.
Won't be long before you have all of the turbo owners on your ignore list.

>You have lotsa' naws on your car. I don't like that. I >believe it is a hack.
Ok. That's not a new opinion at all. Wouldn't blame you for posting it. I have my reasons, ones of which seem lost on a few.
I don't really worry about what someone who calls it "naws" says. Many low-slip drag racer's run Nitrous oxide... and those that don;t have high respect for it. For some reason, I rank their opinion a little higher than the 16 year old ricers on this forum.

JusRollin

Well your going to need a quad injector setup or bigger injectors to keep up with the turbo. your going to need alot of custom piping for oil flow and such. A boost controller Blow off Valve Possibly a pop off valve Maybe a waste gate ( I've never quite figured out how these work yet) custom exhuast piping from the block on down to the y pipe unless your straight piping. Also a boost controller timing retard or ignition voltage retard, a boost guage, oil intercooler, 2 or 3 Bar MAP sensor depending on the boost your running 4 wire O2 sensor just to add to performance. You might want to bore out the air inlets on your throttle body so it creates less air intake restriction. a 4 core radiator with dual electric fan setup to run off a switch ( might want to also add an electrice fan to the oil intercooler) a Turbo Timer to keep your car runnign for 5 minutes after you park it so you don't burn up and Krusty fie your oil. basically ALOT of work and ALOT of money.. but the performance gains and such IMO would be worth it.

And by the way i'm 17 year's old you young'un hater! and Ipurchased a 1987 RX-7 SE N/A with a TII tranny and driveshaft ( driveshaft wasn't in it for length reasons but i have it shortened and welded now) from the 86 year. I also want to turbo charge my N/A rotary for the simple fact that the SE doesn't come Turboharged and would make it a rather rare car. My plan is to have a seperate piped header so i can twin turbo charge it with T-25's at 2.5" with a dual 2.5" combining to a 3" downpipe hooked up to 3" exhuast a heavy duty oil pump oil intercooler turbo timer boost guage 3 bar Map sensor Blow off valve ( so I can prolong the life of the turbo's) pop off valve ( so i don't overboost) with street porting also a custom intake with CAI oversized injectors and an E6K Haltech EMS, MSD Blaster Ignition coils. RB aircraft aluminum rotor housings. but these are going to be after an extended period of time and done one at a time. the first being the aluminum air craft rotor housings. and i'm pretty sure you know how i would do it step by step over a period of about 3 years.. or after alot of overtime work for 2 years..

JusRollin

BUMP!