antnicuk

I am building a new engine for my Series 5 Turbo II. I will be using a 1996 FD E Shaft and oil pressure regs front and rear. I also want to fit a set of stock FD oil coolers.

The FD oil cooler pipe connects to the oil filter mounting plate whereas the TII connects at the bottom of the back plate. Is there any problem with blocking the lower banjo bolt hole on the back plate and using the FD oil filter mount plate, it would make life easier with fitting the stock FD steel oil cooler lines which are shaped to connect at the top of the engine.

NZConvertible

The FC oil cooler is better than the FD oil coolers, so why would you do this?

antnicuk

is it better than 2 fd coolers?, is that definately the case? surely the FD would have better cooling than and 25 year old car with less power.............

The other rumour i have heard is that the T2 oil cooler doesnt like the higher pressure of the FD regs

NZConvertible

Definitely. You only have to compare their dimensions and capacity to see. FD oil coolers are tiny. The FC's is one of the biggest fitted to a mass-produced car. It's effectiveness in high-power street FC's is proven.

You would think so wouldn't you.

The oil cooler's fine, it's the engine that doesn't like it. 110psi is too much for the stock oil system design, and oil gets pushed past the oil control rings into the combustion chambers where it's burnt. Get the 80psi OPR from Racing Beat instead.

http://www.racingbeat.com/resultset....rtNumber=11810

antnicuk

110 psi!!! , my oil system shouldnt run that much, stock FD regs and E shaft with the FC oil pump.

Well i suppose the only way to find out for sure is to try, there seems to very little in the way of definative answers on here about oil and coiling!

NZConvertible

The stock FD OPR bypasses at 110psi. IIRC you'll see 90-100psi with it on an FC, which is too much. Considering what a PITA swapping an OPR is, I'd make sure not to put the wrong one in.

I thought my answers were pretty definitive...

antnicuk

i didnt realise it was that high.

i didnt mean your answers arnt definative, i'm greatful but there are lot of differing opinions on which oil coolers are better/worse, running one or 2 etc etc.

I'm not just changing the regs, i'm building a new engine and i want it to rev to 8k so i'm putting FD stationary gears and bearings and oil regs to help with the extra power and revs as i like to do track/circuit days.

A friend of mine has an REW in his TII with the stock TII oil cooler and his temps are a little high but that maybe because the cooler is duff but its taken the pressure ok for 3 years.

I'm running 380 rwhp max but on the track i run it at 350 rwhp, and the temps seem fine but i'm looking for more power and revs with the new engine (still series5 TII) so i thought i would upgrapde the oil system accordingly


What would you recomend?

arghx

iTrader: (3)

all aspects of the stock FD cooling system are pathetic. how about that shitty air separation tank that always breaks?

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Also, instead of buying a new oil pressure regulator, you can do this:

http://www.aaroncake.net/rx-7/shimoil.htm

antnicuk

thats a very usefull thread, I already have an FD one which came with the shaft and s/gears.

Do you know if i can block off the lower bajo bolt hole on the rear plate where the oil coolant line connects when i use the FD oil filter plate as thats where my coolant line will be attached.

Also, which way does the oil go, is it coming out of the back plate? and in throught the front cover or vice versa?

NZConvertible

Don't use the word "coolant". Very different thing. Very confusing.

Oil comes out the from plate, goes through the oil coolant and then goes into the back plate. There's a flow schematic in the FSM.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

Why is it that everyone says the FC can't handle the higher oil pressure of the FD regulators? "OH, the higher oil pressure pushes past the oil rings and causes smoke". BULLSHIT. Go check your part numbers at mazdatrix. The oil control metal rings, rubber orings, and springs are ALL THE SAME for FC and FD. So explain why one engine would be able to "hold more pressure" than the other? It just isn't so.

Also, I am running the FD front and rear regulators in my FC block with NO smoke whatsoever except standard startup smoke. I see about 90-100psi max pressure when warm...the gauge never seems to make it to the 110psi I'd expect to see when cold, but then again the gauge is buffered and the sender may not even be able to read that high anyway.

And to the original poster, yes the oil cooler in the FC is far superior to even the twin setup in the FD (not all FD's had 2). In stock form the FD was undercooled in all 3 departments...coolant, oil, and charge air.

Also there is no difference in eccentric shafts for FC and FD. The FD oil pump is slightly revised versus the FC turbo pump, but they are capable of operating at the same pressure and volume levels. The only thing to "convert" are the front and rear regulators.

RETed

I really question what exactly you're trying to do here?

Why are you messing with stock OEM (used?) parts, when you should be using brand new (aftermarket) stuff?
We are talking about sanctioned racing, right?
If you really can't afford aftermarket oil coolers, you really should not be racing.
Aftermarket oil coolers are priced rather well when you compare them some of the other stuff that you've already upgraded.

Why are you bothering with the FD e-shaft?
There is really no advantage, right?

Also, why are you trying to relocated the oil cooler line pick-up point on the rear iron?
Does it really bother you that it's coming from the bottom of the rear iron (more secure) that you have to run an FD oil filter pedestal (less secure, and can cause oil leaks due to stupid o-rings)?

I would try and use the stock FC oil cooler first to see if it's adequate.
You already mentioned that your oil temps are not that high.
DUCTING DOES WONDERS - YOU SHOULD TRY IT.

Then if all of that is not enough, then look at going with aftermarket oil cooler(s)...


-Ted

antnicuk

Thanks for the replies,

R/R: I did wonder why the FC shouldnt cope with more pressure as all the parts are the same as you say which is why i'm going ahead anyway.

As for the E/Shaft, i understood that the Later FD shaft had slightly different oilways to the earlier shafts, at least thats what i have been told.

TED:

I think sometimes good used OEM stuff is often a lot better than after market stuff, my e shaft, s/gears and regs all came from a very low mileage 1996 JDM car and cost me £70 which is cheaper than aftermarket parts when you include postage from the USA or Japan as no one here really stocks parts like that.

I use it for track days so its not sanctioned racing

The only reason i wanted to relocate the rear oil mounting point is because If i use the stock FD coolers and lines, they are bent already to mount up on the oil pedestal not low on the back plate. I assume there must be a reason Mazda did this as its more work and more expense to them.

Oil temps are fine at the moment but i will be running at another 1000 rpm and another 50 + hp so i thought i would try and upgrade accordingly.

There is a lot of speculation it seems as to whether or not aftermarket oil coolers are better than the stock ones, although the concensus is that one FC cooler is better than 2 FD's. ?????

What about 2 FC coolers, if so Parallel or series, the FD is in series.

Any other recomendations greatly received.

No_Rotor_RX7

i am running FD opr in my S4 TII block. (front and rear) i see 110psi when cold and usually 90 - 105 when wot after warm. no smoke

13b4me

Depends on the aftermarket oil cooler. There are some the size of a stock FC radiator.

The FC oil cooler is gargantuan in comparison to almost any other in a production car, as NZ stated. It's very well suited for the high temps we see, and is a wonderful (albeit not too well known) upgrade for many other vehicles as well. There is really no point in running dual FC coolers. Other than maybe the extra oil capacity in general. You would need some serious space for that, and you would run the risk of less airflow through other vital cooling components. It can be done, but it's alot of work for no real benefit (or necessity).

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

I am going to run an FC oil cooler on my denali when the twin turbos go on

13b4me

No way bullshitter. I call bluff.

NZConvertible

Dunno, you tell me. I stand corrected.

Maybe Ted needs to update his site, or explain it...

RETed

Actually, either Setrab or Mocal (does any of those names ring a bell?) is made locally on your side of the pond.
They are priced about US$100, so they should be cheaper for you and close to your £70 that you paid for the FD stuff...


Okay, that explains a lot...

No, there is not logically advantage to running it that way from an engineering point of view.
The oil filter pedestal is secured by a pair of 6mm studs.
Rock the pedestal hard enough, and you compromise the o-ring seals.
From an engineering point of view, the FC 13BT lower fitting on the rear iron is stronger; it also gives you more clearance for spark plugs access.
Also, the main / rear OPR is located down low in the rear iron, so you'd get "better" regulation of the oil pressure back there?


Stock for stock, if you compare the core dimensions, the stock, single FC oil cooler has the advantage - this is purely on dimensions.
Add to the fact that the single FC oil cooler is a lot simplier in design - less hose, less fittings, less things to fail - that's also an advantage.


We've done them with good success.
Try and get a hole of hIGGI since he runs them like this.

BTW, we run a pair of 10" x 12" units (Earls) on our 20B track car.


-Ted

RETed

We've had bad experiences running the oil pressure that high on FC 13B's.
We've always got the engines to smoke pretty significantly with the FD OPR's.
Others have reported no such smoking...
Go figure?


-Ted

antnicuk

Thanks for all advice guys

We run two 20b cosmo oil coolers in parallel on our 20b FD streetcar which works great. We cut out the thermo regs in them and run a seperate wax stat that opens at 80 degrees C.

Regarding the pressure and smoking, the oil control rings are the same for FD & FC so i cant see how an FC should smoke over an FD but i guess i will find out soon enough.